- From: Nigel Megitt <nigel.megitt@bbc.co.uk>
- Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2019 16:32:01 +0000
- To: Timed Text Working Group <public-tt@w3.org>
- Message-ID: <D996F6FB.4D31C%nigel.megitt@bbc.co.uk>
Thanks all for attending today’s TTWG meeting. Minutes can be found in HTML format at https://www.w3.org/2019/09/05-tt-minutes.html
Please note that we will not have a call on 2019-09-12 – our next meetings will be at TPAC.
In text format:
[1]W3C
[1] http://www.w3.org/
Timed Text Working Group Teleconference
05 Sep 2019
[2]Agenda
[2] https://github.com/w3c/ttwg/issues/61
See also: [3]IRC log
[3] https://www.w3.org/2019/09/05-tt-irc
Attendees
Present
Gary, Cyril, Nigel, Xabier_Rodríguez_Calvar, Pierre,
Glenn, atsushi
Regrets
Andreas, Atsushi_first_hour, Pierre_first_hour,
Glenn_first_hour
Chair
Nigel
Scribe
Cyril, nigel
Contents
* [4]Topics
1. [5]this meeting
2. [6]Check open issues for WebVTT are raised ttwg#51
3. [7]Discussion snapshot w3c/webvtt#460
4. [8]CfC for new CR?
5. [9]TPAC Planning
6. [10]Request a meeting at TPAC with Chinese IG #60
7. [11]Discussion points for CSS WG at TPAC 2019 #52
8. [12]TPAC Planning - Topics and schedule
9. [13]Add support for #font w3c/imsc#485
10. [14]TTWG Charter review
11. [15]next meeting
* [16]Summary of Action Items
* [17]Summary of Resolutions
__________________________________________________________
<cyril> scribe: Cyril
<scribe> chair: Nigel
<scribe> Agenda: [18]https://github.com/w3c/ttwg/issues/61
[18] https://github.com/w3c/ttwg/issues/61
this meeting
nigel: we have webvtt, imsc, tpac and aob, including charter
status
... with the absents, I'm not sure we'll cover everything
cyril: I'd like to review the timelines for our deliverables,
to set some goals for TPAC
Check open issues for WebVTT are raised ttwg#51
nigel: the first point is action 51
[19]https://github.com/w3c/ttwg/issues/51
[19] https://github.com/w3c/ttwg/issues/51
<nigel> [20]Minutes relating to #51
[20] https://www.w3.org/2019/06/27-tt-minutes.html#x02
nigel: it's to make sure the comments raised during the first
CfC were raised as issues
gkatsev: I checked all tests that did not have 2 or more passes
and created an issue
... marked with [IR] and there were 7 of them
nigel: I see that was done on July 3rd
<nigel> [21]Issues created with [IR]
[21] https://github.com/w3c/webvtt/issues?utf8=✓&q=is:issue+[IR]
nigel: is that done then?
gkatsev: yes, I think we can close that
cyril: was this the only comment during CR
gkatsev: yes
summary: issue can be closed
<nigel> github-bot, end topic
<calvaris> Xabier
<calvaris> calvaris@igalia.com
Discussion snapshot w3c/webvtt#460
<nigel> github: [22]https://github.com/w3c/webvtt/pull/460
[22] https://github.com/w3c/webvtt/pull/460
gkatsev: there is a bunch of changes in the snapshot
... I wanted to go through and categorize them according to the
W3C Process document
nigel: which one is the right list?
gkatsev: changes.html
<gkatsev> [23]list of changes
[23] https://htmlpreview.github.io/?https://github.com/gkatsev/webvtt/blob/at-risk-june/archives/2019-09-01/changes.html
nigel: normally the technical changes would be the substantive
one
gkatsev: we can review the at-risk ones
nigel: I'd be interested to a staff view on that
gkatsev: the "make vtt lines be a long" one is changing the
WebIDL for the lines property from an unsigned long to a long
nigel: it has 2 GitHub issues
gkatsev: one is the PR and the other one is the issue
... 457 is the issue
... and 461 fixes 457 as well
nigel: the change document lists the github issues, so you
might want to change the first one to 457 and remove the
editorial dup
gkatsev: yes, I'll do that
nigel: that is indeed substantive
gkatsev: from a process perspective, that is a correction that
does not add new features
... next one is "Update region lines parsing to round to +/-
MAX_VALUE"
... it's based on the current implementation in Safari
... the mozilla people are on board with that change
... it is a correction that does not add new features
nigel: yes, that is not a new feature
... but it is definitely substantive
... it's worth pointing to the issue 467
gkatsev: I'll do that for the at risk ones also
... next one is changing editors
nigel: obviously editorial
... then you have the at risk ones
... and the last was a dup, we discussed it
... so there was no change made for the [IR] issues?
gkatsev: a lot of them are already covered by these changes
[going through the IR issues]
<nigel> I'm on #465
gkatsev: Safari for this one, the region parser is correct, but
the way you interact is not
nigel: are they going to fix that?
gkatsev: I hope so
nigel: I mean during the CR period
... you could get stuck in CR because of this
... one route out could be for Safari to remove the prefix
... another route is to mark it at risk
... another one would be to tweak the test
... on the last one I'm a bit uneasy because we would not be
testing the spec
gkatsev: if it's parsing correctly, that means the test should
pass
... but it's failing after it's parsing
nigel: we have members from apple in this group
... we should be going to them
... Eric would be a good person
... asking: is this something they might fix in the developer
preview
gkatsev: I'll reach out to them
... 463 is similar, weird implementation in Safari
nigel: the resolution for this one is not marked at risk
... so what's our exit plan
gkatsev: we should talk to Apple
... we could mark regions at risk but removing it would not be
good
nigel: depending on their response, we may need to tweak the
spec or just wait until they are done with it
... the last one is 464
... entities test failing
... we don't have an exit plan for this issue
... if this continues, do we have any other implementation that
would pass?
gkatsev: I think vtt.js may support it
... also we can try doing what we discussed the lines
attribute, split up the test in 2 portions
... and say the core part passes
... but the first thing is to see how vtt.js fares
... I could tweak it
nigel: we have a clearer understanding about the snapshot
... there is some action needed because we don't want to go
back to CR again
Xabier: when you speak about regions, are they CSS regions?
gkatsev: no, WebVTT regions
nigel: it's a good question, what's the relationship between
the 2
calvaris: is there are relationship?
gkatsev: I don't think so
CfC for new CR?
gkatsev: we just answered it, more work is needed before that
... and worst case we can talk to Apple about that
nigel: is it just Apple? or could it be that support from
Firefox or Chrome would help
gkatsev: Chrome just started implemented inline styles, maybe
we can convince them to work on regions
... or Microsoft with Chromium+Edge
nigel: anything else on WebVTT?
TPAC Planning
nigel: we have a number of sub-parts to that agenda item
... the meeting with the Chinese IG
Request a meeting at TPAC with Chinese IG #60
<nigel> github: [24]https://github.com/w3c/ttwg/issues/60
[24] https://github.com/w3c/ttwg/issues/60
nigel: I requested this at the proposal of
... Fuchao got back to us and suggested Friday afternoon
... they want us to join because they are a larger group
... Andreas initially suggested Thursday but that got deleted
... this is to discuss Danmaku
cyril: Is it ging to be the last session on the Friday
afternoon
nigel: not clear yet
... the meeting will be in chinese and the essential points
will be translated by volunteers
cyril: I would prefer if we would wrap our meeting not with a
joint meeting
nigel: so maybe after lunch
... the action is back to me
SUMMARY: the group would like to meet the Chinese IG in the
afternoon, preferably not at the end of the day
<nigel> github-bot, end topic
gkatsev: this will be my first TPAC and I'm interested in the
Media WGwhich is also Thursday and Friday
cyril: me too ...
nigel: there are clashes with other groups (accessibility, ...)
... it's difficult to schedule the meeting
... I can't resolve your clash Gary!
Discussion points for CSS WG at TPAC 2019 #52
github: [25]https://github.com/w3c/ttwg/issues/52
[25] https://github.com/w3c/ttwg/issues/52
nigel: the list as it stands has a bunch of CSS issues and one
TTML one at the moment
... the TTML one is about text-combine
... then shearing
... then equivalent of multiRowAlign
... then about background area with fillLineGap
... and for that one there is a proposed solution
... then padding at start and end of line
... but the issue is closed
... and last one is images with layout information, like Apple
Pay logo
... I think there is another one about accessibility
... there is a CSS WG issue which concerns making something
invisible on a visual presentation but visible to screen
readers
... there seem to be quite a few requirement on this
... CSS WG issue 560
<nigel> [26][css-display] create a display property value for
visually hiding an element while making it available for AT
#560
[26] https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/560
nigel: and that is connected to an IMSC issue that I raised
recently
... to expose burned-in narrative text to a screen reader
... sighted people can see it but we want to put that in a ARIA
live region
pal: we also issue 44 from IMSC
nigel: it is in the GitHub list
... about TPAC planning, I have an email from Alan, one of the
CSS WG chairs
... proposing at 9:30 on Tuesday morning
... I'm going to say yes
... regarding the M&E IG, they listed 2 topics
... but there are lot more topics we could talk about
... live, karaoke, danmaku, ...
... and we could think about MSE and text tracks
... because MSE only supports audio/video
... those are my suggestions
... but we have a limited amount of time
... are there other topics or prioritization views?
cyril: when will the new text track api be discussed
<nigel> [27]M&E IG agenda
[27] https://www.w3.org/2011/webtv/wiki/Face_to_face_meeting_during_TPAC_2019#16:00_-_17:00_Timed_Text_Working_Group_joint_meeting
pal: on wednesday
nigel: there is a request for break out sessions and a request
for demo
... do we want to raise the text track api with the M&E IG?
cyril: no
gkatsev: we need to check what is the overlap between the M&E
IG, the Media WG and the TTWG
nigel: that's exactly the sort of thing that the M&E IG should
discuss, I'll ping Chris
TPAC Planning - Topics and schedule
nigel: Cyril raised goals at the beginning of this meeting
<nigel> scribe: nigel
Nigel: Did you have something in mind Cyril?
Cyril: We initially wanted heartbeat publications of our spec
and we deviated from that.
... We still have a goal to publish regularly so we should aim
to publish soon
... TPAC should be the opportunity to really wrap up and work
towards publishing as soon as possible.
Nigel: Makes sense to me
Cyril: Maybe a good goal is to agree to publish FPWDs of the
specs after TPAC.
Nigel: Yes, there is a publication moratorium around TPAC, but
that shouldn't stop us making a resolution.
<cyril> scribe: Cyril
nigel: we have a list of topics but an empty schedule
... I want to know if there are other topics not listed
... and if there are any constraints
pal: the only constraints I have is that I have to leave at 6pm
on Thursday
... I won't be available at all on Friday
<calvaris> I have to leave now! see you next time (if my agenda
allows it)
pal: the embedded font feature should really be closed either
before TPAC or at TPAC
nigel: so we should try to do as much as we can on Thursday so
that we can join the other groups on Friday
... we could also move WebVTT on Friday
... action on me and gary to come up with an agenda
<nigel> [28]Issue for Nigel and Gary
[28] https://github.com/w3c/ttwg/issues/67
nigel: there is an option for demo
... andreas asked for a joint demo from the TTWG
... any question on this demo topic?
Add support for #font w3c/imsc#485
github: [29]https://github.com/w3c/imsc/pull/485
[29] https://github.com/w3c/imsc/pull/485
nigel: we resolved to support OTF only
... since then a couple of things have come up
... where to list the supported types in a way that can be
referenced
... one idea was to use some sort of feature designation
... another is a registry of type
... if we do the feature designation, the question is where
would it be
... I suggested that we could do a module for that
glenn: I like that option
... we have already a feature designation for PNG
... in TTML2
nigel: we could potentially move that out of TTML2 and put it
somewhere else
... it's a feature at the moment not an extension
[30]font/otf mime type definition
[30] https://www.iana.org/assignments/media-types/font/otf
nigel: now that we can pull in media of different types
... one way to constrain what a processor supports is to have a
feature designation for that
... it's not core to TTML itself
cyril: are we going to define a feature request for all audio
codecs?
nigel: I was suggesting to do it on requests, not pro-actively
... but we can discuss it
pal: my vote is to keep it simple and constrain the list of
supported mime types in IMSC
... I don't object to create a module or registry
nigel: so just say in IMSC the following formats are supported
pal: yes
nigel: that makes sense
glenn: even in IMSC you need feature designation that match
capabilities
... if you were to add support for OTF to #font feature that
would be going beyond what #font defines
... either you stick with what we have today or diverge
... right now all features in TTML or IMSC are attached to
feature designations
pal: are you saying that the #font feature in TTML2 is purely
syntactic support, parsing the font element?
glenn: right now it only requires support for the syntax, no
requirement for any font decoder
pal: I'm happy to not define any extension in IMSC and just say
the font format we support
... or to define an extension in IMSC that signals specific
font support
... or to define an external module
... or to define an external registry
... but we need to make a decision
<Zakim> nigel, you wanted to add an option for a ttp:types
element with a ttp:type child (1..*) under profile
glenn: in my opinion, the best option is to use feature
designation
nigel: we could add a new element to the profile element,
adding a ttp:types attribute
glenn: you're suggesting a new element
nigel: yes, following the same pattern we have today
glenn: it's worth thinking about it
... in some way it introduces yet another mechanism for
defining functional support
... we have feature and extension and we would have a 3rd thing
... but for IMSC there may be shorter options
nigel: the easiest path is simply to list it in the IMSC spec
cyril: I would favor this option
nigel: let's keep discussing that point
... on the topic of formats, compressing fonts is an important
features
... we should allow for WOFF
... I'm proposing to add support for WOFF
cyril: my point is that OTF is broad, it includes TTF, CFF, SVG
outlines
... and also WOFF has a new version WOFF2
pal: I'm happy as long as we can feedback from implementers
cyril: is there an option where we do not specify in IMSC and
let applications specify it
pal: maybe a minimum
... and not preclude other types
glenn: we could also mandate support for specific open source
fonts
TTWG Charter review
<inserted> Nigel: Please remind your AC rep to vote. When is
the deadline Atsushi?
<atsushi> > The deadline for responses is 23:59, Boston time on
2019-09-10.
next meeting
nigel: we will not have a meeting next week, our next meeting
will be at TPAC
<nigel> scribe: nigel
Nigel: Thanks everyone, we got through a lot today. See you in
Japan! [adjourns meeting]
Summary of Action Items
Summary of Resolutions
[End of minutes]
__________________________________________________________
Minutes manually created (not a transcript), formatted by
David Booth's [31]scribe.perl version 1.154 ([32]CVS log)
$Date: 2019/09/05 16:28:35 $
[31] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm
[32] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/
Received on Thursday, 5 September 2019 16:32:28 UTC