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{minutes} TTWG Meeting 11/9/2014

From: Nigel Megitt <nigel.megitt@bbc.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2014 15:12:58 +0000
To: Timed Text Working Group <public-tt@w3.org>
Message-ID: <D037796B.11565%nigel.megitt@bbc.co.uk>
Thanks all for attending today's TTWG meeting. Minutes in HTML format can be found at: http://www.w3.org/2014/09/11-tt-minutes.html


We made one Resolution: RESOLUTION: We will not update SDP-US for TTML2.
The provisional period for this resolution under our Decision Policy will end on Thursday 25th September.

Minutes in text format:


   [1]W3C

      [1] http://www.w3.org/


                               - DRAFT -

                Timed Text Working Group Teleconference

11 Sep 2014

   See also: [2]IRC log

      [2] http://www.w3.org/2014/09/11-tt-irc


Attendees

   Present
          pal, nigel, jdsmith, courtney, tmichel

   Regrets
          glenn, andreas

   Chair
          nigel

   Scribe
          nigel

Contents

     * [3]Topics
         1. [4]This meeting
         2. [5]Geneva F2F September
         3. [6]Santa Clara F2F October (TPAC)
         4. [7]Action items
         5. [8]Issues
         6. [9]IMSC 1 Issues
     * [10]Summary of Action Items
     __________________________________________________________

   <trackbot> Date: 11 September 2014

   <scribe> scribeNick: nigel

This meeting

Geneva F2F September

   [11]https://www.w3.org/wiki/TimedText/geneva2014


     [11] https://www.w3.org/wiki/TimedText/geneva2014


   courtney: My goal is to have sample code that will map from
   TTML to WebVTT and back the other way and also a paper that
   ... describes how to do the mapping both ways. I've made a lot
   of progress - it won't be finished next week. I want to go
   through the TTML attributes.
   ... Andreas has also been working on a mapping and we've been
   coordinating our efforts. He's focussed on the EBU-TT-D profile
   primarily. He also wants to present his work.
   ... I've identified some areas in both specs where there is no
   equivalent, and it would be good to highlight those.

   nigel: +1
   ... Is there a good version of WebVTT we should be referencing?

   courtney: I'm using the most recent draft, which I think will
   become 1.0.

   <courtney> [12]http://dev.w3.org/html5/webvtt/


     [12] http://dev.w3.org/html5/webvtt/


   nigel: Great, we'll use that as our baseline dated on Tuesday.
   ... Without wishing to steal Frans's thunder, he tells me EBU
   has offered to sponsor lunch on both days. Thanks EBU!
   ... I'll ask for it at 12:30.
   ... On day 2 we have a write-a-test hackathon - any thoughts on
   the test format?

   courtney: There's no test suite for WebVTT yet - my team is
   working on that.
   ... The TTML test suite covers a lot of cases, so one thought I
   had is to convert them all to WebVTT.
   ... We're also looking at it from the WebVTT spec perspective.

   nigel: I understood that Wednesday's work will be for testing
   the mappings rather than each spec.
   ... How much time do we need to set aside for IMSC 1 blocking
   issues on Wednesday?

   pal: I think there's only one real issue for discussion, which
   is #overflow because there's a difference in understanding of
   the impact.
   ... On the other ones, largely from the comments so far I don't
   expect much discussion.
   ... On Change Proposal 28 that's something I'm not sure we need
   any more. We may be able to remove that.

   nigel: I'll re-examine CP28 and see if I can withdraw it.

   pal: Without that I think that leaves Issue-339, and I don't
   expect us to need more than 1 hour on that.
   ... I'll be happy to drive the IMSC 1 issues on Wednesday
   morning.

   nigel: We also have an agenda item on our TTWG process.

   pal: Did we resolve that?

   nigel: The consensus call had an end date of Wednesday. I
   intend to raise it on Wednesday and conclude the topic with a
   resolution. So far I've heard no negative comments.

Santa Clara F2F October (TPAC)

   [13]http://www.w3.org/wiki/TimedText/tpac2014


     [13] http://www.w3.org/wiki/TimedText/tpac2014


   nigel: The structure of each day is a little different than
   last year - WG meetings will run 0830-1100 and 1500-1800 with
   lunch and ad hoc meetings from 1100-1500.
   ... Please let me know if you need a telco facility.

   pal: I suggest planning for one, and not using it if we don't
   need it.

   tmichel: I suggest using it for specific slots rather than the
   entire day.
   ... There's no difference in terms of cost but we need to
   reserve the speaker phone.

   nigel: I'll amend our wbs survey and reserve it.
   ... I expect the agenda to be TTML2 and the TTML<-->WebVTT
   mapping.

   pal: I suggest we take 30 minutes next week to discuss the CR
   process and next steps and timeline for IMSC 1, based on
   whether we use the 2005 or 2014 process.

   nigel: good point.

Action items

   action-325?

   <trackbot> action-325 -- Pierre-Anthony Lemieux to Check if
   respec has been updated for the 2014 w3c process -- due
   2014-09-11 -- PENDINGREVIEW

   <trackbot>
   [14]http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/325


     [14] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/325


   pal: Respec has been given an additional config option to
   select process, so that's all done as far as I can tell.

   close action-325

   <trackbot> Closed action-325.

   action-322?

   <trackbot> action-322 -- Jerry Smith to Indicate preference for
   updating sdp-us for ttml2 -- due 2014-08-21 -- PENDINGREVIEW

   <trackbot>
   [15]http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/322


     [15] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/322


   jdsmith: I think focusing on IMSC rather than updating SDP-US
   is the better path. We're the only current implementor that I
   know of and I don't think we see value in revving the spec or
   the implementation.

   RESOLUTION: We will not update SDP-US for TTML2.

   close action-322

   <trackbot> Closed action-322.

   action-324?

   <trackbot> action-324 -- Pierre-Anthony Lemieux to Draft a note
   for imsc 1 progressivelydecodable to make concrete what authors
   should take into account -- due 2014-08-21 -- PENDINGREVIEW

   <trackbot>
   [16]http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/324


     [16] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/324


   close action-324

   <trackbot> Closed action-324.

Issues

   issue-344?

   <trackbot> issue-344 -- Add a clarification note expressing
   intent behind unqualified attribute names -- raised

   <trackbot>
   [17]http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/344


     [17] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/344


   reopen issue-344

   <trackbot> Re-opened issue-344.

IMSC 1 Issues

   issue-340?

   <trackbot> issue-340 -- Make clear that the use of the
   ttp:profile attribute is not required. -- pending review

   <trackbot>
   [18]http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/340


     [18] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/340


   pal: I made two changes to implement this, both a note and a
   change of wording from 'profile SHALL be associated' to
   'profile is associated'.

   <scribe> ACTION: frans Review resolution to Issue-340 and add
   review comments to issue [recorded in
   [19]http://www.w3.org/2014/09/11-tt-minutes.html#action01]

   <trackbot> Created ACTION-326 - Review resolution to issue-340
   and add review comments to issue [on Frans de Jong - due
   2014-09-18].

   issue-343?

   <trackbot> issue-343 -- Processing of non-IMSC/TTML namespace
   elements -- pending review

   <trackbot>
   [20]http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/343


     [20] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/343


   <scribe> ACTION: frans Review resolution to Issue-343 and add
   review comments to issue [recorded in
   [21]http://www.w3.org/2014/09/11-tt-minutes.html#action02]

   <trackbot> Created ACTION-327 - Review resolution to issue-343
   and add review comments to issue [on Frans de Jong - due
   2014-09-18].

   pal: We have some issues making blanket statements about
   foreign namespaces here - the rule is simpler: if it's not
   forbidden then it's allowed.
   ... I couldn't find a way to word it relating to foreign
   namespaces without getting really convoluted.
   ... Because there are some things from specified foreign
   namespaces from SMPTE and EBU that are permitted.
   ... The next issues aren't captured yet in the tracker because
   I wanted to make sure that the reflector didn't generate
   further comments.
   ... Those are the three issues I emailed about yesterday:
   issue-332, issue-342, issue-339.

   issue-332?

   <trackbot> issue-332 -- #cellResolution support -- open

   <trackbot>
   [22]http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/332


     [22] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/332


   pal: I don't expect much further concern on this. The
   background is simple: IMSC 1 forbids ttp:cellResolution. The
   request was for any permitted value to be used.
   ... That only affects the maths for the c metric, and there's
   no further impact. So the proposal is to lift the prohibition.

   nigel: LGTM

   pal: I plan to implement these changes if I don't hear any more
   in the next few days.

   issue-342?

   <trackbot> issue-342 -- Add ebutts:multiRowAlign and
   ebutts:linePadding attributes to the IMSC Text Profile -- open

   <trackbot>
   [23]http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/342


     [23] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/342


   pal: These extensions are intended to allow timed text
   presentation of a style that's consistent with European
   practice, and perhaps elsewhere in the world.
   ... This does require adding a feature to the IMSC layout
   engine, but not to the HRM. It looks like a processor can
   ignore them and still yield reasonable results. My suggestion
   is to add those features,
   ... even as a SHALL, and move forward with that. The only
   caveat is these features may appear in TTML2.

   nigel: This is analogous to the IMSC 1 situation with
   forcedDisplay, in that TTML2 may do it differently and IMSC 2
   would adopt the TTML2 way.

   Issue-342: Make sure to include a note along the lines of the
   forcedDisplay note that TTML2 and IMSC 2 may do it differently.

   <trackbot> Notes added to Issue-342 Add ebutts:multiRowAlign
   and ebutts:linePadding attributes to the IMSC Text Profile.

   issue-339?

   <trackbot> issue-339 -- Allow the use of #overflow -- open

   <trackbot>
   [24]http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/339


     [24] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/339


   pal: F2F discussion may be needed here. IMSC 1 forbids
   tts:overflow="visible" because that mutes the specified extent
   of the region.
   ... This has profound implications for the HRM and because from
   an authorial standpoint, to me and others, the author has no
   idea how big the region will eventually be.
   ... I'm also trying to understand what the use cases are for
   tts:overflow="visible" provides a benefit.

   nigel: There's a tension here between region size and font
   size, where rendered font sizes can not be known at authoring
   time.
   ... Overflow allows for some safety there.

   pal: That's what reference fonts are designed to address.

   courtney: What about when implementations allow users to
   override settings?

   pal: In that case the implementation would need to know how to
   expand the regions to compensate, if, say, the font size is
   doubled.
   ... I'm happy to add a note to the spec to explain this.

   nigel: At first a reflector response along those lines (i.e.
   about reference fonts) would be helpful.

   pal: Notwithstanding CP28 I think this concludes all the
   outstanding notes on IMSC, so we have a realistic shot at
   moving along on our proposed timeline - thank you all.

   nigel: adjourns meeting - thanks all, and see you at 0900 at
   the EBU in Geneva!

Summary of Action Items

   [NEW] ACTION: frans Review resolution to Issue-340 and add
   review comments to issue [recorded in
   [25]http://www.w3.org/2014/09/11-tt-minutes.html#action01]
   [NEW] ACTION: frans Review resolution to Issue-343 and add
   review comments to issue [recorded in
   [26]http://www.w3.org/2014/09/11-tt-minutes.html#action02]

   [End of minutes]
     __________________________________________________________


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     __________________________________________________________

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