{minutes} TTWG Meeting 2015-07-23

Thanks for attending today's TTWG meeting. Minutes in HTML format are available at: http://www.w3.org/2015/07/23-tt-minutes.html


Please note that to recover from a scribing error I regenerated the IRC log manually and therefore all the times in it are incorrect. The meeting ran from approximately 10:08-10:43 Boston time. Note to self: tell trackbot to start the meeting next time. And if I don't please could someone remind me?!


Thanks from me to Pierre for chairing last week, and Thierry for sending out the minutes.


Today's minutes in text format:


   [1]W3C

      [1] http://www.w3.org/


                Timed Text Working Group Teleconference

23 Jul 2015

   See also: [2]IRC log

      [2] http://www.w3.org/2015/07/23-tt-irc


Attendees

   Present
          Frans, atai2, Courtney, pal, nigel

   Regrets
          glenn

   Chair
          nigel

   Scribe
          nigel

Contents

     * [3]Topics
         1. [4]This meeting
         2. [5]Action Items
         3. [6]Issues
         4. [7]TPAC 2015
         5. [8]WebVTT TTML mapping
     * [9]Summary of Action Items
     __________________________________________________________

   <trackbot> Date: 23 July 2015

   <scribe> scribe: nigel

This meeting

   nigel: Runs through likely agenda. Any other business?

   group: No AOB

Action Items

   nigel: Glenn sent an update before the meeting - he has nothing
   to report on his actions.
   ... Andreas, how is Action-406 looking, re HTMLCue?

   atai: It's on my list, but nothing to report now.

   Action-409?

   <trackbot> Action-409 -- Nigel Megitt to Discuss liaison with
   unicode with richard ishida -- due 2015-07-09 -- OPEN

   <trackbot>
   [10]http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/409


     [10] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/409


   nigel: I got a response from Richard Ishida.
   ...
   [11]http://sandflow.com/public/cldr/imsc-codepoint-table.htm

   ... He asks why there are very few blue characters in some
   locales.

     [11] http://sandflow.com/public/cldr/imsc-codepoint-table.htm


   pal: The blue characters are the ones that are already in the
   main and punctuation and digit character
   ... sets for those locales. The non-blue ones show those that
   would effectively be added to the
   ... existing character sets for each locale. I'm happy to
   clarify that if it was not clear in the original
   ... communication.

   nigel: He also suggests that Unicode would want us to propose
   how the characters would be
   ... integrated into CLDR, i.e. are we proposing new categories
   including all the characters or just
   ... new categories for the additional characters for subtitles
   and captions.

   pal: I think for ease of review, just including the delta is
   going to be harder for the reviewer to look at
   ... instead of the full set of characters including those that
   are already in the main and punctuation
   ... sets. I'm interested in the feedback from this group. I
   found that when I just tried to generate
   ... the delta, i.e. just those characters that are not already
   present in Main and Punctuation that leads
   ... to a disjointed set. I think it would be easier for
   reviewers to see the whole set. Also perhaps in
   ... some languages there is a real difference between
   characters typically used in everyday print
   ... media or chat, etc, compared with those available and
   appropriate for subtitling and captions.

   nigel: There's a trade-off between ease of review and ease of
   maintenance, if Unicode has to add
   ... any new code points to two sets for each locale instead of
   one.

   pal: We could propose an algorithm. I am happy to propose a
   more detailed proposal if that's what
   ... you sense is what they want.

   nigel: I do get the sense from Richard that Mark would like
   something quite detailed and specific
   ... as a proposal to review.

   pal: Okay I'm happy to propose that with a set of rules.

   action-409: [Meeting 2015-07-23] pal to generate a more
   detailed proposal of what we're asking Unicode to do.

   <trackbot> Notes added to action-409 Discuss liaison with
   unicode with richard ishida.

Issues

   issue-399?

   <trackbot> issue-399 -- add errata for initial value fallback
   language -- open

   <trackbot>
   [12]http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/399


     [12] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/399


   pal: In seeking feedback on IMSC I didn't understand the style
   inheritance rules, but in answering my
   ... question on the topic Glenn found an issue that he's
   proposing to fix.

   nigel: I'm not sure what the impact of that is.

   pal: Me too. It's a complex algorithm, so I'm not sure what the
   impact is.

   reopen issue-399

   <trackbot> Re-opened issue-399.

   nigel: The issue has the email thread attached, which is
   helpful.
   ... Is this to do with the inheritance of styles either from
   regions or from styles?

   pal: Yes, exactly. There are lots of combinations of inheriting
   from parent elements, specifying styles inline and others.

   nigel: I looked at that once a while back in assisting with an
   implementation, and it turned out to be
   ... surprisingly simple for most styles, in that you just ended
   up generating a list and searching for
   ... the first one of the required type, starting from the
   correct end of the list. It was computationally
   ... simple, though I suspect there are complexities that we may
   have missed, and things like fontSize
   ... expressed in % are of course relative to the parent.

TPAC 2015

   nigel: I may have mentioned before, but in case I didn't,
   registration is open.
   ... [13]http://www.w3.org/2015/10/TPAC/ for the details of
   registration.
   ... Also [14]https://www.w3.org/wiki/TimedText/tpac2015 for our
   own registration and agenda.

     [13] http://www.w3.org/2015/10/TPAC/

     [14] https://www.w3.org/wiki/TimedText/tpac2015


WebVTT TTML mapping

   Courtney: We're making progress on this, nothing to bring to
   the group yet.

   pal: Have you run into any major issues, or is it merely a
   question of filling the holes in a framework.

   Courtney: We're taking the approach of defining a profile in
   TTML that will map to WebVTT, which
   ... was Andreas's idea. We may want to extend it in the future.
   By taking a subset of TTML it makes
   ... the mapping pretty straightforward in some ways.

   pal: That was the plan in Las Vegas I think. What's the
   relation between that and IMSC1?

   atai: I think it should be a subset of IMSC1.

   pal: Can you tell now which features from IMSC1 will be or will
   not be included? I'm happy to help by the way.

   atai: I think there are some features absent from IMSC, like
   aspectRatio, progressivelyDecodable,
   ... multiRowAlign that are not mappable straight into WebVTT.
   Possibly the best thing to do is to
   ... look at the list when we have the first draft ready.

   Courtney: Possibly we could send Pierre the profile to look at
   early, but we should have the profile
   ... ready relatively soon.

   atai: The intention of the profile is to not include any
   features that cannot be mapped, but also
   ... to restrict the TTML structure to make it easier to map to
   WebVTT.

   nigel: You mean algorithmically easy to map?

   atai: Yes, for example the timing. You can make certain aspects
   simpler to make it easier to map.
   ... It needs to be seen in context rather than discussed on its
   own. There's a lot to be done, which
   ... could be done inside TTML, like mapping to a certain state
   that makes it comparable to WebVTT
   ... to make the mapping algorithm easier.

   nigel: Is that coincident with Glenn's ISD plan?

   atai: No I don't think so.

   nigel: Rather than having two transformations it might be
   better to have one that's more useful.

   pal: The reason I'm asking is I'm getting requests from IMSC
   users. When is the target date for a
   ... first draft?

   Courtney: I don't know exactly - we're going to have a call
   after this to sync up. I think some time
   ... in August for a first draft.

   nigel: That's great. Are there any other technical questions
   that have arisen from that work?

   atai: Not from my side.

   Courtney: I don't have any yet.

   nigel: We've hit the end of our agenda, so I'll adjourn the
   meeting. Thanks very much everyone.
   ... [adjourns meeting]

Summary of Action Items

   [End of minutes]
     __________________________________________________________


    Minutes formatted by David Booth's [15]scribe.perl version
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     [15] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm

     [16] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/






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