- From: Nigel Megitt <nigel.megitt@bbc.co.uk>
- Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2019 16:33:26 +0000
- To: Timed Text Working Group <public-tt@w3.org>
- Message-ID: <D9720D34.4B2D7%nigel.megitt@bbc.co.uk>
Thanks all for attending todays TTWG meeting. Minutes can be found in HTML format at https://www.w3.org/2019/08/08-tt-minutes.html
In text format:
[1]W3C
[1] https://www.w3.org/
Timed Text Working Group Teleconference
08 August 2019
[2]Agenda. [3]IRC log.
[2] https://github.com/w3c/ttwg/issues/54
[3] https://www.w3.org/2019/08/08-tt-irc
Attendees
Present
Andreas, Atsushi, Glenn, Nigel, Pierre
Regrets
Cyril, Gary
Chair
Nigel
Scribe
nigel
Contents
* [4]Meeting minutes
1. [5]This meeting
2. [6]Remove application of tts:rubyPosition to ruby
annotation text. ttml2#945
3. [7]The set element is included in [resolve computed
styles]. ttml2#950
4. [8]Missing test for #region-timing. ttml2-tests#203
5. [9]TTWG Charter status
6. [10]TPAC Planning
7. [11]CLDR
8. [12]i18n labels
9. [13]Font support and forced display in IMSC
10. [14]Meeting close
Meeting minutes
Log: [15]https://www.w3.org/2019/08/08-tt-irc
[15] https://www.w3.org/2019/08/08-tt-irc
This meeting
Nigel: [iterates through agenda]
Nigel: AOB? Any particular points to raise on this agenda?
group: no other business
Remove application of tts:rubyPosition to ruby annotation text.
ttml2#945
github: [16]https://github.com/w3c/ttml2/issues/945
[16] https://github.com/w3c/ttml2/issues/945
Glenn: I posted a comment recently. I tried to do a quick 30
minute review and it's somewhat complicated.
There's a premise that somehow we're doing something
different than CSS is.
That was the point of departure for Pierre to file this
originally I think.
1. I don't think the documented CSS model which I linked to
in my comments in the issue is very mature yet.
It has a lot of conceptual and semantic issues. It's quite
difficult to understand and in order to really get a handle
on what Pierre is trying to say, one has to have a deep
understanding of that document and what it is trying to say.
So I'm not sure that there is a problem here at this point
and it may be that if either myself or Pierre can get up to
speed
on the details of this issue we might we able to have a
sidebar with Koji or Elika at TPAC to try to hash it out but
I know I personally have to get it back in my head and review
the current CSS WD.
I don't think we can take any more action on it at this
point.
2. I don't have any test content from Pierre that would show
there is something broken here which I would like to see
before I understand that there's a problem or not.
He does refer to a codepen in some early comments so I need
to go back and look at that because this came up
when he was doing some ruby implementation work in imsc.js.
Without doing that I cannot give more detail.
The basic top level question he was asking is if we need ruby
position to apply to the top level ruby containers as well
as the ruby text containers and my original response to that
was that we need it to apply to the top level ruby
container in the case that the author did not use the ruby
text container but used ruby text as children directly of the
top level ruby container. That was the original motivation
for saying that it applies.
Pierre: [arrives]
Nigel: Proposal is to discuss this at TPAC, either in our
meeting, our joint CSS WG meeting or in a separate session less
formally.
Pierre: Sounds good to me.
SUMMARY: Needs closer discussion with CSS experts to work out
what needs to be done, to schedule for TPAC.
The set element is included in [resolve computed styles]. ttml2#950
github: [17]https://github.com/w3c/ttml2/issues/950
[17] https://github.com/w3c/ttml2/issues/950
Nigel: [Summarises older comments on issue] It wasn't clear if
any change was being proposed, one option is to close it.
Glenn: If anyone can provide test content showing the current
text is broken then we could reopen it.
Pierre: We are also doing editorial improvements, so this might
fit in that category.
Glenn: I marked it as substantive because it requires changing
the substance of one of the algorithms.
As you've asked for, with any substantive change we should
have test material.
Pierre: It may be that the outcome of the algorithm is the
same, as you already argued, so in that case it could be
editorial.
An editorial clarification perhaps.
Glenn: I haven't seen any proposed language for that, if you
would like to propose a note that would clarify something
for the reader, I would be happy to consider that and
downgrading this to be editorial.
Pierre: Happy to be assigned this and I will follow up on it.
SUMMARY: Pierre to consider if any editorial change would
improve this, assigning to @palemieux
Glenn: Just to be clear, I would view removing set from the
list in 10.4.4.4 as a substantive change, that's definitely
changing the algorithm.
Pierre: Not if the outcome is the same as you argue.
Nigel: Let's not argue hypotheticals here, wait until we have a
concrete proposal.
Glenn: By the way, in one of the comments in the thread on this
issue I pointed out that computing the SSS of the set
does have a substantive effect if you're serialising the CSS
into an ISD. From a presentation only perspective if you
are not considering an ISD there may be no semantic
difference but we also have the ISD mechanism to keep in mind.
Missing test for #region-timing. ttml2-tests#203
github: [18]https://github.com/w3c/ttml2-tests/issues/203
[18] https://github.com/w3c/ttml2-tests/issues/203
Nigel: We don't have Cyril here, maybe it wasn't a good
candidate for the agenda, let's see if we can do anything...
Nigel: I see that there are IMSC tests for this TTML1
functionality; can we simply copy those tests into the
ttml1-tests
repo from the imsc-tests repo?
Glenn: The TTML1 tests are in need of some work. I consider
them legacy at this point.
They need more work and I'm not sure how to go about doing
that?
If you start copying in some tests it will create a ripple in
what's there right now. I urge some caution to consider the
ramifications
and the bigger picture for TTML1 testing. Keep in mind that
the tests we have in our test suite are not for interop testing
but for spec completion testing to get out of CR. I'm not
sure if those new tests should go into TTML1 or what category
they are in. Are they testing existing TTML1 functionality
for which there was no test in the first place?
Nigel: I'd say they're testing functionality in TTML1 that
didn't have tests before.
Bear in mind that we rely on TTML1 tests for TTML2 also, for
features defined in TTML1.
Also if this could be even a small improvement I think we
should do it even if it doesn't address the whole set of
problems with the TTML1 tests repo.
I'll take an action to raise an issue on ttml1-tests where we
can consider including these tests.
Glenn: Just to let you know I might feel obligated to object on
the basis that it extends the set of tests for existing
features beyond what the CR tested for. I wouldn't mind
including it if we could segregate additions in some way.
I haven't got a suggestion.
Nigel: I'd be happy to segregate it in some way.
Glenn: That would make me a lot more comfortable.
I don't know the state of documentation on the TTML1 test
suite but we should document inclusions like this in a
sensible way that point out that this is not intended to
revisit the tests for exiting CR.
Nigel: I understand the concern, I think we'll be okay.
SUMMARY: @nigelmegitt to raise an issue on ttml1-tests to add
the region timing tests segregated away from CR exit criteria
tests
TTWG Charter status
Nigel: I haven't seen anything going to AC on this and we don't
have plh on the call today.
Atsushi: I can't comment further on this.
Pierre: Do you know why it is being held up?
Nigel: I don't know.
TPAC Planning
[19]Our TPAC wiki page
[19] https://www.w3.org/wiki/TimedText/tpac2019
Nigel: Thank you Atsushi for making that, it's really useful.
I've made some additions.
Key things:
1. We are light on specific discussion topics
2. We have 2 joint meetings planned.
Useful for folk here to be aware of the M&E IG work
especially what is happening in WICG, for example
with DataCue and Text Track Cue timing precision in the "time
marches on" algorithm.
I'll try to schedule some agenda time for us to prepare for
that because we won't have an opportunity on the day.
I've shared with the Chair of CSS WG our list of issues and
will add it to our wiki page.
The scheduling is not confirmed but we will avoid AC meeting
and Friday for that joint meeting.
Looking at Topics, we should add Karaoke and AD profile, and
if we have something available in time, the 360Ί and
live work too.
I'll add those in tentatively.
Anything else?
Andreas: For the 360Ί issue it would be good to sync with Chris
Needham from the M&E IG.
I propose to open a WICG group for this and we will try to
draft an explainer here and post it there. It would be good
if the people from the Immersive Web groups or the WICG would
be present when we present this.
It either fits in this last timeslot or the WICG timeslot.
Nigel: WICG is meeting Thursday 0830-1030 and Friday 1030-1230.
Joint meeting on the Friday?
Andreas: That makes sense, also something on the Monday in M&E
IG. I will set that up, after seeing the response from
Chris Wilson, who is one of the WICG chairs. I will try to
follow up by next week.
Pierre: Silly question - there's the M&E IG, the Media WG, the
WICG and the Chinese IG. It's getting crowded! Do you see
a hierarchy of relationships? Any insights?
Nigel: Not a silly question!
Pierre: Wondering if you have had any discussions.
Nigel: No explicit request to me as Chair of this group,
obviously everyone had chance to comment on the Media WG
Charter via their AC rep.
Andreas: I think for the more general discussion and an
overview, the Media and Entertainment IG is good, to direct to
the right group.
It's one of the mandates of the M&E IG.
For specific issues we need to involve the people more or
less interested in the topic.
It makes sense not to duplicate what we discuss in all these
slots.
There is indeed a hierarchy of granularity in how we discuss
these issues.
The interesting part is if something relates to the new Media
WG and there's an overlap.
Other than that we will not waste our time I think.
Pierre: Going back to the Chinese IG, is this something where
we need get a joint meeting at TPAC and force the issue?
Maybe TPAC is a good opportunity to meet them at least.
Andreas: I second that, it's the best opportunity, I assume
more people will be present at TPAC than other events because
of the proximity to China.
The best way to discuss the issues is to meet in person, it's
super important to use this opportunity.
Pierre: If a formal meeting is impossible then an informal one
would be good.
Nigel: Happy to do that.
Glenn: Question: is it fair to say that they have latched onto
an imagined requirement pertaining to subtitles or captions
that were not supposedly handled elsewhere as a means of
getting off the ground with technical work? If that is true,
then how likely are they going to want to cling to that as
something that they have tried to create ownership of, to
give them something to work on? Just thinking out loud
hypothetically.
Nigel: I wouldn't like to second guess them without talking to
them.
Glenn: That's fair.
Nigel: Looking at the schedule, the Chinese IG is meeting on
Friday.
CLDR
Nigel: We have a very long standing issue open with Unicode and
I've been in discussion with the Chair of CLDR
to try to get some movement. It could be that we'll be asked
if we can contribute something to help push it along.
[20]CLDR tracking issue
[20] https://github.com/w3c/ttwg/issues/59
Nigel: Unicode has moved their tracking to GitHub, there's a
link in #59 above, for information.
i18n labels
Atsushi: Thank you for the time. I also work for i18n WG.
We usually use two levels to track activities in relationship
with WGs.
I added two labels, i18n comment, mostly used to add
comments,
the second is i18n tracking. If you want comments from i18n
WG members, attach this label to any issue
and it is checked weekly by i18n and copied to our issue
tracker.
If you encounter any i18n related issue please add either of
these two labels.
Nigel: You've created the labels ready to go?
atsushi: Yes I've created it on tt-reqs and
tt-modules-cjk-ext-1.
Nigel: Probably worth adding them to all our repos - see the
home page
Atsushi: I will check the list of repositories with those two
labels.
Nigel: Is i18n-comment for us asking a comment from i18n WG?
Atsushi: i18n WG uses the i18n-comment label to indicate where
a request has been made for review.
Nigel: Ah, so we use i18n-tracking for requesting a comment.
Atsushi: Yes.
Nigel: Thank you, that's clear.
Font support and forced display in IMSC
<atsushi> sample [21]https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/
issues/4159
[21] https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/4159
Pierre: I opened a pull request on IMSC 1.2 to add font,
pointing you to it, so looking forward to your thoughts.
Nigel: I have begun reviewing that, it wasn't quick, so I
haven't finished!
Pierre: It wasn't quick to create!
On the issue of forced display and visibility, there are two
distinct topics.
One is that the current text is kind of weird and I think
that can definitely been improved.
The bigger question is a new distinct experience that we
really ought to discuss.
It's a really good use case to discuss and address correctly.
Nigel: Okay, happy to do that.
Nigel: I support the idea of understanding the requirements.
Pierre: You're suggesting a new kind of experience, captions
for the visually impaired, so to the extent that people
are going to create that kind of content you have to make
sure it gets to readers and is not dropped.
My initial reaction is we should make that experience a first
class citizen.
Some readers may never let the content out because it is not
visible.
That's the bigger topic.
Not sure of the technical solution yet. Bigger discussion.
Nigel: Then I'll add it to the topic list for TPAC.
Pierre: Sounds good.
Meeting close
Nigel: Thanks everyone, we're out of time for today. [adjourns
meeting]
Minutes manually created (not a transcript), formatted by
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Received on Thursday, 8 August 2019 16:33:53 UTC