- From: Nigel Megitt <nigel.megitt@bbc.co.uk>
- Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2019 16:30:44 +0000
- To: TTWG <public-tt@w3.org>
- Message-ID: <D94D22AE.490C3%nigel.megitt@bbc.co.uk>
Thanks all for attending today’s TTWG meeting. Minutes can be found in HTML format at https://www.w3.org/2019/07/11-tt-minutes.html
Note that we made one Resolution today (outside of GitHub issues and pull requests):
Resolved: update the IMSC 1.1 Rec
The review period for this resolution under our Decision policy ends on 2019-07-25.
In text format:
[1]W3C
[1] https://www.w3.org/
Timed Text Working Group Teleconference
11 July 2019
[2]Agenda. [3]IRC log.
[2] https://github.com/w3c/ttwg/issues/47
[3] https://www.w3.org/2019/07/11-tt-irc
Attendees
Present
Andreas, Atsushi, Gary, Glenn, Nigel, Philippe, Pierre
Regrets
Cyril
Chair
Nigel
Scribe
nigel, plh
Contents
* [4]Meeting minutes
1. [5]This meeting
2. [6]tts:extent, region and the style element imsc#475
3. [7]corrections for IMSC 1.1
4. [8]TTML2 #1101
5. [9]Supporting "not within an EM" at
text-combine-upright and tts:textCombine for 縦中横
'tate-chu-yoko' ttml2#1127
6. [10]Charter status
7. [11]Next meeting
* [12]Summary of resolutions
Meeting minutes
<nigel> nigel has changed the topic to: TTWG weekly webex.
Today 1500 UTC. Agenda for 2019-07-11: [13]https://github.com/
w3c/ttwg/issues/47
[13] https://github.com/w3c/ttwg/issues/47
<nigel> Log: [14]https://www.w3.org/2019/07/11-tt-irc
[14] https://www.w3.org/2019/07/11-tt-irc
This meeting
Nigel: we have some status on WebVTT to cover
Gary: not much progress. let's drop it.
Nigel: an issue on IMSC
… and a PR on TTML2
… and status update on charter
… any other business?
Pierre: there is 1127 on TTML2
Nigel: does it need prep?
Pierre: would be good to start the discussion on how to extend
TTML2
Nigel: ok
Pierre: also we need to approve the corrections on IMSC 1.1
Nigel: ok.
Pierre: those were typos in IMSC 1.1
Pierre: the PRs on IMSC 1.2 needs to be backported on IMSC 1.1
Pierre: also TPAC prep
tts:extent, region and the style element imsc#475
Nigel: that's IMSC issue #475
<nigel> github: [15]https://github.com/w3c/imsc/issues/475
[15] https://github.com/w3c/imsc/issues/475
Nigel: one of them if whether it's ok to include an element
style
… and the syntax permitted in the extend attribute
… 2 possible interpretation in the spec
<nigel> [16]§8.4.2 of IMSC 1.1
[16] https://www.w3.org/TR/ttml-imsc1.1/#text-extent-region
[...]
Glenn: two 2 issues, style element child of region
… and one of the values of extend
… constrained by #extend-region
Nigel: let's settle the most recent one first
… values of the extend attribute
… does anyone disagree that the intent was to disallow auto?
Pierre: looked back at my notes and that was the case
Nigel: are you clear on the editorial change?
Pierre: happy to clarify this in my proposal. it's there
already
Glenn: one alternative: ...
Pierre: that proposal doesn't take into account the issue
raised my Cyril. to permit referenced styling as well as nested
Glenn: ok. happy to amend my proposal
Pierre: I'll take that into account when generating the PR
Nigel: ok. we prohibit auto and we allow nested style element
… is that true for extend origin?
… we talk about position attributes...
… the problem is the constraint on the element
Pierre: we could interpret it as forbidding referencial and
nested style. same thing for position.
Nigel: whether it's style or region doesn't make a difference.
Pierre: if we use the term specified value, we'll want to do
the same for origin and position
Pierre: what about default region?
… my proposal addresses it as well
Nigel: I'll review it in the PR
Pierre: in an image profile, there must be a region. a default
region can only exist if there is no images
… there is text related to width/height depending on the region
element, thus implying there is a region
Nigel: we should adjust to say it's the specified extent of the
region element...
Pierre: I'll address it in the PR as well
Nigel: summary: Pierre will create a PR to address all of the
points on the issue
corrections for IMSC 1.1
<nigel> github-bot, end topic
[17]email
[17] https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-tt/2019Jun/0075.html
Pierre: apply those commits to the IMSC 1 REC
Nigel: first one fix the reference to TTML2. second fixes a bug
in a regex.
… second one is informative
Proposal: update the IMSC 1.1 Recommendation with the fixes in
[18]https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-tt/2019Jun/
0075.html
[18] https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-tt/2019Jun/0075.html
Glenn: should we have an errata for those?
Nigel: we do have an errata process
Plh: the changes were minor enough not to require through the
errata
Resolved: update the IMSC 1.1 Rec
TTML2 #1101
<nigel> github: [19]https://github.com/w3c/ttml2/pull/1101
[19] https://github.com/w3c/ttml2/pull/1101
Nigel: proposal is to move ahead with the changes but with
shortening the text in the note
Proposal: make the changes in #1101 with a shorter note
reference
Resolved
Glenn: I'll need someone to approve the PR
Nigel: sure
… was just holding until we have group consensus. will merge
as-is.
… will close relevant issues as well
Pierre: I guess we'll close #1100 and part of #1043
… do we want to keep #1043 but narrow the scope to the style
properties?
… not all style properties have been taken care of
… so we open a new issue or narrow #1043
Nigel: let's open a new one
… will need some discussion with the CSS WG
… make sure to double check #0143 before closing it and open a
new one.
Glenn: ok to close #1043. also we should have 3 separate issues
for the style properties
… will be a lot easier
… I would prefer to be the one to create them
Pierre: sure.
Pierre: we should close #1071
Nigel: ok
Pierre: I'll wait for #1100 to be closed and the 3 news ones to
be open before closing #1071
Glenn: let's reopen #1089
… I'll merge 1101 and 1089 after the call
Pierre: for bidi, you might want to create one issue instead of
2
Glenn: sure.
Nigel: looking #1127
<nigel> github-bot, end topic
Supporting "not within an EM" at text-combine-upright and
tts:textCombine for 縦中横 'tate-chu-yoko' ttml2#1127
<nigel> github: [20]https://github.com/w3c/ttml2/issues/1127
[20] https://github.com/w3c/ttml2/issues/1127
Glenn: this started as a question which I answered with the
current state. we allow both.
… impls can choose any techniques they want
… we don't give a preference
… the commenter asked for an enhancement
… so it's a request for a new feature
… should be added to TTML3
… comes under our ruby extension module
… but we would be ahead of CSS
… so, couldn't translate into CSS if we do this
Nigel: requirement is for enhancement for japanese subtitles
<nigel> [21]Enhancements for Japanese subtitles
[21] https://github.com/w3c/tt-reqs/issues/12
Nigel: we agreed to work with the CSS Working Group on this
requirement
Pierre: sounds good.
… I think it's a use case. does anybody think it's not a valid
use case?
Glenn: I worked in the print industry in the past, with
explicit author control for this type of behaviors
… it's out there in the industry
… content creators would think they should be be able to do the
same.
… at the same time, TTMl2 is reasonable
… some impls will go outside the em
… so I'm ok to keep as-is but also ok with enhancing if CSS are
ok with it
Pierre: would be good to share your experience
… citing those use cases will be important to help the CSS WG
make a decision
Glenn: sure
Glenn: Steve Zilles did research on this in the past and wrote
documents about this
Pierre: let's add the data points before communicating with the
CSS WG
Glenn: ok
<nigel> SUMMARY: TTWG will look at this in the context of a
future Japanese enhancement module for TTML, in consultation
with the CSS WG
<nigel> github-bot, end topic
Pierre: can we open an issue on the TTWG repo on those CSS
issues?
… we have on text level 4
… #50
[22]Check with CSS WG about Text Level 4
[22] https://github.com/w3c/ttwg/issues/50
<nigel> [23]Discussion points for CSS WG at TPAC 2019 #52
[23] https://github.com/w3c/ttwg/issues/52
Nigel: I opened #52
Charter status
plh: Aim to get submission to AC on Wednesday next week. Under
review by W3M.
… I sent two pull requests, one going against the views of the
group about the charter template.
… The HR wording surprised people, so I thought we should
revert.
… I made it as a pull request. I am aware that our strategy
team talked about it earlier this week
… so I don't know which wording will be sent for review.
… At the end of the day you guys will have another chance to
push back during the AC review.
… Another piece of info - the accessibility people never
commented on the Charter even though I didn't ask them.
… They got scared about the danmaku proposal in the Chinese IG
charter.
… I told them I believe the new Charter will allow TTWG to work
on it without rechartering.
… My position is until we know it is an actual thing for the
TTWG we should not list it in the Charter.
… And we don't have a document to link to.
Pierre: A number of us have tried to get more information even
privately but have not got any information.
plh: The Chinese IG is working on translating their document
into English.
… We want to motivate them to come to TPAC prepared.
… It could also be in the scope of the Media WG because their
proposal mentions APIs.
… It is very much up in the air still.
Pierre: I don't see APIs being outside the scope of this group.
Philippe: Current thinking is to have the discussion at TPAC.
… Our Chinese team has been reaching out to the Media WG but it
is quite new so it may take a while.
… We should either host a meeting during the TTWG session at
TPAC or go to the Media WG room.
… We want the Chinese IG to present their proposal.
Pierre: I will be at TPAC Tuesday through Thursday.
plh: I will try to make sure it happens on Thursday
… I can't offer Wednesday because people don't like reserved
spaces during the breakout
… Of course someone could raise it on the Wednesday at the time
Glenn: On APIs we actually had two API draft documents that
never went anywhere in TTML2 for defining APIs for
… a TimedTextCue interface based on Text Track Cue, so we did
start some work before.
plh: Also for those APIs depending on how much they
monkey-patch the HTML algorithm the WHATWG may claim it is
… part of HTML.
Pierre: That could be an end result but we have tried to work
so hard to align the work of timed text in this group so
… we should not go backwards, even if we submit a complete
proposal to the HTML WG or WHATWG or whatever.
plh: I expect us to make good progress on TPAC but not to
affect our Charter.
… Unless you guys tell us otherwise.
Nigel: I don't expect that, because we can't - we don't even
know the requirements.
plh: OK. The accessibility guys are excited about it and want
to be part of the discussion.
Pierre: We will need to coordinate with Digital Cinema as we
have done before because that is widely used in China.
Next meeting
<plh> Nigel: let's defer TPAC prep to next week
Pierre: Thanks everyone. [adjourns meeting]
… PS thank you Philippe for scribing
Summary of resolutions
1. [24]update the IMSC 1.1 Rec
Minutes manually created (not a transcript), formatted by
Bert Bos's [25]scribe.perl version Mon Apr 15 13:11:59 2019
UTC, a reimplementation of David Booth's [26]scribe.perl. See
[27]history.
[25] https://w3c.github.io/scribe2/scribedoc.html
[26] https://dev.w3.org/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm
[27] https://github.com/w3c/scribe2/commits/master/scribe.perl
Received on Thursday, 11 July 2019 16:31:10 UTC