- From: Nigel Megitt <nigel.megitt@bbc.co.uk>
- Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2017 15:44:04 +0000
- To: Timed Text Working Group <public-tt@w3.org>
- Message-ID: <D5CDECDC.47BEE%nigel.megitt@bbc.co.uk>
Thanks all for attending today's TTWG meeting. Minutes can be found in HTML format at https://www.w3.org/2017/08/31-tt-minutes.html
In text format:
[1]W3C
[1] http://www.w3.org/
Timed Text Working Group Teleconference
31 Aug 2017
See also: [2]IRC log
[2] http://www.w3.org/2017/08/31-tt-irc
Attendees
Present
Pierre, Nigel, Glenn, Thierry
Regrets
Andreas
Chair
Nigel
Scribe
nigel
Contents
* [3]Topics
1. [4]This meeting
2. [5]TPAC 2017 Advanced Planning
3. [6]TTML2 Horizontal Review.
4. [7]ttml2#406 Add equivalent CSS properties to style
attributes
5. [8]ttml2#248 rubyAlign withBase
6. [9]ttml2#254 Default ruby position may be on the wrong
side for tblr (eg. mongolian)
7. [10]ttml2#256 Please provide more illustrations and
examples for the ruby sections
8. [11]ttml2#258 How to space base characters where
shiftRuby kicks in for group ruby?
9. [12]ttml2#261 Should we allow more overhang for
Chinese?
10. [13]ttml2#263 It should be easier to specify direction
for RTL script users
11. [14]ttml2#269 tts:writingMode example is not helpful
12. [15]ttml2#270 Can <named-item> altText have xml:lang?
13. [16]ttml2#271 Metadata examples do not include
xml:lang (editorial)
14. [17]ttml2#397 Error in HLG HDR appendix step 8
15. [18]ttml2#401 animate attribute element list omits
audio
16. [19]Meeting close
* [20]Summary of Action Items
* [21]Summary of Resolutions
__________________________________________________________
<scribe> scribe: nigel
This meeting
Nigel: For today we have TPAC, TTML2, IMSC. Anything else, or
anything specific to cover?
Thierry: Nothing to report on WebVTT - the review is ongoing
until Sep 22.
Glenn: There may be a couple of TTML2 PRs to look at. I merged
Nigel's correction on the
... HDR appendix, and one or two others to cover in that part
of the agenda.
Nigel: Okay if there's nothing else let's get going...
TPAC 2017 Advanced Planning
Nigel: We need to think about the agenda points we wish to
cover.
[22]TTWG TPAC 2017 Wiki page
[22] https://www.w3.org/wiki/TimedText/tpac2017
Nigel: I think we plan to talk about TTML2 CR, IMSC 2
requirements, IMSC 1.0.1
Pierre: +1 to finalising IMSC 2 requirements
Nigel: It would be good for everyone attending to add their
names - only 3 of us on there now.
Glenn: I plan to attend.
Nigel: I don't know if we will need time for WebVTT but I guess
there may well be.
Thierry: I think we should plan at least a couple of hours,
because by that time we will
... have ended all the comments and the responses to the
comments, so it will be time
... either to request a transition to CR or something close to
it.
Nigel: Do you think we will have agreed all the dispositions
for the current review by then?
Thierry: So far there have been no comments. We're still
working on finalising the dispositions
... from the first review. It's hard to tell right now, even
what the current status of the first
... review is.
Nigel: Ok. For TTML2 that should be about dispositions to
comments also, and closing
... issues before moving to CR.
... For TTML2 and CSS style attribute/property value alignment
we need some use cases
... which I'm hoping for input from Netflix on.
Pierre: I'm expecting something also by end of September from
Netflix for IMSC 2 requirements
... which could well be useful for TTML2 / CSS also.
... How receptive are the CSS folk to this?
Nigel: It's hard for me to assess. Maybe with use cases and
expected usage data that
... could be more encouraging.
Glenn: My sense is that if there's a reason to believe that
features will be used more widely
... then that would encourage browser makers to go ahead and
implement, especially
... if there are some content providers asking for it. Some
more theoretical people may
... approve putting features in the specs but that doesn't mean
that the browsers will
... implement them, especially if they get the impression that
they're only for TTML2 support.
... Some of the issues would be more interesting to them, such
as driving out inconsistent
... behaviour like on line breaks and white space.
Pierre: The lack of outline support is an easy one to push in
the sense that it's used in
... 100% of DVDs and Blu-Rays.
[23]Invitation for CSS WG to attend TTWG at TPAC.
[23] https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2017Aug/0012.html
Nigel: I've had no responses to the invitation yet.
<scribe> ACTION: nigel Send CSSWG an invitation reminder by
2017-09-07 [recorded in
[24]http://www.w3.org/2017/08/31-tt-minutes.html#action01]
[24] http://www.w3.org/2017/08/31-tt-minutes.html#action01
<trackbot> Created ACTION-504 - Send csswg an invitation
reminder by 2017-09-07 [on Nigel Megitt - due 2017-09-07].
Pierre: Maybe we ought to target specific folk who may have run
into some of the issues,
... like Apple who has been implementing IMSC 1 recently.
Nigel: Given the timing, if we had some documentation to share
with CSSWG even before
... end of September that could be useful. I'm hoping for
something from Netflix and I'm
... also gathering information from a couple of areas within
BBC that may well drive needs
... for, say, Japanese, language requirements. I'm not clear
exactly which attribute values
... need to be supported though.
Glenn: It may be useful to look at, say, ruby overhang, where
the JLReqs detail an issue,
... with some support in existing Japanese subtitle systems,
whereas CSS postponed it
... until, say, Level 4, where only a few folk in the CSSWG
understood the issues clearly.
... One of the issues may be persuading the others about the
need to implement it.
... In the first order we need to persuade ourselves of it.
Nigel: Just to clarify, I'm looking for data points about how,
say, BBC, would use the features
... if we were to move into greenfield territory, and, say,
begin providing closed captions
... in Japanese. For example, would we even use ruby - I just
don't know.
Glenn: I'd admit that the values I chose in TTML2 were based on
what decisions an
... implementation would need to make, to expose styling
decisions to authors. That's not
... to say that all users would necessarily want to take every
decision tree path.
Nigel: That reminds me also that it would likely be useful
input to CSSWG to provide
... tests alongside use cases.
Glenn: Not only that but also images.
Nigel: Coming back to the agenda, if there are any specific
discussion topics for our meeting
... at TPAC, then let me know please or edit the wiki page.
TTML2 Horizontal Review.
Nigel: See also the above discussion about the joint meeting
with CSS WG at TPAC.
Glenn: My suggestion is to look at the Editor's CR Worklist
milestone and click on the "closed" items, of which there are
13.
... Those are issues I've processed in the last 2 weeks, many
of which are HR comments,
... so I expect the Group needs to approve the disposition of
those.
Nigel: Incidentally, you removed some milestones...
Glenn: I reorganised them.
Nigel: I wondered why you didn't just close the milestones,
rather than removing them?
Glenn: Yes that would have been a better option, I'll do that
next time.
[25]13 Closed issues
[25] https://github.com/w3c/ttml2/issues?q=is:closed+milestone:"Editor's+CR+Work+List"
ttml2#406 Add equivalent CSS properties to style attributes
github: [26]https://github.com/w3c/ttml2/issues/406
[26] https://github.com/w3c/ttml2/issues/406
Glenn: The TAG and CSS feedback was that semantics defined only
in terms of XSL-FO
... where possible; if similar but different semantics are
available in CSS properties
... mention them at least informatively.
... That's a nice idea, but it's not actionable, so I'm
suggesting closing as "works for me"
... and incorporating this into our philosophy for future
consideration.
Nigel: I think that would be unhelpful since we would then lose
track of it. As an alternative
... I would propose creating sub-issues with the specific in
and treating this as an
... umbrella issue, to turn this into something concrete.
Glenn: We could use Change Proposals for this. For previous
comments to this for example
... for TTML1 then we usually said Thank you, we'll do it
later, and then closed the issue.
Nigel: And did you do it later?
Glenn: No
Nigel: That's why I don't want to close this - we'll just
forget it again.
... I think the first step is to go through.
Glenn: I can see that this would be useful information for
people coming from a different
... space but it isn't necessary, so it could turn into spec
clutter.
... I could accept this if someone else does the work.
Nigel: I think a lot of the work has already been done in the
CSS requirements wiki page.
Glenn: One thing that would be worth noting is "impedance
mismatches" but I think they've
... mostly been identified.
Nigel: In many ways those are the most interesting ones.
Glenn: I agree. It may be most useful to put that in the spec
highlighting areas of potential
... difficulty. I don't know if its best to put that inline or
in an appendix.
... So you want to leave this open until there are actionable
tasks?
Nigel: yes.
Glenn: I've assigned it to you Nigel.
Nigel: That's fine, I'll try to progress this as fast as I can.
ttml2#248 rubyAlign withBase
github: [27]https://github.com/w3c/ttml2/issues/248
[27] https://github.com/w3c/ttml2/issues/248
Glenn: On this one, no real discussion, but I realised I need
to add a note to that i18n can
... sign off on it, so I should be able to take care of that
without any further input. I'll do this
... unles Dae steps in and does so.
ttml2#254 Default ruby position may be on the wrong side for tblr
(eg. mongolian)
github: [28]https://github.com/w3c/ttml2/issues/254
[28] https://github.com/w3c/ttml2/issues/254
Glenn: In this case I added a note that reflects the intended
disposition.
[29]rubyPosition in current ED
[29] https://w3c.github.io/ttml2/spec/ttml2.html#style-attribute-rubyPosition
Glenn: The note I added should reflect Richard's request.
Nigel: OK that seems reasonable to me.
SUMMARY: Group ok with this disposition
ttml2#256 Please provide more illustrations and examples for the ruby
sections
github: [30]https://github.com/w3c/ttml2/issues/256
[30] https://github.com/w3c/ttml2/issues/256
Glenn: Since i18n has closed this on their review tracker I
closed this.
Nigel: Seems fine to me.
SUMMARY: Disposition agreed by WG
Glenn: I'll create a label for indicating that the group has
agreed the disposition.
Thierry: What would be the label?
Nigel: There are two states to track: 1. Disposition agreed by
WG, 2. Disposition accepted by commenter.
Glenn: My intent was to indicate that the WG intent has been
agreed.
ttml2#258 How to space base characters where shiftRuby kicks in for
group ruby?
github: [31]https://github.com/w3c/ttml2/issues/258
[31] https://github.com/w3c/ttml2/issues/258
Glenn: This was a very interesting case that Richard raised,
where the JLReq shows a
... requirement that we didn't implement. Dae told us that the
Japanese subtitle companies
... have never asked for it, and it probably came out of
printed material, so on that basis
... i18n closed this on their tracker. I proposed a possible
future direction in case this
... behaviour is needed, and propose to close this for now.
Nigel: I support the current proposition, to do nothing but
indicate how we'd do it in the
... future if we had to.
SUMMARY: Disposition agreed by WG
ttml2#261 Should we allow more overhang for Chinese?
github: [32]https://github.com/w3c/ttml2/issues/261
[32] https://github.com/w3c/ttml2/issues/261
Glenn: i18n closed this issue, thanking us for looking at it.
Nigel: Looks good to me.
SUMMARY: Disposition agreed by WG
ttml2#263 It should be easier to specify direction for RTL script
users
github: [33]https://github.com/w3c/ttml2/issues/263
[33] https://github.com/w3c/ttml2/issues/263
Nigel: I see that Richard has closed this on the i18n tracker,
so I think this is all done.
Glenn: Part of this was education. On May 11 we resolved to
take no action and mark as
... works for me.
SUMMARY: No further action to take (WG already agreed
disposition)
ttml2#269 tts:writingMode example is not helpful
github: [34]https://github.com/w3c/ttml2/issues/269
[34] https://github.com/w3c/ttml2/issues/269
Nigel: Pierre proposed a fix for this which was merged, and
also added it to imsc-tests.
Glenn: We did those updates and i18n closed this in their
tracker.
... We closed this back on May 6
Nigel: Oh yes we probably shouldn't have since it was an HR
comment.
SUMMARY: No further action to take (WG already agreed
disposition)
ttml2#270 Can <named-item> altText have xml:lang?
github: [35]https://github.com/w3c/ttml2/issues/270
[35] https://github.com/w3c/ttml2/issues/270
Nigel: We did this, and Addison said he was satisfied.
Glenn: And i18n closed this on their tracker.
... I see Nigel closed this issue on April 28. I'm only raising
this here because I put it on my
... milestone to track the fact that we had addressed it.
SUMMARY: No further action to take (WG already agreed
disposition)
ttml2#271 Metadata examples do not include xml:lang (editorial)
github: [36]https://github.com/w3c/ttml2/issues/271
[36] https://github.com/w3c/ttml2/issues/271
Glenn: I commented that we haven't received further comments,
and closed it.
Nigel: It's been 3 months, and the proposed change (before
commit) got a thumbs-up from Richard.
Glenn: i18n disposed of the closely related #270 I suspect they
haven't tracked this, otherwise
... Richard would have said something.
SUMMARY: Group assumes there is no further comment on this, and
the disposition is agreed.
ttml2#397 Error in HLG HDR appendix step 8
github: [37]https://github.com/w3c/ttml2/issues/397
[37] https://github.com/w3c/ttml2/issues/397
Glenn: I merged #398 without any changes except to remove the
HTML generated version.
Nigel: Thank you, I always include that for easier previewing.
ttml2#401 animate attribute element list omits audio
github: [38]https://github.com/w3c/ttml2/issues/401
[38] https://github.com/w3c/ttml2/issues/401
Glenn: I made the fix for this, just an editorial one.
Nigel: Thank you.
github-bot, end topic
Glenn: We've now discussed all the issue I worked on, thank
you!
Meeting close
Nigel: I'm doubtful for next week but will send an agenda
regardless.
Glenn: Just to note that henceforth I will be available on
Thursday mornings so unless I
... send a regret I have no outstanding tentative regrets.
Nigel: Thanks all! [adjourn meeting]
Summary of Action Items
[NEW] ACTION: nigel Send CSSWG an invitation reminder by
2017-09-07 [recorded in
[39]http://www.w3.org/2017/08/31-tt-minutes.html#action01]
[39] http://www.w3.org/2017/08/31-tt-minutes.html#action01
Summary of Resolutions
[End of minutes]
__________________________________________________________
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Received on Thursday, 31 August 2017 15:44:29 UTC