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Re: ISSUE-320 (Is normative SMPTE 2052 reference okay?): Is normative SMPTE 2052 reference okay? [TTML IMSC 1.0]

From: Nigel Megitt <nigel.megitt@bbc.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 23 May 2014 15:53:01 +0000
To: Michael Dolan <mdolan@newtbt.com>, "'Timed Text Working Group'" <public-tt@w3.org>
Message-ID: <CFA52A89.1E443%nigel.megitt@bbc.co.uk>
Mike,

You seem to be generalising from a specific point! I do not question the
pedigree of SMPTE's patent policy, merely note that the license status of
SMPTE ST 2502-1 is clearly stated as being inconclusive within that
particular document. And I make specific reference to the document
referenced by our document-in-draft.

As a point of fact EBU is a member of the WG with 2 representatives,
furthermore the TTWG has so far made no recommendations that normatively
reference an EBU document. If hypothetically EBU or any other member were
to make a contribution to the WG the licensing terms for this are clear
and pre-agreed.

Since SMPTE is not a member of, and has not made a contribution to, the WG
for IMSC it does not fall under those terms. It is a reasonable action to
check that we are taking the correct steps in making the normative
reference that is the subject of this issue, for this particular
deliverable. I can only assume that for all other recommendations that
make normative reference to an external document a similar check was made
- but it is not our concern here.

I very much welcome SMPTE's continuing active interest, however this does
not remove our need to take reasonable care.

You will note that one of the options I listed was indeed to communicate
with SMPTE regarding the issues I've identified.

Kind regards,

Nigel



On 23/05/2014 16:28, "Michael Dolan" <mdolan@newtbt.com> wrote:

>Mr. TTWG Chair-
>
>I must say that I am surprised that you singularly question the pedigree
>of SMPTE's patent policy and the license status of SMPTE ST 2502-1.
>Following this logic, then we better immediately initiate review of: 1)
>all external normative references in TTML1, TTML2 and IMSC which
>includes: ISO, IEC, ITU, Unicode, US Government, and others); and 2) all
>W3C references to SMPTE standards, which includes SMIL, and of course
>TTML1 and TTML2.
>
>Right, "SMPTE" is not a member of this WG any more than "EBU" or any
>other SDO is. However, had you asked or taken note of earlier
>communications between the organizations, you will find that SMPTE has
>for a long time a formal liaison with W3C [1] and taken an active
>interest in the work of this WG.
>
>If you feel 2052-1 is lacking in technical precision, SMPTE welcomes your
>input.
>
>Regards,
>
>       Mike
>       W3C Liaison to SMPTE
>
>[1] http://www.w3.org/2001/11/StdLiaison
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Timed Text Working Group Issue Tracker
>[mailto:sysbot+tracker@w3.org]
>Sent: Friday, May 23, 2014 7:45 AM
>To: public-tt@w3.org
>Subject: ISSUE-320 (Is normative SMPTE 2052 reference okay?): Is
>normative SMPTE 2052 reference okay? [TTML IMSC 1.0]
>
>ISSUE-320 (Is normative SMPTE 2052 reference okay?): Is normative SMPTE
>2052 reference okay? [TTML IMSC 1.0]
>
>http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/320
>
>Raised by: Nigel Megitt
>On product: TTML IMSC 1.0
>
>Amongst other sections, 4.2, 6.2.1 and Appendices B.5 and C.1 make
>normative reference to SMPTE-2052-1 [1], however that document makes
>clear that it is possible that some parts of it may be subject to patent
>rights. Can we normatively reference something when we can't establish
>the licensing status of it? Note that SMPTE are not current members of
>this WG.
>
>The W3C Patent Policy FAQ says something about this, in question 32 [2] -
>to quote:
>
>> "32. Can a W3C Recommendation normatively refer to technology developed
>>outside W3C with licensing terms that differ from those of the W3C
>>Patent Policy?
>>
>> Yes. W3C Recommendations may include normative references to standards
>>or technologies developed outside of W3C. However, the Working Group
>>should keep in mind the importance of royalty-free implementations of
>>Web standards. In the event it becomes clear that the licensing status
>>of those externally-developed technologies could become a barrier to
>>implementation of the technology according to the W3C Royalty-Free (RF)
>>Licensing Requirements, W3C may choose not to publish the document or
>>may launch a PAG."
>
>On this basis we (this WG) should keep in mind the implications and
>consider a change.
>
>One question I would ask is: is the referenced feature well defined? I
>can't see where in the SMPTE-TT document the syntax is defined that is
>used to describe the <image> element, so I'm not 100% clear what it
>means, especially because what looks like the imageType attribute is
>shown without an '=' that is present elsewhere on similar attributes
>(presumably a typo). The XSD schema is marked explicitly as
>non-normative.
>
>On that basis SMPTE 2052-1 appears to make no normative statement
>defining the contents and structure of the element on which the feature
>is based, which isn't ideal (even if a common-sense reading is probably
>correct). It's even less clear how the backgroundImage attribute is
>defined because it seems permitted to include no value, or if a value is
>specified it's listed as the undefined 'uri-specification' but seems to
>be a reference to an xml:id defined in an <image> element.
>
>I'm concerned that we are making a normative reference from IMSC to an
>external document that is not specified to the level of precision that
>we'd seek in a W3C recommendation.
>
>I'd be open to one of a variety of remediations here, including in no
>order of preference:
>* removal of the image profile altogether;
>* redefinition in IMSC of the image element and backgroundImage attribute
>in the relevant ttml namespace;
>* requesting that SMPTE edits 2052-1 to make the definitions clearer and
>(optionally and preferably) to clarify the licensing status so that we
>can continue to reference it;
>* other options I haven't thought of.
>
>
>Incidentally, IMSC 1 B.1 suggests that all the subsequent feature
>extension designations are in the TTML extension namespace but this is
>not true for B.5 which is in the SMPTE-TT namespace (which by the way
>happens to return a "Not Found" response page, for both the one in the
>text in the 2052-1 document 5.8 or the other different one in Table 11).
>
>
>[1] https://www.smpte.org/sites/default/files/st2052-1-2010.pdf
>[2] http://www.w3.org/2003/12/22-pp-faq.html#outside-normative-ref
>
>
>
>



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Received on Friday, 23 May 2014 15:53:34 UTC

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