- From: Nigel Megitt <nigel.megitt@bbc.co.uk>
- Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2016 15:22:44 +0000
- To: Timed Text Working Group <public-tt@w3.org>
- Message-ID: <D3DB9129.291CE%nigel.megitt@bbc.co.uk>
Thanks all for attending today's TTWG meeting. Minutes can be found in HTML format at https://www.w3.org/2016/08/18-tt-minutes.html
In text format:
[1]W3C
[1] http://www.w3.org/
Timed Text Working Group Teleconference
18 Aug 2016
See also: [2]IRC log
[2] http://www.w3.org/2016/08/18-tt-irc
Attendees
Present
Nigel, Glenn, Pierre, Mike
Regrets
Andreas, Frans
Chair
Nigel
Scribe
nigel
Contents
* [3]Topics
1. [4]This Meeting
2. [5]TPAC 2016
3. [6]TTML1 & TTML2 issues, actions, PRs, editorial
actions etc
* [7]Summary of Action Items
* [8]Summary of Resolutions
__________________________________________________________
This Meeting
nigel: Today I had planned for an extra 30 minutes for Dave
Singer to chair the agenda item
... on WebVTT but he tells me the preparation isn't ready yet
for that. So we can get the 30 minutes back or use it.
group: Need to finish after 60 minutes
<scribe> scribe: nigel
nigel: Agenda for today is TPAC, TTML. AOB?
group: No AOB.
tmichel: I sent a list today about a request from Amazon for
TTML2 tests, so if we do have
... up to date tests a pointer would be useful.
gadams: I followed up on that out of band and sent them a
pointer to the TTT github repo
... where there is some TTML2 test material, not W3C sanctioned
at this point.
tmichel: Thank you Glenn!
<gadams> I received the following from Mr Michel. The TTML2
test suite which will be created by the W3C for the purpose of
validating the TTML2 specification is not yet available as a
whole. However, there are some initial tests found under [1],
primarily at [2] and [3]. This project TTT [1] is a work in
progress, and support for TTML2 is currently being added, with
scheduled completion of March 2017. Note that this project is
not originated by W3C itself, but from a 3rd par
[1] http://www.w3.org/
[2] http://www.w3.org/2016/08/18-tt-irc
[1] http://www.w3.org/
<gadams> party, namely my company. [1]
[9]https://github.com/skynav/ttt [2]
[10]https://github.com/skynav/ttt/tree/master/ttt-ttv/src/test/
resources/com/skynav/ttv/ttml2 [3]
[11]https://github.com/skynav/ttt/tree/master/ttt-ttpe/src/test
/resources/com/skynav/ttpe/ttml2
[1] http://www.w3.org/
[9] https://github.com/skynav/ttt
[2] http://www.w3.org/2016/08/18-tt-irc
[10] https://github.com/skynav/ttt/tree/master/ttt-ttv/src/test/resources/com/skynav/ttv/ttml2
[11] https://github.com/skynav/ttt/tree/master/ttt-ttpe/src/test/resources/com/skynav/ttpe/ttml2
<tmichel> Glenn maybe you could copy me your email response
would be helpfull for a response from me.
<tmichel> thanks Glenn
nigel: I will also respond CC Thierry to explain the status of
the TTML2 work and when we will move to implementation/test
stuff.
mike: They may or may not mean TTML2. They may have grabbed the
latest spec but actually
... be interested in deployment of TTML1, specifically EBU-TT-D
and IMSC1 so it would be
... helpful to educate them on the status of those specs too,
and their test materials.
nigel: +1
gadams: I don't know for a fact but it's possible that they've
been talking to Netflix about TTML2 also.
nigel: There's no harm educating, so I'll do that.
TPAC 2016
nigel: Registration closes on Sep 2!
<tmichel> FYI Amazon is NOT a W3C Member. We tryed to have them
in for Digital publishing but they use their own KINDLE format
and not EPUB.
action-475?
<trackbot> action-475 -- Nigel Megitt to Contact the chair of
the web & tv ig to ask about schedule and joint meeting time.
-- due 2016-07-28 -- OPEN
<trackbot>
[12]http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/475
[12] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/475
tmichel: I will meet Yosuke next Tuesday so I'll ping him
directly by voice then.
nigel: Okay, thanks.
tmichel: I will tell him it is a priority because TPAC is
getting closer now.
nigel: True. On that topic I will give myself an action to put
together a straw man agenda
... that we can look at, adjust as needed before the meeting.
<scribe> ACTION: nigel Put together a TPAC straw man agenda
[recorded in
[13]http://www.w3.org/2016/08/18-tt-minutes.html#action01]
[13] http://www.w3.org/2016/08/18-tt-minutes.html#action01]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-476 - Put together a tpac straw man
agenda [on Nigel Megitt - due 2016-08-25].
nigel: Next week I'm on vacation so if someone wants to step in
and chair this meeting please
... volunteer, otherwise we have 3 meetings before the face to
face at TPAC.
... Please let me know any agenda items especially if they may
be unexpected.
glenn: We should probably coordinate on getting together on
Sunday evening if we want to.
nigel: I'd be happy to meet up at say 2000 based on my arrival
time.
glenn: Maybe those who are going to be there could let you know
their locations and we
... could triangulate.
nigel: Yes, sure, okay, also we usually put hotels etc on the
wiki meeting page, so I'll set that
... up as part of action-475
pal: I'll be there.
TTML1 & TTML2 issues, actions, PRs, editorial actions etc
action-462?
<trackbot> action-462 -- Glenn Adams to Create issue on ttml2
to add "mapping from other versions and profiles of ttml" --
due 2016-04-28 -- OPEN
<trackbot>
[14]http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/462
[14] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/462
glenn: No progress on that yet.
nigel: [diverts topic to IMSC temporarily] Pierre do we need to
talk about the IMSC roadmap PR?
pal: Not really, but I have been asked to update the wiki with
the latest IMSC implementations
... and plan to do that in the next week or so.
nigel: Is that also for test resources?
pal: For IMSC 1 we duplicated the implementation report so that
we can add new results,
... test vectors etc so that we could update this new page, so
that may be the right place to
... list IMSC 1 implementations, because they will also have
tests, test reports etc. Then I would
... add a link from the TTML and WebVTT implementations page to
the new IMSC implementations page.
... While I'm doing that I will also apply the PR.
nigel: [Back on TTML2 topic] There have been some new issues
also. What's best to discuss first?
... Let's cover position syntax first:
[15]https://github.com/w3c/ttml2/issues/174
[15] https://github.com/w3c/ttml2/issues/174
gadams: I was creating some test content for position and
backgroundPosition style attributes
... that are new to TTML2 and I discovered that there was a
missing rule in the grammar for
... position that effectively made it different than what CSS3
uses for position. CSS3 Background
... and Borders defines the CSS3 property position allows you
to reverse the horizontal and
... vertical components of the position specification, but they
allow vertical first and horizontal second.
... That was apparently an oversight when I transcribed the
grammar.
nigel: How do you know which way round the values are, if
that's not a stupid question?
gadams: That's a good question, particularly because the
keyword "center" can apply to both.
... If you use top or bottom first then it's clear that you
mean a vertical offset.
<gadams> <style tts:backgroundPosition="center left"/> <!-- NG
--> <!-- TTML does not support this valid CSS3 expression -->
<style tts:backgroundPosition="center right"/> <!-- NG --> <!--
TTML does not support this valid CSS3 expression --> <style
tts:backgroundPosition="top center"/> <!-- NG --> <!-- TTML
does not support this valid CSS3 expression --> <style
tts:backgroundPosition="bottom
gadams: I've pasted above the four test cases (not well
formatted) that did not quite work.
nigel: In the issue you use offset-position-h and
offset-position-v but in CSS the interchangeable
... terms are keyword-position-h and keyword-position-v.
<gadams> [16]https://www.w3.org/TR/ttml2/#style-value-position
[16] https://www.w3.org/TR/ttml2/#style-value-position
gadams: For the 2 component value it was missing the reverse
version. This is expanded
... out as opposed to abbreviated compared to the CSS3 spec.
nigel: At least one of the position keywords must be present to
resolve reversed values.
gadams: That's right, and they have to be something other than
"center".
... It is probably worth noting under the grammar that two
linked or center values should
... be mapped to offset horizontal followed by vertical.
nigel: Okay, let's move on to
[17]https://github.com/w3c/ttml2/issues/168
... The background here is that it was unclear if implied
anonymous regions should be
... implemented as new regions or modifications to current
regions. Since then Glenn has
... added a note to the issue to suggest that we add a
parameter attribute to direct the
... behaviour, which sounds like a good idea to me.
[17] https://github.com/w3c/ttml2/issues/168
gadams: I hadn't thought about the modification option before
you raised it Nigel but I'm
... willing to give it a try both in the specification and the
implementation.
pal: What's the advantage of having both methods?
gadams: The modification approach allows region styling to be
maintained while applying an
... anonymous set of the region origin and extent, for border,
backroundColor etc.
pal: What's important to understand is whether the adopters of
this syntax also intended to
... apply region styling with their method. For example if I
use tts:extent and tts:position on a
... p then I cannot apply backgroundColor on that and hope that
it applies. It would be good to know
... what they intended, and to dig deeper before concluding
that we need to support both methods.
gadams: I'm assuming based on experience and having talked to
people that their understanding
... was based on creating a new region.
nigel: I suspect that the users of this syntax never added the
complexity of region styling
... or even had temporally overlapping content. For those
documents then it won't make
... any difference which approach is used. For more complex
uses then it would be helpful to have the choice.
gadams: One of the best arguments against the modification
approach is the use of two
... temporally overlapping content elements in the same region.
I also know Netflix has a
... definite requirement for the flavour of creating a new
region.
pal: There are tons of tools that put extent and origin on
elements other than region. We're
... trying to reverse engineer that into TTML2. The other
option that we should consider is
... simply allowing all the region styling on p and just apply
to the anonymous region.
gadams: That doesn't work because we have a growing number of
properties that apply to
... both content and region, like padding, border, bpd and ipd,
and more. They apply
... independently to both content elements and regions. It
would make the spec much more
... complicated if I have to try to explain how to handle those
dual use properties.
nigel: I'm sympathetic to keeping things simple, and adding a
new parameter is adding
... complexity, but in this case I think there's utility in
both approaches so I would propose
... we add it in and then if necessary later put it in the at
risk list for CR.
pal: Another approach is to say that if a region is not
specified then it would mean 'new' or
... if a region is also specified then it would mean
'modified'. That would prevent the addition
... of features.
nigel: Ok, we're out of time so let's adjourn for today.
mike: By the way, I've just submitted
[18]https://github.com/w3c/tt-profile-registry/pull/25
... Do we want to review and merge it now?
[18] https://github.com/w3c/tt-profile-registry/pull/25
nigel: Let's not rush for the sake of the meeting, and look at
it offline - if we can add our
... "LGTM"s etc then we can merge on that basis.
mike: OK, thanks.
nigel: Shall we go ahead with a volunteer chair for next week?
group: Skip next week.
nigel: Okay, see you in 2 weeks then. Thanks all!
... [adjourns meeting]
Summary of Action Items
[NEW] ACTION: nigel Put together a TPAC straw man agenda
[recorded in
[19]http://www.w3.org/2016/08/18-tt-minutes.html#action01]
[19] http://www.w3.org/2016/08/18-tt-minutes.html#action01
Summary of Resolutions
[End of minutes]
__________________________________________________________
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Received on Thursday, 18 August 2016 15:23:11 UTC