- From: Merrilea Mayo <merrileamayo@gmail.com>
- Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2019 11:33:30 -0400
- To: public-talent-signal@w3.org
- Message-ID: <d011b8cf-d872-c6f8-5e7a-746adf679465@gmail.com>
Thanks for the clarification, Stuart. I knew I'd remembered only half
the information!
Merrilea
On 6/21/2019 10:19 AM, Stuart Sutton wrote:
> Hi, Merrilea, just a couple of brief notes on your CredentialEngine
> comments. You are correct that in Credential engine (i.e., in CTDL),
> the offeror (as well as other related agents) of a credential are
> separate entities from the credential offered. That mirror's
> schema.org <http://schema.org> practice. The CTDL does have an array
> of properties that relate a particular credential to an organization
> including accreditedBy, approvedBy, offeredBy, ownedBy, recognizedBy
> renewedBy and revokedBy.
>
> Bottom line, you are absolutely correct that the relationship between
> offeror (etc) and credential is really important regardless of the
> downstream motive of those wanting to have the information.
>
> Stuart
>
> On Fri, Jun 21, 2019 at 7:04 AM Phil Barker <phil.barker@pjjk.co.uk
> <mailto:phil.barker@pjjk.co.uk>> wrote:
>
> Interesting thoughts Merrilea, thank you.
>
> I think that you're right to say that no employer will publicise
> that they won't accept credentials from Institution X; and anyway,
> I can't think of a way of expressing that information in
> schema.org <http://schema.org>. So let's put that to one side.
>
> EducationalOccupationalCredential has a property provider
> <https://schema.org/provider> which might be useful for saying
> things about credentials from which institutions are acceptable.
> So you could say the provider must be memberOf the Ivy League, or
> say that only one or two institutions are acceptable. This might
> work where there is some sort of closed shop or monopoly for
> providing the credential, but I am not convinced that this really
> scales to many scenarios. (Tell me if I am wrong and I will make
> an example.)
>
> What I do think would work better is to show is that the
> credential should be recognised by
> <https://schema.org/recognizedBy> some accrediting organization:
>
> {
> "@context": "http://schema.org/" <http://schema.org/>,
> "@type": "JobPosting",
> "title": "Systems Research Engineer",
> "qualifications": {
> "@type": "EducationalOccupationalCredential",
> "credentialCategory": "Bachelor of Science",
> "about": "Computer Science",
> "name": "Bachelor of Science in Computer Science",
> "recognizedBy": {
> "@type": "Organization",
> "name": "British Computer Society",
> "url": https://www.bcs.org/
> }
> }
>
> (using British Computer Society because I am not sure whether ACM
> / IEEE or who provides similar accreditation in the US or
> elsewhere; happy to show alternatives)
>
> Phil
>
> On 21/06/2019 13:58, Merrilea Mayo wrote:
>>
>> This is pretty good. The TL;DR version of my longer response
>> below: It would be nice to have a data element associated with a
>> credential that described an acceptable (to the employer)
>> issuer/owner/source of the credential.
>>
>> Why?
>>
>> I would like to fix one reason that credential listings as they
>> exist today are so poor at signaling requirements to
>> candidates. That is, that all sources of a given credential are
>> not equally satisfactory to employers. If I get a Bachelor of
>> Science from a no-name university, my resume will never be
>> considered even though technically I have the required
>> credential. If I get a B.S. from MIT, my resume floats to the
>> top. This is particularly a problem in Computer Science, where,
>> In the US, 70,000 African-Americans currently remain employed
>> out-of-field (most in extremely menial jobs, like short-haul
>> delivery drivers and bellhops - see my LinkedIn posting on US
>> Census data showing this) because they have the BS degree in
>> Computer Science, but not from anywhere an employer is interested
>> in, or recruiting from. Meanwhile, employers are complaining
>> that minority talent simply doesn't exist. The signal that
>> employers "need minority talent" is getting out, but in a form
>> that doesn't allow individuals to respond correctly. The result
>> is a colossal waste of many individuals' time, and a profound
>> accumulation of unnecessary debt, to pursue degrees no one is
>> interested in.
>>
>> Now, the real problem is of course that no employer really wants
>> to admit they won't hire you if your degree is from Institution
>> X. But there is also no way in current data schema to easily
>> signal a preferred credential issuer/owner/source even if
>> employers *were* so inclined. As a less incendiary example,
>> there are at least 3 different organizations handing out Six
>> Sigma Black Belt certifications. Which one(s) is the employer
>> willing to accept? I think in Credential Engine, the credential
>> owner ended up being stored in records completely separate from
>> the other data regarding a credential, which also made it
>> difficult, when working with their APIs, to extract listings of
>> credentials that included the information on who was issuing
>> them. I can't be 100% certain of that last claim, since I'm not
>> a programmer, but I think that's what I heard from ours, when
>> they attempted it.
>>
>> So...long story short: It would be nice to have a data element
>> associated with a credential that described an acceptable
>> issuer/owner/source of the credential. It could be a specific
>> organization, a class of organizations (e.g., "Ivy League
>> Universities" or "Accredited higher education institutions"), or
>> a list containing several of the above ("Embry-Riddle
>> University," "Pima Community College"). At least that way, if
>> employers ever did get explicit about signaling acceptable
>> credentials, they'd have a mechanism for doing so. I will say
>> that if employers ever specified their preferred credential
>> providers, it would dramatically shake up higher education.
>> Especially if such information were available in structured form,
>> it could easily be collated for national-level reports on
>> supply/demand, which typically utilize real-time labor market
>> information (job postings) as their data source. Particularly if
>> employers were willing to identify subsets of institutions less
>> than 50 in number (for example, something smaller than just
>> "accredited higher education institution"), Higher education
>> would then get an extremely strong signal about what was, and was
>> not, considered an "employable" educational pathway.
>>
>> Merrilea
>>
>> On 6/21/2019 7:27 AM, Phil Barker wrote:tthe qualifications
>> property of a JobPosting.
>>>
>>> It is based on an existing example in schema of anOccupation
>>> <https://schema.org/Occupation> requiring a PhD level qualification.
>>>
>>> {
>>> "@context": "http://schema.org/" <http://schema.org/>,
>>> "@type": "JobPosting",
>>> "title": "Systems Research Engineer",
>>> "qualifications": {
>>> "@type": "EducationalOccupationalCredential",
>>> "credentialCategory": "Bachelor of Science",
>>> "about": "Computer Science",
>>> "name": "Bachelor of Science in Computer Science"
>>> }
>>> }
>>>
>>> There's a full description on the wiki at
>>> https://www.w3.org/community/talent-signal/wiki/Example_of_JobPosting_qualifications_as_EducationalOccupationalCredential
>>>
>>> Any comments?
>>>
>>> Phil
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Phil Barker <http://people.pjjk.net/phil>.
>>> http://people.pjjk.net/phil
>>> CETIS LLP <https://www.cetis.org.uk>: a cooperative consultancy
>>> for innovation in education technology.
>>> PJJK Limited <https://www.pjjk.co.uk>: technology to enhance
>>> learning; information systems for education.
>>>
>>> CETIS is a co-operative limited liability partnership,
>>> registered in England number OC399090
>>> PJJK Limited is registered in Scotland as a private limited
>>> company, number SC569282.
>>>
>> --
>>
>> Merrilea J. Mayo, Ph.D.
>> Mayo Enterprises, LLC
>> 12101 Sheets Farm Rd.
>> North Potomac, MD 20878
>>
>> merrileamayo@gmail.com <mailto:merrileamayo@gmail.com>
>> https://merrileamayo.com/
>> 240-304-0439 (cell)
>> 301-977-2599 (landline)
>>
> --
>
> Phil Barker <http://people.pjjk.net/phil>. http://people.pjjk.net/phil
> CETIS LLP <https://www.cetis.org.uk>: a cooperative consultancy
> for innovation in education technology.
> PJJK Limited <https://www.pjjk.co.uk>: technology to enhance
> learning; information systems for education.
>
> CETIS is a co-operative limited liability partnership, registered
> in England number OC399090
> PJJK Limited is registered in Scotland as a private limited
> company, number SC569282.
>
--
Merrilea J. Mayo, Ph.D.
Mayo Enterprises, LLC
12101 Sheets Farm Rd.
North Potomac, MD 20878
merrileamayo@gmail.com
https://merrileamayo.com/ < >
240-304-0439 (cell)
301-977-2599 (landline)
Received on Friday, 21 June 2019 15:33:53 UTC