- From: Nigel Megitt <nigel.megitt@bbc.co.uk>
- Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 16:17:38 +0000
- To: "public-tt@w3.org" <public-tt@w3.org>
- Message-ID: <69E95D71-1BB0-4BB4-A016-683D9BACBB77@bbc.co.uk>
Thanks all for attending today's TTWG meeting. Minutes can be found in HTML format at https://www.w3.org/2020/04/23-tt-minutes.html In text format: [1]W3C [1] https://www.w3.org/ Timed Text Working Group Teleconference 23 April 2020 [2]Previous meeting. [3]Agenda. [4]IRC log. [2] https://www.w3.org/2020/04/16-tt-minutes.html [3] https://github.com/w3c/ttwg/issues/108 [4] https://www.w3.org/2020/04/23-tt-irc Attendees Present Andreas, atsushi, Gary, Nigel, Pierre Regrets Glenn Chair Gary, Nigel Scribe nigel Contents 1. [5]This meeting 2. [6]IMSC 1.2 APA responses 3. [7]APA WG comment: Requested Additional WCAG 2.1 References imsc#520 4. [8]APA WG comment: Add note on alt text imsc#521 5. [9]APA WG comment: Add introduction imsc#522 6. [10]APA WG comment: Author proposes, user disposes imsc#523 7. [11]APA WG comment: semantic layers imsc#524 8. [12]ARIB incoming liaison 9. [13]imsc/rec link 10. [14]Meeting close Meeting minutes This meeting Gary: Going over the agenda. … We have IMSC 1.2 issues, then the ARIB liaison, the TTML2 IR and then AOB. … In AOB we have maybe more TPAC planning. Any other AOB items? … If there's time I have a question about Unicode normalisation that came up earlier … today for WebVTT. … No AOB then. Nigel: New Zakim command to push yourself to the front of the queue for a quick reply. qq+ I'm first qq+ me too <Zakim> nigel, you wanted to react to a previous speaker <Zakim> I'm, you wanted to react to a previous speaker IMSC 1.2 APA responses Nigel: We got some APA responses on IMSC 1.2. Can we quickly iterate through to see … if any warrants particular discussion here or if we defer to discussion on the GitHub issues. … They are 520-524 inc. Pierre: What are doing on 519? … Does no response mean it is good? Nigel: I see that there is one pull request that addresses 519 and 520. Pierre: Maybe they're happy with the 519 part but not the 520 part? Nigel: Let's assume that. Pierre: OK that works for me, let's jump to 520. APA WG comment: Requested Additional WCAG 2.1 References imsc#520 github: [15]https://github.com/w3c/imsc/issues/520 [15] https://github.com/w3c/imsc/issues/520 Pierre: If you read success criterion 1.4.11 I thought it applied to UI components and … graphical objects, but then @gzimmermann suggests it would cover emoticon. … I'm surprised it would fall into that category. How do you draw the line between … emoticon and ideograms and Japanese Kanji. I don't know how to make the distinction. Nigel: On the basis that not everyone reading Japanese understands all the kanji just like … not everyone would understand all emoticons at first glance? Pierre: I think emoticons are treated as text just like Kanji. It's not clear where a line would be between them. Gary: It looks like text is defined as a sequence expressing something in human language. … I think emoji might be just beyond that. Pierre: The line is really fine. … There are some emojis that arguably cross that line. An emoji of a dog and the kanji … of the concept of a dog are literally identical in concept. … More importantly when I read 1.4.11 it seems like the intent is GUI elements not ideograms. … If they say it covers emojis but not other ideograms then that's fine but I want to confirm … that before doing something stupid. Nigel: I think that's a fair concern. Pierre: By the way why is the text contrast requirement higher? I would expect … it to apply to emoji just as much as the text that surrounds it. … My kids communicate half in emojis! It would be weird if they had less contrast. SUMMARY: Continue discussion on the issue, seeking clarification from @gzimmermann. Pierre: If we don't hear back soon we should aim to have a joint meeting to close on this … more quickly. Nigel: Yes. APA WG comment: Add note on alt text imsc#521 github: [16]https://github.com/w3c/imsc/issues/521 [16] https://github.com/w3c/imsc/issues/521 Nigel: @gzimmermann proposed some text. Pierre: I opened a pull request a few minutes ago. … I didn't duplicate the proposal verbatim because some of it was already in the paragraph above. … I did use the term consumer to contrast with the note about authors. SUMMARY: Continue discussion by review of the pull request w3c/imsc#542 APA WG comment: Add introduction imsc#522 github: [17]https://github.com/w3c/imsc/issues/522 [17] https://github.com/w3c/imsc/issues/522 Nigel: @gzimmermann has answered your question Pierre that §5.1 is a good starting … point for an introduction. Pierre: I'd like to close #542 knowing we've go that right, and then begin work on an … introduction. … I hate introductions and I'm worried it will take a long time, because everyone has a … different idea of what is needed and what accessibility means but if it is needed then … we should do it. My recommendation is we do this last. Nigel: We've discussed Explainers before, and I think it would be a good start to … use the Explainer structure so that someone coming in from a cold start can read … the introduction as an explainer and get a pretty good idea of what the spec is, … how it might be used and how it fits with other work. Pierre: I'm reluctant to start listing use cases because there are so many different ideas … for them globally. For example look at the WebVTT intro and it says "see MAUR". Nigel: That's fine, maybe that is all that's needed to set the context. Pierre: Alright, I'm happy to pull all the introductory text into a single introduction section. Gary: Yes Introductions are hard, it makes sense to do it last, definitely. Pierre: The positive way I am looking at it is that it might make sense to bring the informative … text together in one introduction. It might improve the document. That part I'm excited by. Andreas: I agree with Pierre that it is really hard to cover all the use cases. … Possibly something like MDN is a good place to look for more details about practical … use cases. Nigel: Add an informative link to the MDN docs? Andreas: No not a proposal for a solution but just a point that some of the information … should be somewhere else like MDN. … Adding a link to it is a different question for us to consider. SUMMARY: @palemieux to propose a pull request with an introduction after the other APA issues have been resolved. APA WG comment: Author proposes, user disposes imsc#523 github: [18]https://github.com/w3c/imsc/issues/523 [18] https://github.com/w3c/imsc/issues/523 Pierre: There's a PR open but no comment on that. … I feel the work I put in is being ignored! Nigel: @gzimmermann does reference the pull request #527 so I think he has actually … noticed it, but added the comment to the issue not the pull request. Pierre: Anyway I agree with your answer Nigel. Nigel: It looks like there is support for my proposal on #527. I see that I haven't re-reviewed … since you addressed my comment, not sure why. Pierre: Hopefully I did exactly what you proposed. Nigel: Then the 2nd comment needs some thought about what we do. … I think Pierre agreed, I want to know if there is consensus in the group or another … proposal that we can be more positive with. Andreas: I think it is impossible to meet the requirement and think of every possible … user customisation and author in this way. It is not really possible. Nigel: Then are you suggesting not making a change? Andreas: It is hard to see how you can make a change. … Are you proposing adding a note explaining the limit of how authors can anticipate … user customisation? Nigel: I'm not proposing that. Gary: Also isn't it the renderer that gives the users the capability of controlling the … presentation? Nigel: Yes it is. Gary: So the author doesn't really have any control there at all. Nigel: That's my understanding. Gary: Other than trying to make it simpler so there's not a whole bunch of stuff to override, … but as you mention there's a limit to how far people should be taking that. Nigel: There is an example we talked about before, where the semantic organisation … of content affects the ability to customise presentation. … The example we've hit at the BBC is the ability to reduce text size. If each line of text … is in a separate region then proportionally the lines get spaced further apart as the … text size is reduced, but if the text is all in the same p, then the lines get closer together … and the result is much more pleasing. That's just one example. I don't know how to … write this down in a useful way. Andreas: To meet the requirement you possibly need to agree on a certain pattern on … how to write documents. To then give recommendations for how to be prepared for … user customisation at presentation time. Nigel: Possibly a statement we could make is that it is likely to be easier for presentation … processors to apply customisations if the content is organised semantically. Andreas: Can you explain what you mean? Nigel: Yes, I'm referring to dialogue, say, being all in the same p for the same person, … rather than broken up and targeted purely at a particular presentation paradigm. Andreas: That's really hard, and unsolved. For example OSes like Android and iOS have … different systems for presenting text. There's no concept for how this is brought together … with subtitle and caption formats. It would be good to have the concept there but it … is not existing yet so for our part, delivering the technical capability to deliver subtitles, … it is really difficult to give any more advice now. Nigel: Checking in then, is there some action we can take to address the second bullet? Pierre: I don't know what we can write. The user does not need permission from the author. … I don't know how that is useful for anybody. Nigel: Any objections to us disposing to do nothing in response to the second bullet? Pierre: I certainly don't object to that. Nigel: I hear no objections so I think that's our agreed way forward. SUMMARY: TTWG has not identified any way to address @gzimmermann's second bullet; review of #527 to continue with a view to merging. APA WG comment: semantic layers imsc#524 github: [19]https://github.com/w3c/imsc/issues/524 [19] https://github.com/w3c/imsc/issues/524 Nigel: I think the proposal here is that we agree to hold a joint meeting with whoever … wants to attend, and that we will make no change to IMSC 1.2 to address this. Pierre: I guess they're not objecting to deferring this? Nigel: Agreed, that's my reading anyway. SUMMARY: TTWG would like to participate in a joint meeting to progress this, and will make no changes in IMSC 1.2 to try to address this. ARIB incoming liaison [20]ARIB incoming liaison [20] https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-tt/2020Apr/0000.html github: [21]https://github.com/w3c/ttwg/issues/116 [21] https://github.com/w3c/ttwg/issues/116 Nigel: Is there anything we can action in IMSC 1.2 or requirements for v.next? Pierre: The easy one is character set but that is a normative part of IMSC so we can't … easily do it in 1.2. I think this came too late to deal with in IMSC 1.2 … We should probably do the character set one at some point - that seems like low hanging fruit. … The rest: it is hard to understand if it is an encouragement to try to seek convergence … or just some input that says "we're already doing this, you might want to". It is unclear. Andreas: Yes, and it would be important to find out. … If they have an interest in convergence then it would really make sense to build a liaison … with a common goal, but that's a big question. Pierre: It is also really formal. Thinking out loud, TTWG could try to find a way to have … a more interactive discussion. Is this an invitation to seek convergence on a future … version of IMSC in ARIB B62 or is this just input for TTWG's benefit only. Nigel: The easy thing is to ask them, to respond with a liaison to say thank you, … we can't do this in IMSC 1.2, but we could in IMSC 1.3 and what is their timeline. Andreas: Yes, sounds good but we all know liaison process can be very slow. … I propose to consider what Pierre said and try a less formal way to have a conversation, … maybe with the Chairs or Editors, to get a feeling what is the way to go. That may help. Nigel: OK that sounds like a good idea, I can try to use the contacts I have. Pierre: Maybe the formal nature of this suggests they want to know it is being taken … seriously. Maybe a formal invitation to collaborate with W3C would help. I've seen something … like this before. Maybe that's their expectation, and the answer would be different … if W3C invites them to collaborate rather than individuals talking. Food for thought. Atsushi: I fully agree that this is a quite formal comment and with this statement. … Maybe a formal reply and conversation is their intention. Nigel: I think I need to think about this more. Pierre: Has there been formal collaboration between W3C and ARIB in the past? Nigel: I do not know. Pierre: Atsushi, maybe you could look into that, maybe asking the staff if this has … happened in the past. Atsushi: For now I can only say that there is a liaison relationship between us and them, … so in any case we can communicate to them about that. … For some case I need to dig out something. SUMMARY: Discussed in call today, Chairs to consider potential next steps, @himorin to look into history of collaboration with ARIB and W3C. imsc/rec link Nigel: We have a way forward for this. I haven't checked if it has been done yet. Atsushi: I sent an email but if I get approval for the HTML5 I will replace it. Nigel: Do you need anything from us? Atsushi: Just a check. Nigel: I think I already checked it and said it looks good. Atsushi: Then I will work on replacing it. Nigel: Thank you. Meeting close Nigel: We're out of time for today, so let's adjourn for today, meet again next week. … Thanks everyone. 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Received on Thursday, 23 April 2020 16:17:55 UTC