- From: Nigel Megitt <nigel.megitt@bbc.co.uk>
- Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2018 15:23:51 +0000
- To: TTWG <public-tt@w3.org>
- Message-ID: <D7E5296F.6A437%nigel.megitt@bbc.co.uk>
Thanks all for attending today's TTWG meeting. Minutes can be found in HTML format at https://www.w3.org/2018/10/11-tt-minutes.html
In text format:
[1]W3C
[1] http://www.w3.org/
Timed Text Working Group Teleconference
11 Oct 2018
See also: [2]IRC log
[2] https://www.w3.org/2018/10/11-tt-irc
Attendees
Present
Nigel, Pierre, Cyril, Glenn, Andreas
Regrets
Thierry
Chair
Nigel
Scribe
nigel
Contents
* [3]Topics
1. [4]This meeting
2. [5]Handling non-kana text for rubyAlign with
spaceAround or spaceBetween ttml2#251
3. [6]TTML Profile registry
4. [7]TPAC 2018
5. [8]TTML Profile registry (revisited)
6. [9]CSS review
7. [10]Rec publication
8. [11]Meeting close
* [12]Summary of Action Items
* [13]Summary of Resolutions
__________________________________________________________
<scribe> scribe: nigel
This meeting
Nigel: Today, we have TTML Profile Registry and TPAC 2018.
There's one issue reopened
... by r12a which we might quickly cover, a TTML2 issue.
... Any other business, or particular points to raise?
group: [no other business]
Handling non-kana text for rubyAlign with spaceAround or spaceBetween
ttml2#251
github: [14]https://github.com/w3c/ttml2/issues/251
[14] https://github.com/w3c/ttml2/issues/251
Nigel: @r12a reopened this. It looks like we agreed to make a
test for this case, but I do
... not think I could find one in the ttml2-tests suite.
... Glenn suggested moving it to 2ed milestone.
... I also wondered if we could create a test that's not
formally part of the Implementation
... Report test suite, to complete this action.
Glenn: We have some tests in the test suite that are excluded
from the IR via an exclude
... flag in the manifest files.
... The case that that issue involves is what do you do if you
have ruby that consists of say
... latin words, or English words, or pinyin translations of
Chinese that are not kana or kanji
... characters, that is, the ruby text is not kana/kanji. In
the context of rubyAlign, for example
... spaceAround, spaceBetween, where do you put the space, do
you parse out words and
... put the space around them like with normal text alignment
justification spacing or do
... you put them between the individual glyph areas for the
roman characters, i.e.
... basically letter-spacing. That was the original issue that
was filed. We said we would
... create some tests but we unintentionally did not do that.
This fell through the cracks
... I guess because the issue had been closed out. So I think
we can create some tests for
... it. The question about the tests in my mind is their
artificial nature. We don't have any
... subtitles that might actually use these, at least I have no
real world data about subtitles
... using them. I have to admit it is admissible in the spec
which is vague on the subject.
... The technical point of the issue remains valid.
Nigel: Can anyone volunteer to take an action to create those
non-IR tests?
Glenn: I don't see any option but to do this in 2ed.
Nigel: We don't have to make any change to 2ed unless there's
feedback requesting it.
... For now it is enough just to create the tests.
Glenn: Are we going to solicit new feedback from implementers
that we haven't already
... done before? There's only one implementation that reported
on rubyAlign presentation
... in the IR, which is for TTPE. If we don't do anything new
then it would fall into Skynav's
... camp to address this which means I have to look at our
internal schedule. It's not a
... priority item for us because nobody is clamouring for
Pinyin and Ruby in subtitles right
... now. I would rather push it off a little bit until we get
into 2ed processing.
Nigel: Can I suggest we create an issue on the ttml2-tests repo
to create this?
Glenn: Sure, that's reasonable. I'll create a TTML2 2nd Ed
milestone under that repo too
... and label it under that since I have already released the
test suite under the PR milestone.
Nigel: Ok.
... Any other points to add on this topic?
SUMMARY: @skynavga to raise an issue on w3c/ttml2-tests for
creation of this test.
TTML Profile registry
Nigel: I've just assigned myself to 3 of the open issues.
... We need volunteers to make changes to address the other
open issues by pull request
... so that we can publish it alongside the 3 Recs when the
time comes (13 Nov is the plan)
TPAC 2018
Nigel: I made the most recent changes to our agenda wiki page
after last week's meeting
... to add the TTML Profile Registry as a topic.
... Any other proposals for agenda or scheduling of
discussions?
Andreas: I'm not sure where is the best place to discuss this,
in TTWG or M&E IG. IRT is
... working in a European project on accessibility in immersive
environments especially
... 360ยบ videos. It would be useful to report on the current
results and what this means
... for standardisation. I think this is in the TTWG Charter
but it also touches some areas
... that may be interesting for a wider audience, so maybe
Nigel and Chris Needham it
... would be good to discuss with you where the best event is
to discuss this.
<glenn> Added ttml2-tests issue re: TTML2 issue #251 at
[15]https://github.com/w3c/ttml2-tests/issues/200.
[15] https://github.com/w3c/ttml2-tests/issues/200.
Nigel: If we can do this in the joint session when TTWG is with
M&E IG would that be good?
Andreas: Yes, that could be good, yes.
... I will send you and Chris and Mark a note about this and
explain what we could present
... and that would be a good starting point.
Nigel: Sounds like a good idea - I will tell Chris I will
support that.
... As you say, our Charter says: "Investigate caption format
requirements for 360 Degree, AR and VR video content."
... It is also in the M&E IG's scope to investigate
requirements, so it makes sense to do this
... together.
[16]TTWG Charter, Scope section
[16] https://www.w3.org/2018/05/timed-text-charter.html#scope
Nigel: I will add something to our wiki page so we can remember
this topic is on our list.
TTML Profile registry (revisited)
Pierre: I'm looking at the open pull request that has been
outstanding for a while.
... There are a bunch of comments here, how should we address
those.
Nigel: None of the comments are about any content of the pull
request, I think we can
... merge it now with a view to the gh-pages version being an
ED that we consider for
... publication as a new Note.
Pierre: Okay, I'll go ahead and merge that then. [merges it]
Nigel: Thank you.
... Does that close issue 40?
Pierre: Yes, I'll close that.
Nigel: I don't think that pull request dealt with #41, which
was about IMSC 1.0.1?
Pierre: [just looking at it]
... No, it doesn't, I can deal with that.
Nigel: The only thing I think we don't know at the moment is
how to resolve #38,
... the difference between processor profiles and content
profiles.
Pierre: We may need to keep processor profiles just for TTML1.
Glenn: One option might be to keep processor profiles and have
a column for implied
... content profile.
Pierre: The reality is most readers will just look up the 4
character code.
Nigel: The simplest thing is to just say the document lists
processor profiles and add
... some informative text about content profiles.
Glenn: I think point to the spec about content profiles without
elaborating on it. It's worthy
... of a footnote and that's about it.
... It is certainly worth clarifying that it is not a registry
for content profiles per se.
Nigel: I think I'm hearing consensus that we scope this
document to processor profiles.
Glenn: And we should say the motivation, that TTML1 only had
processor profiles.
Nigel: I haven't been tracking this discussion in #38 so I'll
add a summary into the issue
... after this meeting.
Pierre: Looking at #41 re IMSC 1.0.1, I think that we probably
have to list both specifications
... because if someone had referenced IMSC1, they should still
be able to find the proper
... profile identifier in the table. It should say IMSC1 OR or
AND IMSC 1.0.1. I will modify
... it as is and create the pull request that way.
Nigel: Makes sense.
Cyril: You mentioned in an email that the Note actually
supersedes the specs on the media
... type registration. How is that possible? The Note has no
standard status, right?
... We could change the Note without going through the voting
process. I'm surprised by
... that.
Glenn: It has whatever status that people who use it attribute
to it. You're right,
... publishing as a WG Note doesn't mean that W3C membership
has reviewed it. That's
... fine, it's done all the time in W3C. Registries in
particular.
Nigel:
[17]https://www.iana.org/assignments/media-types/application/tt
ml+xml points to our registry
... As far as I can tell the IANA registration is normative.
[17] https://www.iana.org/assignments/media-types/application/ttml+xml
Glenn: IANA's requirements in terms of what they reference is
fairly loose and has no
... trouble pointing to a WG Note. In a sense it does have
normative force as far as IANA
... is concerned.
Pierre: By the way it is a catch-22, because comments from IANA
usually come after
... things are settled in Rec.
Nigel: That's what drove us down this path of taking the
registration out of TTML.
Glenn: I think I argued this for that very reason. At least our
Note can point back at
... TTML1 as a snapshot of where we were at the time. That
leaves the codecs parameter
... in a strange status. I don't think anyone is complaining
about it.
Nigel: I don't think it is a strange status.
Cyril: It's strange.
Pierre: We should have taken it out of TTML1 3rd Ed.
Nigel: Oh yes, we didn't do that, it is still there. I wonder
if we can remove it now as an error.
Pierre: It's normative, and IANA does not point to it.
Nigel: I should query if we can remove it at this stage as an
error.
Pierre: At least open an issue.
Nigel: I raised [18]https://github.com/w3c/ttml1/issues/371
... We're not going to change the IANA registration to point
anywhere else.
[18] https://github.com/w3c/ttml1/issues/371
Pierre: It's not fatal to have it in TTML1 but it is indeed
confusing.
... Could we change the text in the Note that says ...
Cyril: Could we clarify that the Note supersedes the TTML1
definition?
Glenn: Or augments it. I don't think we can remove the
definition in TTML1 because the
... 3rd Ed supersedes the 2nd which supersedes the 1st.
Cyril: I'm fine with that but want to be clear that this
document is more recent than the
... spec. It is misleading to say that TTML1 defines the MIME
type.
Pierre: Can we start the document by stating that it is the
definitive document?
Glenn: We could add an errata to TTML1 3rd Ed to remove the
media type registration.
Pierre: Yes, but still someone should address Cyril's concerns.
If we remove it from TTML1
... 3rd Ed then it's more reason to clarify that the registry
is the definitive definition of the
... content type including the definition of codecs.
Glenn: I can propose a text change here.
Nigel: I've assigned issue 45 to Glenn.
Glenn: I see that in TTML2 we left the renumbered appendix in
place, but vacated the
... content saying it has been deleted, without pointing to
where the content lives.
... I need to create a 2nd Ed issue to add a link into that
appendix D of TTML2.
Nigel: That wouldn't be a normative change, we might be able to
make an editorial
... change before Rec.
Glenn: Maybe, I'd rather do it as an errata though, which we
can do quickly.
Pierre: I agree.
... We should be avoiding making changes before Rec.
Nigel: Shall we go ahead and create pull requests and come back
to this next week?
Glenn: Sounds good.
CSS review
[19]Fantasai's email re CSS Text 3 & 4
[19] https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-tt/2018Oct/0011.html
Nigel: Thanks to Glenn's prompt last week I asked Elika to
resend the email to TTWG,
... which she did. I wonder if we are in a position to confirm
that the changes made to
... CSS Text Levels 3 & 4 meet the subtitle and caption
requirements that we put forward?
... I'd like to be able to respond from TTWG to CSS WG on this.
... Specifically text-group-align and line-padding are in Level
4.
... I had a look and they looked good to me, but I wondered if
there were other views.
Glenn: I haven't looked at them yet.
Nigel: I'm assuming this isn't implemented anywhere yet.
Pierre: I haven't paid attention to that but will have a look.
... I also noticed that there's something called NGLayoutOption
in Chrome, and I'm
... wondering if that will help with Chrome's implementation of
layout for Arabic and Japanese.
Glenn: Which limitations?
Pierre: The fact that spans automatically prevent ligatures.
... There's apparently a new generation layout engine of some
kind. I've not tried it. That's
... something else to get around to doing at some point.
Nigel: That'd be good to know, if you get any results on that.
... On this specific message I won't feed anything back right
now, but I'd like to be able
... to do so, perhaps next week.
Rec publication
Nigel: It's not clear if we need a WG decision for Rec
transition, and Thierry's timeline
... doesn't clarify it either. I don't think we do, however, in
case we do, I should get the CfC
... out by 19th October, so if we can have Rec versions ready
by next week then we can
... begin the decision review period during next week's call.
Pierre: I may not be on the call, but go ahead.
Meeting close
Nigel: Thanks everyone, we've completed our agenda for today,
our meeting next
... week will be the last before TPAC - I expect we will cover
the profile registry, TPAC
... agenda and Rec publication decision.
... [adjourns meeting]
Summary of Action Items
Summary of Resolutions
[End of minutes]
__________________________________________________________
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Received on Thursday, 11 October 2018 15:24:16 UTC