Re: TalentSignal: How to express that something isn't required

hi folks

On Fri, 31 Jul 2020 at 15:42, Stuart Sutton <stuartasutton@gmail.com> wrote:

> I am not sure what a property such as "notRequired" actually means. Does
> it mean that whatever characteristic stated as "notRequired" is a
> characteristic that won't be considered in assessing candidates? Does it
> mean that while "notRequired", candidates that have acquired the
> characteristic will have a leg up? Or does this even need to consider these
> nuances of how having and not having are considered in hiring? As Merrilea
> points out, JDX covers notions of required/prefered/alternative...so could
> we assume that required/not required in a posting are simply alternatives?
> But alternatives usually reflect things like "bachelor degree or 5 years of
> experience".
>

This is something we are actively interested in at Google. I have just
posted a proposal to Schema.org that we do something in this area.

https://github.com/schemaorg/schemaorg/issues/2681

My preference would be to do something simple but imperfect quickly,
reflecting the covid-19 unemployment situation, and refine the design over
time to be more nuanced.

To Stuart's points, the underlying impulse is to allow postings to indicate
that the lack of a degree isn't a deal-breaker. Maybe in some settings
there could be some constraints formally ensuring it wasn't a matter
considered during assessment - but the markup wouldn't imply that. Maybe
those with a degree would have a leg up in some senses, and those without
might have their own leg up depending on what they'd done instead of a
degree. But the markup wouldn't say anything definite on that either. I'd
suggest it means something like "applications from applicants without a
degree are welcomed", and not a lot more.

The main technical point for why we might need this in Schema.org more
urgently than elsewhere, is that the open nature of schema markup means
that we cannot take ommisions to mean specific things: not saying that a
degree is required, is just that. It is different from saying that a degree
isn't required. In some systems such as Merrilea's example (" If the
employer chooses not to require proof, then it is pretty much the same as
saying this competency is not important enough for me to make it mandatory
or to check to see whether you actually have it or not") things are more
constrained both technically and socially, and the absence of information
can have more implicit meaning than in Schema.org markup.

I'd welcome continued discussion on the schema designs sketched in the
github issue here or over on Github

Thanks for your perspectives,

Dan


> On Fri, Jul 31, 2020 at 5:24 AM Merrilea Mayo <merrileamayo@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> I have seen two ways of handling this, though neither is ideal.
>>
>> In JDX, they ended up with minimum requirements, requirements, preferred
>> requirements, and alternative requirements. Optional would end up as
>> "preferred" with no minimum, I think.
>>
>> We are developing our own system for dealing with this and trying to map
>> it to the JDX system.  In our system, the primary job requirements are
>> expressed as competencies, then the employer can additionally ask the
>> candidate to supply 3rd party proof of each competency in the form of a
>> degree, course completion, certification, affidavit from a prior employer,
>> work sample, etc (long list, and the employer decides  which he is willing
>> to accept).    If the employer chooses not to require proof, then it is
>> pretty much the same as saying this competency is not important enough for
>> me to make it mandatory or to check to see whether you actually have it or
>> not.  In other words, optional.  For optional competencies, candidates can
>> then either upload proof (if they happen to have it and want to make a good
>> impression) or self-assert (the equivalent of providing a resume), but for
>> an optional competency the application is allowed to proceed without proof
>> of this item being supplied by the applicant.
>>
>> Because we are using O'Net as the competency framework, there are a
>> finite number of competencies, particularly when one is working at the
>> level of a single occupation.  The user can store proof of each competency
>> as it is acquired and simply auto-forward them to employers as needed for
>> each job application.
>>
>> Merrilea
>>
>>
>> On 7/31/2020 7:17 AM, Phil Barker wrote:
>>
>> Hello all, I've been asked a question that relates to talent signaling,
>> specifically schema.org/JobPosting, which is "how would you indicate
>> that qualification/credential is not required?"
>>
>> The use case is for focusing a service on opportunities for people with
>> limited educational qualifications (e.g. no degree required) but I think it
>> also generalizes to things like "no driving licence required" and I guess
>> "no previous experience required".
>>
>> We don't think there is currently any way in schema.org/JobPosting to
>> show this information, and it's kind of problematic to either have
>> properties for the endless list of what's not required or to assume that
>> just because a requirement isn't listed in the structured data then it
>> doesn't exist.
>>
>> I would welcome any insights on how this is handled in other HR data
>> standards and systems.
>>
>> All the best, Phil
>> --
>>
>> Phil Barker <http://people.pjjk.net/phil>. http://people.pjjk.net/phil
>> CETIS LLP <https://www.cetis.org.uk>: a cooperative consultancy for
>> innovation in education technology.
>> PJJK Limited <https://www.pjjk.co.uk>: technology to enhance learning;
>> information systems for education.
>>
>> CETIS is a co-operative limited liability partnership, registered in
>> England number OC399090
>> PJJK Limited is registered in Scotland as a private limited company,
>> number SC569282.
>>
>> --
>>
>> Merrilea J. Mayo, Ph.D.
>> Mayo Enterprises, LLC
>> 12101 Sheets Farm Rd.
>> North Potomac, MD 20878
>>
>> merrileamayo@gmail.com
>> https://merrileamayo.com/
>> 240-304-0439 (cell)
>> 301-977-2599 (landline)
>>
>