Re: October 6th Meeting and Calls for WG Scope Contributions [via Social Web Incubator Community Group]

Hi Melvin,
I appreciate that you're vigilant about tool choice, inclusion, decision
process, etc.

I think in this particular case (using the wiki for WG charter
brainstorming), it's not a big deal / not worth a big discussion.
If I remember correctly, at the end of the previous call, somebody
suggested using the SocialCG wiki for brainstorming, and it sounded
reasonable. (Personally, I'm not a big fan of the wiki, but it sounded like
a reasonable start. If people prefer strongly, maybe we should move the
charter brainstorms to github).

On Mon, Oct 9, 2023 at 5:51 AM Melvin Carvalho <melvincarvalho@gmail.com>
wrote:

>
>
> ne 8. 10. 2023 v 21:13 odesílatel James <jamesg@jamesg.blog> napsal:
>
>> The wiki lists all specs from the previous WG. If I missed any, please
>> let me know! Note that most specs do not presently have any scope; they
>> exist as a placeholder in case anyone has ideas.
>>
>> The page is for everyone to add to: if you have ideas on scope you would
>> like to see included, please add it to the wiki page or otherwise document
>> them so that the rest of the CG can see your ideas.
>>
>
> I noticed the decision was made privately and unilaterally by the chairs,
> which seems somewhat misaligned with W3C's usual transparency in
> decision-making.
>
> Additionally, this raises mild apprehensions regarding the potential for
> future decisions to be determined in a similar manner, particularly
> considering past instances such as the multi-year disablement of this
> mailing list. In my view, substantial workflow changes should engage the
> wider member base rather than being determined by a select few.
>
> Utilizing more open forums like SocialHub and the FEP process for AP
> related items, might align more closely with our shared commitment to
> transparent and inclusive decision-making in the future.
>
>
>>
>> Thanks,
>> James
>>
>> ------- Original Message -------
>> On Sunday, October 8th, 2023 at 00:42, Melvin Carvalho <
>> melvincarvalho@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> so 7. 10. 2023 v 16:02 odesílatel James <jamesg@jamesg.blog> napsal:
>>
>>> As part of our role in facilitating consensus, it is important that we
>>> are moving discussions forward productively. Significant discussion has
>>> gone on with regard to a prospective WG charter in the mailing list and in
>>> meetings but we were lacking a single place where specific points people
>>> wanted to action on were aggregated. Many members' support of a WG has been
>>> contingent upon conditions being met, a one being a clear, defined scope.
>>>
>>> The end goal of the CG in advising on any prospective WG charter is a
>>> scope that codified the views of the community and that has received
>>> consensus. A wiki helps us get closer -- having one collaborative document
>>> everyone can refine -- while ensuring participation is open to all members.
>>> I provided guidance on how to access the wiki in the initial email
>>> announcing the page, although should that not be sufficient I am happy to
>>> prepare a primer.
>>>
>>> If there are objections from the community, we can move to another
>>> platform. Working practices can and should change should a mode of
>>> documentation hinder the majority of the group's ability to do productive
>>> work.
>>>
>>
>> Thanks James. A bit of transparency regarding decisions would be helpful.
>> You said "The idea was privately raised by a CG member", but you didnt say
>> which member.
>>
>>
>> Regarding the wiki, there seems to be quite a few indieweb specs in
>> there. I was wondering if you could give a quick update on the current
>> state of indieweb, in particularly 2 questions I have:
>>
>> - What is the approximate DAU of the indieweb itself
>> - Roughly how many devs are active
>>
>> I appreciate that there is a range of specs that go over and beyond
>> indieweb, but it would be good to get a rough ball park of where the
>> movement is compared with 6 years ago (by the way I'm a member, and run
>> code on my own homepage too :))
>>
>>>
>>> James
>>>
>>> ------- Original Message -------
>>> On Saturday, October 7th, 2023 at 11:50, Melvin Carvalho <
>>> melvincarvalho@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> so 7. 10. 2023 v 11:29 odesílatel James <jamesg@jamesg.blog> napsal:
>>>
>>>> Thank you for your question!
>>>>
>>>> "The Chairs" represents all Chairs. This distinction is important
>>>> because it clearly represents the differentiation between Chairs' personal
>>>> perspectives and a notice intended for the group that represents the result
>>>> of discussion among Chairs.
>>>>
>>>> The idea was privately raised by a CG member and, as a result, was
>>>> given due consideration. We -- Dmitri, Nightpool, and I -- decided to use
>>>> the wiki as a forum for all CG members to share their thoughts on scope.
>>>> Agreeing on specific language is easier in a document where everyone can
>>>> contribute and collaborate versus a mailing list where it can be easy to
>>>> miss points. Our primary concern is ensuring that thoughts on a new Charter
>>>> are easy for everyone to navigate.
>>>>
>>> Thank you for sharing the process and intentions behind the recent
>>> actions. A few points could use a bit more clarification for the broader
>>> understanding of the group:
>>>
>>>    1.
>>>
>>>    *Identification*: Can you share which CG member initiated the idea
>>>    in the private discussion?
>>>    2.
>>>
>>>    *Decision-Making Process*: The phrase "We decided" raises some
>>>    concerns as the role of the chairs is traditionally to facilitate group
>>>    consensus, not to make autonomous decisions. Can you shed some light on how
>>>    this decision was reached among the Chairs without group consensus?
>>>    3.
>>>
>>>    *Platform Choice*: The choice of the wiki for drafting the WG, while
>>>    collaborative, seems a bit outside of our usual workflow. Could you share
>>>    the reasoning behind this choice of platform?
>>>
>>> Thank you for addressing these points.
>>>
>>>>
>>>> The wiki has been used across the W3C, including by the former Working
>>>> Group. The Chairs contacted the W3C team to allow wiki access to all CG
>>>> members to contribute. Invitations to contribute to the wiki page were
>>>> noted in an email to the mailing list (the one to which you are responding)
>>>> and in last week's meeting.
>>>>
>>>> Let me know if you have any other questions!
>>>>
>>>> James
>>>>
>>>> ------- Original Message -------
>>>> On Saturday, October 7th, 2023 at 03:13, Melvin Carvalho <
>>>> melvincarvalho@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> pá 29. 9. 2023 v 20:36 odesílatel W3C Community Development Team <
>>>> team-community-process@w3.org> napsal:
>>>>
>>>>> Hello everyone,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Thank you to everyone who participated in the discussions pertaining
>>>>> to a prospective Working Group (WG). We have two announcements:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Our next community meeting, and;
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> An invitation to collaborate on scope for a prospective WG on the W3C
>>>>> wiki.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> October 6th Meeting
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> We are scheduling a Community Group meeting for Friday, October 6th.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The meeting will be at 11am ET / 4pm UK / 8am PT, and hosted at
>>>>> https://meet.jit.si/social-web-cg.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The rough agenda for the meeting is as follows:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Introductions (optional) and community announcements.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> IP Protection Note Reminder: (a) Anyone can participate in these
>>>>> calls. However, all substantive contributors to any CG Work Items must be
>>>>> members of the CG with full IPR agreements signed, and (b); To contribute
>>>>> to Work Items: ensure you have a W3 account, and sign the W3C Community
>>>>> Contributor License Agreement (CLA).
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> A discussion on scope for a prospective WG, following on from our
>>>>> previous CG meeting, discussions on the mailing list, and contributions to
>>>>> the wiki (see below for more information).
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Discussion to start a data portability task force that would focus on
>>>>> social web data portability (particularly with regard to ActivityPub), and
>>>>> the scope thereof.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Discussion on a formal decision making process for the group,
>>>>> following on from community discussion.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Any other business.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Call to Contribute to Prospective WG Scope
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The Chairs have created a new page on the W3C wiki to discuss the
>>>>> scope of a prospective WG:
>>>>> https://www.w3.org/wiki/SocialCG/WG_Charter_Discussion.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> "The chairs have ... "
>>>>
>>>> Which chairs? Where was the meeting? Who proposed it? Why was this path
>>>> taken when the wiki is not a tool in use for most of the group?
>>>>
>>>> Where is the transparency here?
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The wiki page is open to all CG members. You can log in with the same
>>>>> username and password you use for your W3C account. Please let the Chairs
>>>>> know via a private email if login doesn't work so we can assist you
>>>>> directly.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> WGs have the ability to create technical documents for consideration
>>>>> on the W3C Standards Track and to amend existing W3C Recommendations. The
>>>>> Chairs have created a "Deliverables" section in which we invite you to list
>>>>> any deliverables that you think are appropriate to include in a WG.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> If you have further notes or comments about the WG Charter discussion,
>>>>> please leave them on the page so that we can aggregate as much information
>>>>> as possible in one place.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The Chairs
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ----------
>>>>>
>>>>> This post sent on Social Web Incubator Community Group
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 'October 6th Meeting and Calls for WG Scope Contributions'
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.w3.org/community/socialcg/2023/09/29/october-6th-meeting-and-calls-for-wg-scope-contributions/
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Learn more about the Social Web Incubator Community Group:
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.w3.org/community/socialcg
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>