- From: Nigel Megitt <nigel.megitt@bbc.co.uk>
- Date: Thu, 11 May 2017 16:42:44 +0000
- To: Timed Text Working Group <public-tt@w3.org>
- Message-ID: <D53A4C00.3F311%nigel.megitt@bbc.co.uk>
Thanks all for attending today's TTWG meeting. Minutes can be found in HTML format at https://www.w3.org/2017/05/11-tt-minutes.html
Apologies for having technical difficulties during the meeting, and thanks Pierre for stepping in and scribing.
In text format:
[1]W3C
[1] http://www.w3.org/
Timed Text Working Group Teleconference
11 May 2017
See also: [2]IRC log
[2] http://www.w3.org/2017/05/11-tt-irc
Attendees
Present
dae, Glenn, Nigel, Andreas, Pierre, David_Ronca
Regrets
Thierry, Mike
Chair
Nigel
Scribe
nigel
Contents
* [3]Topics
1. [4]This meeting
2. [5]TTML issue assignment and progress tracking.
3. [6]TTML1 & TTML2 issues, actions, PRs, editorial
actions etc
4. [7]#268
5. [8]#263
6. [9]#141
7. [10]#128
8. [11]#274
9. [12]#189
* [13]Summary of Action Items
* [14]Summary of Resolutions
__________________________________________________________
<scribe> scribe: nigel
This meeting
Nigel: [goes through agenda points]. Any other business or
specific points to raise?
Pierre: Deprioritise TPAC for this meeting, prioritise TTML
issues.
group: [no other business to raise]
Nigel: Okay, in that case I think we can skip TPAC today unless
anyone has any
... urgent changes to the survey responses listed in the
agenda.
TTML issue assignment and progress tracking.
Nigel: Can we timebox this to 15 minutes maximum?
... Are there any issues anyone wants to discuss prior to
taking on?
Pierre: I plan to start on TTML1 issues.
Nigel: Do you want to raise any specific issues to work on, or
deal with them offline?
Pierre: They're ones that I have already discussed, no need to
discuss them further
... now.
Dae: Does anyone think any of the unassigned TTML2 issues need
to be resolved
... before wide review?
Pierre: All of them.
David_Ronca: Here's an example - a comment about moving Ruby
into elements.
Dae: Or #259, which is an editorial assigned, so it might not
need to be resolved
... before wide review.
Pierre: If they're editorial then we should just deal with
them. If they need to be
... deferred we can do that now. Fixing the document later will
be more expensive.
David_Ronca: At this point I think we're trying to target a
June 30 WR. To reinforce
... Pierre's point why can't we just resolve these issues? If
they can be resolved they
... should be resolved. We should try to make WR as clean as
possible in the next
... month and a half.
Andreas: I also reviewed 50-60% of the issues - there are a lot
so June is ambitious.
... In general I agree with Pierre and David that the HR
comments on i18n should be
... dealt with. I think that any review feedback has to be
given high priority in general.
... If you look at Richard's comments he read the spec very
carefully and made some
... comments so I think we should put the effort in to find a
solution that the reviewer
... is fine with. Apart from that, a lot of Richard's comments
were about Ruby and
... some quite complex issues introduced in TTML2 and from my
view it certainly
... needs Glenn's involvement on those.
Dae: I looked at all the open unassigned issues and took the
ones I thought I could
... take care of or could resolve before WR. I thought #259 was
not critical or I could
... not handle it. If everyone else took the same approach then
we can assume that
... all the unassigned issues are those that nobody can
resolve.
Nigel: No, please do not assign yourself all the issues you
might be able to handle,
... because that just blocks others from taking them on. Assign
yourself an issue if
... you're about to work on it.
Dae: Well #259 may be deferrable.
Pierre: I'd like more time to prepare before deciding to defer
any issues.
Glenn: I think we should move to considering issues. As to
#259, which is a question,
... we can simply respond to the question (and say yes) and
close the issue.
... I am qualified to deal with all open issues, but my time is
limited so I have to
... prioritise. I agree that if we can resolve all HR comments
then we should without
... it delaying our proposed schedule, but at some point we may
need to push things
... back. It's too early to make a general policy about this.
Nigel: My original question is: Are there any issues that
anyone is considering picking
... up but wants to discuss?
Pierre: Not for me.
Glenn: I can pull my name off issues that I'm not working on
right at the moment.
Nigel: That would be helpful.
Glenn: It was not my intention to prevent anyone else from
working on them.
Nigel: Thank you.
TTML1 & TTML2 issues, actions, PRs, editorial actions etc
Nigel: Thank you Pierre for sending that additional list of
issues. How we close issues
... is we address them with pull requests, so I would like to
review the open ones
... first, to see if we have consensus to merge, and then look
at the issues next.
... By the way Pierre's list was on top of the list that was
already in the agenda.
... There are no open pull requests on TTML1.
... There are 2 on TTML2.
... They are both related to #271:
[15]Metadata examples do not include xml:lang (editorial)
[15] https://github.com/w3c/ttml2/issues/271
Nigel: Due to comments on Pierre's initial pull request, I
proposed an alternate
... resolution in
[16]Issue 0271 xml lang metadata examples take 2
[16] https://github.com/w3c/ttml2/issues/307
Glenn: I think this is best resolved simply by adding a note to
ttm:item to say that
... xml:lang can be used and doing nothing. The problem with
the new proposed
... examples is that they are not in the language section. Or
we could put a new note
... or section in §8.2.8 xml:lang, where it is already stated
that you can put it on
... metadata vocabulary as a subset of core vocabulary.
... Putting a small note in §14.1.6 ttm:item isn't necessary
because it is explicitly
... permitted in the syntax.
... I don't know if we need to add anything.
Pierre: I'm fairly certain that this is already done in the
text, so the question is how
... we can resolve it.
Andreas: We need to consider that this comes from i18n
(Addison) so naturally they
... are looking at that point and their comment indicates that
the labelling with
... languages of text and content is insufficient and should be
given higher priority.
... So regardless of whether it is actually the core thing
being talked about in the document
... it should be there. Although it is optional it is better to
give readers clearer signals
... to add this information, while on the content element it is
clearer, for the metadata
... it is not that clear and it does not hurt to add that extra
information. To deal with
... this comment it would be good to add this simple example.
Glenn: There's a very simple reason, which is that it pollutes
the example. The
... examples do not need to be complete. We don't have any
reason to add a lang
... tag to the example. If it helps the reader we can add a
note to say it could be
... placed there if desired.
Pierre: I'm sympathetic to that argument, but in this case it
is being responsive
<atai> +1
Pierre: without negatively impacting the document.
Nigel: My comment
[17]https://github.com/w3c/ttml2/pull/301#issuecomment-29873041
8
... was to add both a note and the examples, and that got a +1
from the issue
... raiser Richard. I can add a note to the PR if that helps.
[17] https://github.com/w3c/ttml2/pull/301#issuecomment-298730418
Glenn: I will add a note to the pull request explaining what my
concern would be.
Nigel: Thank you.
... Does that mean that we have consensus to close with regrets
Pierre's original
... pull request #301?
Glenn: Sounds good to me.
Nigel: Is everyone else happy to go with the pull request that
adds a note and a separate
... example?
group: [silence]
Nigel: I'll take that as assent.
<dae> Nigel are you on audio?
#268
<pal> glenn: CSS3 does not support 'auto'
<glenn> Group decides to mark as works for me and close without
action. CSS3 WM does not support an 'auto' value.
<pal> consensus: WG believes it is not a requirement for TTML2.
Close as Works For Me.
#263
<pal> consensus: problem stated by commenter is already
addressed. Closes as Works for Me.
<pal> topic #253
<pal> no objection from the WG to resolution as-is
#141
<pal> defer until Nigel attends
#128
<pal> defer until Nigel attends
#274
<pal> AI: Dae to bug Richard Ishida and Glenn Adams
#189
<pal> need an assignee
<pal> glenn: very complex to specify. suggest deferring.
<pal> atai: new feature request. agree with glenn.
Nigel: Apologies for the large outage from me, problems here.
Pierre: #141
[18]Embedded graphics don't fully meet requirement
[18] https://github.com/w3c/ttml2/issues/141
Pierre: Nigel do you agree that the requirement is wrong?
Nigel: I don't see how it is possible to guarantee that any
text present is the correct
... text. You can require some text to be present syntactically
or semantically but
... the requirement as it's stated goes too far.
Glenn: Authorial requirements are not supposed to be covered.
Nigel: I agree it looks like an authorial requirement.
Pierre: So that cannot be specified.
Nigel: So the action is to fix the requirement?
Pierre: I'm concerned about spending any time revising those
decade old requirements.
Nigel: I don't have a problem making a point edit to the
requirements and
... revising the spec to match.
Glenn: I would propose to add a note to Annex M to say that
those requirements
... are not being updated.
Pierre: I see a hard time updating the group note on
requirements because that will
... require review at least by me.
Nigel: are you saying we don't need a requirements doc?
Pierre: No it would have been great to revisit those
requirements, but now we have
... a choice to reopen requirements and go down that path, or
just say the document
... is historical and not necessarily accurate and just move
on.
Nigel: I certainly did check back on the requirements probably
back in 2015, and am
... fairly confident that they are mostly correct and relevant.
... Is the action now to mark up the annex for this requirement
to say that although
... it is not met fully, add a note that we do not impose
authorial requirements via
... the specification here, so in that sense the requirement is
not correctly formed.
Glenn: That would work for me. I don't think we need to produce
an errata document
... for those requirements.
Pierre: +1
... Can I assign this to you Nigel?
Nigel: Yes you can!
Pierre: done.
Nigel: Thank you!
Pierre: The next one was #128.
[19]The uniqueness of xml:id needs to be broken for some uses
of condition
[19] https://github.com/w3c/ttml2/issues/128
Nigel: As far as I'm concerned this is a big issue, with
condition not really being
... usable in the way that a lot of people would want to use it
- it could be a really
... powerful feature that is hobbled at the moment. I want to
make sure that a
... workable pattern is clear so that people can use it
successfully. It looks like that
... needs some changes to the way that the <set> element works.
Glenn: I care about this also.
Pierre: Can I assign this to you Nigel?
Nigel: Yes.
Glenn: I think we need to take this offline.
Nigel: Ok happy to do that.
Pierre: The next is #189
[20]Add support for adjacent background area merging
[20] https://github.com/w3c/ttml2/issues/189
Pierre: I think Glenn's position on that is it is very complex
to specify, and proposes
... to defer it.
Glenn: The proposal is to defer to v.next.
Nigel: do we have rounded borders now?
Glenn: This is about background areas, and rounded borders clip
them.
Nigel: So we can round backgrounds now?
Glenn: Yes, we can.
... It is not specified what the border radii apply to, so I
think it is implementation
... dependent which of the first three options in
[21]https://github.com/w3c/ttml2/issues/176#issuecomment-246140
753
... is presented, and any of them could be legal. I don't think
CSS 3 really helps on
... this situation either.
[21] https://github.com/w3c/ttml2/issues/176#issuecomment-246140753
Nigel: Okay I need to look at that some more.
... I would expect the background on the span to be the thing
subject to the border
... rounding, so the first example would be what is expected.
Glenn: I wouldn't disagree that may be the case.
Nigel: One option would be just to remove border-radii - does
anyone need it?
Andreas: What is the problem in keeping it?
Glenn: One resolution of this would be to add two examples,
with the behaviours
<atai> +1
Glenn: with respect to p and span in TTML2. That would be fine
with me, and then if
... we want TTML.next then merging background areas could be a
follow-on step.
Nigel: At least the examples will help authors understand what
they will get, so if
... they don't want it then I guess they'll have to lump it.
Glenn: Would you be prepared to create a PR for this Nigel?
Nigel: Yes that's fine.
... I've added a note to #189.
Glenn: I've assigned it to you Nigel.
Pierre: That completes everything we had on the back-burner.
Nigel: Okay thanks for going through those issues while I was
off the audio call.
... Now how about #224 and #235?
[22]https://github.com/w3c/imsc/issues/224
[22] https://github.com/w3c/imsc/issues/224
[23]https://github.com/w3c/ttml1/issues/235
[23] https://github.com/w3c/ttml1/issues/235
Nigel: Sorry for the confusion, let's look at TTML1 #235.
Pierre: I think in TTML1 the processing is unambiguous so some
tabs are kept and
... there's no definition for what they look like. We could
recommend that they look
... like something, and recommend authors don't use it, but we
can't do much more.
Glenn: I've pinged Steve and Tony and they haven't responded.
So my understanding
... is that we're talking about what happens with tabs when
xml:space="default" and
... there's a horizontal tab at the beginning of a line.
... Regardless of xml:space the presentation semantics of tab
are not defined in TTML
... - for xml:space="default" it's not clear from XSL-FO if
that's mapped to space
... during the refinement process or not. There are two
technical questions, one about
... the refinement process and the second is if it is not
mapped to space then what
... does it mean for presentation. I agree with Pierre's
comment that we should
... recommend that author's should not use a tab in any case,
regardless of xml:space.
Pierre: Yes. and if we want to be helpful, we could recommend
that processors turn
... tabs into spaces which would lead to what most people
expect I think, in TTML1.
Glenn: "A preferred way for implementations to handle this is
blah blah".
Pierre: That would work for me.
Andreas: I think the handling of xml:space is specified in
XSL-FO but the base spec
... that defines it is the XML standard itself. Whatever we do
it needs to be inline with
... what the XML standard says.
Pierre: Would it be inconsistent with XML to recommend weakly
that implementations
... treat tab as space?
Glenn: This is not to do with the XML spec, perhaps the XSL-FO
spec, but my position
... is that XSL-FO is ambiguous on this.
Andreas: I will double check that.
... If there is an issue I will comment on the proposed
wording.
Pierre: Glenn, should we open a pull request for TTML1?
Glenn: I would suggest opening a pull request with a proposed
note. I will do that.
Pierre: I might suggest that in IMSC 1.0.1 we add a note
pointing to this note in
... TTML1.
Nigel: OK now what about TTML2?
... I think the easiest proposal is to say that a tab character
has no presentation effect
... whatsoever.
Glenn: For TTML2 I would take the TTML1 note and make it
normative.
Andreas: Another useful resource for clues about intended
behaviour is to look at
... XSLT (or maybe XPATH), which was part of XSL-FO a long time
ago.
... As far as I can remember if there's no xml:space="preserve"
the default behaviour
... is to normalise tabs to spaces.
Glenn: XSLT is not formally part of XSL-FO, so the focus should
be on what XSL-FO
... does. If we have time it might be worth looking at what FOP
and Antenna House
... does, but we don't have to do the same as them.
Pierre: What does CSS do with presentation of tabs?
Glenn: That's more complicated. After CSS2.1 and later it maps
a tab to tabstops that
... are nominally 8 spaces across. So "xxx[tab]y" means the "y"
appears 8 spaces across.
... I don't think we want to adopt the CSS behaviour.
Nigel: Can we adopt my proposal that a tab has no presentation
effect at all?
Glenn: I would prefer to map to a single space rather than
nothing, for security
... reasons, Invisible content can be used for phishing etc. as
a general principle.
... For example you can create URLs with invisible character in
them which mislead
... the browser user.
Nigel: Okay, mapping a tab to a single space would work for me.
Glenn: That would be my default proposal for presenting a tab.
Pierre: I think we should start there and I'll review.
Nigel: This needs a new TTML2 issue.
Glenn: I consider it part of #302. That's supposed to
incorporate further changes
... between TTML1 and TTML2.
Nigel: I think this sufficiently different from the TTML1 issue
that it needs a new TTML2 issue.
... I will add a note to the TTML1 issue that is currently
assigned to Glenn, #235.
<glenn> See
[24]https://www.w3.org/TR/CSS2/text.html#white-space-model for
CSS2.1 tab handling rules.
[24] https://www.w3.org/TR/CSS2/text.html#white-space-model
Nigel: I'd like to move to the Audio Description requirements.
Pierre, you made the
... point that we as a group have not been through those
requirements.
Pierre: I wasn't at the Web and TV IG/TTWG joint meeting. I
don't really have an
... issue with the requirements but in the context of
distribution I would like to review
... that face to face.
Nigel: OK that sounds like a discussion of a distribution
profile for AD, which I'd be
... happy to add to the agenda at TPAC, but I would also like
to continue with the
... existing TTML2 work.
Glenn: How I've been drafting it is a neutral addition to the
existing semantics around
... audio inclusion in TTML2 - I have not mentioned audio
description explicitly.
Nigel: We're out of time for today, and I see that the audio
call has dropped off for
... some reason too, so let's adjourn until next week.
[adjourns meeting]
Summary of Action Items
Summary of Resolutions
[End of minutes]
__________________________________________________________
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Received on Thursday, 11 May 2017 16:43:17 UTC