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Re: {minutes} TTWG Meeting 11/9/2014

From: Silvia Pfeiffer <silviapfeiffer1@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2014 10:37:15 +1000
Message-ID: <CAHp8n2kGpbQKpm0HrPQN_tUriBFSjzkYUPu11FUYVE4h2e++Ng@mail.gmail.com>
To: Courtney Kennedy <ckennedy@apple.com>
Cc: Public TTWG List <public-tt@w3.org>, Nigel Megitt <nigel.megitt@bbc.co.uk>
Excellent. I'm sure you're aware of the test files in the WebKit
repository, too, then, just making sure.

Best Regards,
Silvia.
On 12 Sep 2014 10:35, "Courtney Kennedy" <ckennedy@apple.com> wrote:

> Silvia,
>
> Thanks for these notes.  My team is not trying reinvent the test suite
> approach, but instead we are focusing on creating test vtt files to
> exercise the features in the spec.  We will add our content to the existing
> github repository once we have it done.
>
> Courtney
>
> On Sep 11, 2014, at 5:12 PM, Silvia Pfeiffer <silviapfeiffer1@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > On Fri, Sep 12, 2014 at 1:12 AM, Nigel Megitt <nigel.megitt@bbc.co.uk>
> wrote:
> >> Thanks all for attending today's TTWG meeting. Minutes in HTML format
> can be
> >> found at: http://www.w3.org/2014/09/11-tt-minutes.html
> >>
> >> We made one Resolution: RESOLUTION: We will not update SDP-US for TTML2.
> >> The provisional period for this resolution under our Decision Policy
> will
> >> end on Thursday 25th September.
> >>
> >> Minutes in text format:
> >>
> >>   [1]W3C
> >>
> >>      [1] http://www.w3.org/
> >>
> >>                               - DRAFT -
> >>
> >>                Timed Text Working Group Teleconference
> >>
> >> 11 Sep 2014
> >>
> >>   See also: [2]IRC log
> >>
> >>      [2] http://www.w3.org/2014/09/11-tt-irc
> >>
> >> Attendees
> >>
> >>   Present
> >>          pal, nigel, jdsmith, courtney, tmichel
> >>
> >>   Regrets
> >>          glenn, andreas
> >>
> >>   Chair
> >>          nigel
> >>
> >>   Scribe
> >>          nigel
> >>
> >> Contents
> >>
> >>     * [3]Topics
> >>         1. [4]This meeting
> >>         2. [5]Geneva F2F September
> >>         3. [6]Santa Clara F2F October (TPAC)
> >>         4. [7]Action items
> >>         5. [8]Issues
> >>         6. [9]IMSC 1 Issues
> >>     * [10]Summary of Action Items
> >>     __________________________________________________________
> >>
> >>   <trackbot> Date: 11 September 2014
> >>
> >>   <scribe> scribeNick: nigel
> >>
> >> This meeting
> >>
> >> Geneva F2F September
> >>
> >>   [11]https://www.w3.org/wiki/TimedText/geneva2014
> >>
> >>     [11] https://www.w3.org/wiki/TimedText/geneva2014
> >>
> >>   courtney: My goal is to have sample code that will map from
> >>   TTML to WebVTT and back the other way and also a paper that
> >>   ... describes how to do the mapping both ways. I've made a lot
> >>   of progress - it won't be finished next week. I want to go
> >>   through the TTML attributes.
> >>   ... Andreas has also been working on a mapping and we've been
> >>   coordinating our efforts. He's focussed on the EBU-TT-D profile
> >>   primarily. He also wants to present his work.
> >>   ... I've identified some areas in both specs where there is no
> >>   equivalent, and it would be good to highlight those.
> >
> > Good. I am curious about those, too.
> >
> >
> >>   nigel: +1
> >>   ... Is there a good version of WebVTT we should be referencing?
> >>
> >>   courtney: I'm using the most recent draft, which I think will
> >>   become 1.0.
> >>
> >>   <courtney> [12]http://dev.w3.org/html5/webvtt/
> >>
> >>     [12] http://dev.w3.org/html5/webvtt/
> >
> > Yes, that's appropriate.
> >
> >
> >>   nigel: Great, we'll use that as our baseline dated on Tuesday.
> >>   ... Without wishing to steal Frans's thunder, he tells me EBU
> >>   has offered to sponsor lunch on both days. Thanks EBU!
> >>   ... I'll ask for it at 12:30.
> >>   ... On day 2 we have a write-a-test hackathon - any thoughts on
> >>   the test format?
> >>
> >>   courtney: There's no test suite for WebVTT yet - my team is
> >>   working on that.
> >
> > There is a whole test suite at
> > https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/tree/master/webvtt .
> > Also, there are in-band WebM files at
> > https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/tree/master/media if you
> > need it from in-band.
> >
> > I hope you're not trying to create a separate way of building a test
> > suite - that's the now standard automated test suite approach in that
> > github repository.
> >
> > It would be great if you could contribute though and help fix any
> > bugs! That would also help work towards taking WebVTT to CR.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Silvia.
> >
> >>   ... The TTML test suite covers a lot of cases, so one thought I
> >>   had is to convert them all to WebVTT.
> >>   ... We're also looking at it from the WebVTT spec perspective.
> >>
> >>   nigel: I understood that Wednesday's work will be for testing
> >>   the mappings rather than each spec.
> >>   ... How much time do we need to set aside for IMSC 1 blocking
> >>   issues on Wednesday?
> >>
> >>   pal: I think there's only one real issue for discussion, which
> >>   is #overflow because there's a difference in understanding of
> >>   the impact.
> >>   ... On the other ones, largely from the comments so far I don't
> >>   expect much discussion.
> >>   ... On Change Proposal 28 that's something I'm not sure we need
> >>   any more. We may be able to remove that.
> >>
> >>   nigel: I'll re-examine CP28 and see if I can withdraw it.
> >>
> >>   pal: Without that I think that leaves Issue-339, and I don't
> >>   expect us to need more than 1 hour on that.
> >>   ... I'll be happy to drive the IMSC 1 issues on Wednesday
> >>   morning.
> >>
> >>   nigel: We also have an agenda item on our TTWG process.
> >>
> >>   pal: Did we resolve that?
> >>
> >>   nigel: The consensus call had an end date of Wednesday. I
> >>   intend to raise it on Wednesday and conclude the topic with a
> >>   resolution. So far I've heard no negative comments.
> >>
> >> Santa Clara F2F October (TPAC)
> >>
> >>   [13]http://www.w3.org/wiki/TimedText/tpac2014
> >>
> >>     [13] http://www.w3.org/wiki/TimedText/tpac2014
> >>
> >>   nigel: The structure of each day is a little different than
> >>   last year - WG meetings will run 0830-1100 and 1500-1800 with
> >>   lunch and ad hoc meetings from 1100-1500.
> >>   ... Please let me know if you need a telco facility.
> >>
> >>   pal: I suggest planning for one, and not using it if we don't
> >>   need it.
> >>
> >>   tmichel: I suggest using it for specific slots rather than the
> >>   entire day.
> >>   ... There's no difference in terms of cost but we need to
> >>   reserve the speaker phone.
> >>
> >>   nigel: I'll amend our wbs survey and reserve it.
> >>   ... I expect the agenda to be TTML2 and the TTML<-->WebVTT
> >>   mapping.
> >>
> >>   pal: I suggest we take 30 minutes next week to discuss the CR
> >>   process and next steps and timeline for IMSC 1, based on
> >>   whether we use the 2005 or 2014 process.
> >>
> >>   nigel: good point.
> >>
> >> Action items
> >>
> >>   action-325?
> >>
> >>   <trackbot> action-325 -- Pierre-Anthony Lemieux to Check if
> >>   respec has been updated for the 2014 w3c process -- due
> >>   2014-09-11 -- PENDINGREVIEW
> >>
> >>   <trackbot>
> >>   [14]http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/325
> >>
> >>     [14] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/325
> >>
> >>   pal: Respec has been given an additional config option to
> >>   select process, so that's all done as far as I can tell.
> >>
> >>   close action-325
> >>
> >>   <trackbot> Closed action-325.
> >>
> >>   action-322?
> >>
> >>   <trackbot> action-322 -- Jerry Smith to Indicate preference for
> >>   updating sdp-us for ttml2 -- due 2014-08-21 -- PENDINGREVIEW
> >>
> >>   <trackbot>
> >>   [15]http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/322
> >>
> >>     [15] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/322
> >>
> >>   jdsmith: I think focusing on IMSC rather than updating SDP-US
> >>   is the better path. We're the only current implementor that I
> >>   know of and I don't think we see value in revving the spec or
> >>   the implementation.
> >>
> >>   RESOLUTION: We will not update SDP-US for TTML2.
> >>
> >>   close action-322
> >>
> >>   <trackbot> Closed action-322.
> >>
> >>   action-324?
> >>
> >>   <trackbot> action-324 -- Pierre-Anthony Lemieux to Draft a note
> >>   for imsc 1 progressivelydecodable to make concrete what authors
> >>   should take into account -- due 2014-08-21 -- PENDINGREVIEW
> >>
> >>   <trackbot>
> >>   [16]http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/324
> >>
> >>     [16] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/324
> >>
> >>   close action-324
> >>
> >>   <trackbot> Closed action-324.
> >>
> >> Issues
> >>
> >>   issue-344?
> >>
> >>   <trackbot> issue-344 -- Add a clarification note expressing
> >>   intent behind unqualified attribute names -- raised
> >>
> >>   <trackbot>
> >>   [17]http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/344
> >>
> >>     [17] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/344
> >>
> >>   reopen issue-344
> >>
> >>   <trackbot> Re-opened issue-344.
> >>
> >> IMSC 1 Issues
> >>
> >>   issue-340?
> >>
> >>   <trackbot> issue-340 -- Make clear that the use of the
> >>   ttp:profile attribute is not required. -- pending review
> >>
> >>   <trackbot>
> >>   [18]http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/340
> >>
> >>     [18] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/340
> >>
> >>   pal: I made two changes to implement this, both a note and a
> >>   change of wording from 'profile SHALL be associated' to
> >>   'profile is associated'.
> >>
> >>   <scribe> ACTION: frans Review resolution to Issue-340 and add
> >>   review comments to issue [recorded in
> >>   [19]http://www.w3.org/2014/09/11-tt-minutes.html#action01]
> >>
> >>   <trackbot> Created ACTION-326 - Review resolution to issue-340
> >>   and add review comments to issue [on Frans de Jong - due
> >>   2014-09-18].
> >>
> >>   issue-343?
> >>
> >>   <trackbot> issue-343 -- Processing of non-IMSC/TTML namespace
> >>   elements -- pending review
> >>
> >>   <trackbot>
> >>   [20]http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/343
> >>
> >>     [20] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/343
> >>
> >>   <scribe> ACTION: frans Review resolution to Issue-343 and add
> >>   review comments to issue [recorded in
> >>   [21]http://www.w3.org/2014/09/11-tt-minutes.html#action02]
> >>
> >>   <trackbot> Created ACTION-327 - Review resolution to issue-343
> >>   and add review comments to issue [on Frans de Jong - due
> >>   2014-09-18].
> >>
> >>   pal: We have some issues making blanket statements about
> >>   foreign namespaces here - the rule is simpler: if it's not
> >>   forbidden then it's allowed.
> >>   ... I couldn't find a way to word it relating to foreign
> >>   namespaces without getting really convoluted.
> >>   ... Because there are some things from specified foreign
> >>   namespaces from SMPTE and EBU that are permitted.
> >>   ... The next issues aren't captured yet in the tracker because
> >>   I wanted to make sure that the reflector didn't generate
> >>   further comments.
> >>   ... Those are the three issues I emailed about yesterday:
> >>   issue-332, issue-342, issue-339.
> >>
> >>   issue-332?
> >>
> >>   <trackbot> issue-332 -- #cellResolution support -- open
> >>
> >>   <trackbot>
> >>   [22]http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/332
> >>
> >>     [22] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/332
> >>
> >>   pal: I don't expect much further concern on this. The
> >>   background is simple: IMSC 1 forbids ttp:cellResolution. The
> >>   request was for any permitted value to be used.
> >>   ... That only affects the maths for the c metric, and there's
> >>   no further impact. So the proposal is to lift the prohibition.
> >>
> >>   nigel: LGTM
> >>
> >>   pal: I plan to implement these changes if I don't hear any more
> >>   in the next few days.
> >>
> >>   issue-342?
> >>
> >>   <trackbot> issue-342 -- Add ebutts:multiRowAlign and
> >>   ebutts:linePadding attributes to the IMSC Text Profile -- open
> >>
> >>   <trackbot>
> >>   [23]http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/342
> >>
> >>     [23] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/342
> >>
> >>   pal: These extensions are intended to allow timed text
> >>   presentation of a style that's consistent with European
> >>   practice, and perhaps elsewhere in the world.
> >>   ... This does require adding a feature to the IMSC layout
> >>   engine, but not to the HRM. It looks like a processor can
> >>   ignore them and still yield reasonable results. My suggestion
> >>   is to add those features,
> >>   ... even as a SHALL, and move forward with that. The only
> >>   caveat is these features may appear in TTML2.
> >>
> >>   nigel: This is analogous to the IMSC 1 situation with
> >>   forcedDisplay, in that TTML2 may do it differently and IMSC 2
> >>   would adopt the TTML2 way.
> >>
> >>   Issue-342: Make sure to include a note along the lines of the
> >>   forcedDisplay note that TTML2 and IMSC 2 may do it differently.
> >>
> >>   <trackbot> Notes added to Issue-342 Add ebutts:multiRowAlign
> >>   and ebutts:linePadding attributes to the IMSC Text Profile.
> >>
> >>   issue-339?
> >>
> >>   <trackbot> issue-339 -- Allow the use of #overflow -- open
> >>
> >>   <trackbot>
> >>   [24]http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/339
> >>
> >>     [24] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/339
> >>
> >>   pal: F2F discussion may be needed here. IMSC 1 forbids
> >>   tts:overflow="visible" because that mutes the specified extent
> >>   of the region.
> >>   ... This has profound implications for the HRM and because from
> >>   an authorial standpoint, to me and others, the author has no
> >>   idea how big the region will eventually be.
> >>   ... I'm also trying to understand what the use cases are for
> >>   tts:overflow="visible" provides a benefit.
> >>
> >>   nigel: There's a tension here between region size and font
> >>   size, where rendered font sizes can not be known at authoring
> >>   time.
> >>   ... Overflow allows for some safety there.
> >>
> >>   pal: That's what reference fonts are designed to address.
> >>
> >>   courtney: What about when implementations allow users to
> >>   override settings?
> >>
> >>   pal: In that case the implementation would need to know how to
> >>   expand the regions to compensate, if, say, the font size is
> >>   doubled.
> >>   ... I'm happy to add a note to the spec to explain this.
> >>
> >>   nigel: At first a reflector response along those lines (i.e.
> >>   about reference fonts) would be helpful.
> >>
> >>   pal: Notwithstanding CP28 I think this concludes all the
> >>   outstanding notes on IMSC, so we have a realistic shot at
> >>   moving along on our proposed timeline - thank you all.
> >>
> >>   nigel: adjourns meeting - thanks all, and see you at 0900 at
> >>   the EBU in Geneva!
> >>
> >> Summary of Action Items
> >>
> >>   [NEW] ACTION: frans Review resolution to Issue-340 and add
> >>   review comments to issue [recorded in
> >>   [25]http://www.w3.org/2014/09/11-tt-minutes.html#action01]
> >>   [NEW] ACTION: frans Review resolution to Issue-343 and add
> >>   review comments to issue [recorded in
> >>   [26]http://www.w3.org/2014/09/11-tt-minutes.html#action02]
> >>
> >>   [End of minutes]
> >>     __________________________________________________________
> >>
> >>
> >>    Minutes formatted by David Booth's [27]scribe.perl version
> >>    1.138 ([28]CVS log)
> >>    $Date: 2014-09-11 15:07:25 $
> >>     __________________________________________________________
> >>
> >>     [27] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm
> >>     [28] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/
> >>
> >>
> >
>
> ____________
> Courtney Kennedy 408.974.3386, mobile: 408.771.8615
> Engineering Manager, Media Sharing
> Apple, Inc.
>
>
>
>
Received on Friday, 12 September 2014 00:37:43 UTC

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