Re: On the messaging issues (was also the RDF/XML discussion on the call)

Paul,

that looks like a very useful and interesting experience. I am looking
forward hearing about this!

Ivan

Paul Walsh, Segala wrote:
> All looks good.
> 
> Ok, I have Sam Sethi coming over to Dublin tomorrow. Sam is author of
> TechCrunch UK/Ireland (ex director of Microsoft, product manager of
> Netscape...). He is one of the Microformats evangelists and is hugely
> impressed by the power of Content Labelling to help enable trust on the Web
> by highlighting Web sites in search results if they follow a best practice,
> standard or code of conduct. That is, the stuff that Segala is working on. 
> 
> I'm talking to him about getting Microformats and the SW talking... not sure
> what will come of it, but hey, if you don't try :)
> 
> Cheers
> Paul
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ivan Herman [mailto:ivan@w3.org] 
> Sent: 05 December 2006 10:49
> To: Paul Walsh, Segala
> Cc: 'Kingsley Idehen'; public-sweo-ig@w3.org
> Subject: Re: On the messaging issues (was also the RDF/XML discussion on the
> call)
> 
> Paul,
> 
> yes, the microformat community has gone its own way, and we are not very
> successful (yet?) in getting closer to them. It is difficult to say why,
> here are some of *my* feelings. It may be characteristic for *some* of
> the problems we have.
> 
> - the RDF/XML issue did play a role. I do not want to repeat the issues,
> we all know them. Note, however, that even a turtle-like formalism would
> create problems: the microformat community is very much against
> namespaces, for example, which is also used in Turtle:-( [They are also
> vehemently against XML sometimes, but that is a different ballgame...]
> 
> - I think the image of the SW is that it is too complex and that is why
> they ignored it. In my view, one of main reasons for the complication is
> that there is no clear separation for a number of people among the
> different 'layers' of the Semantic Web: RDF as a basic model, RDF
> Schemas, the various levels of OWL. The impression many people have is
> that one *must* develop complex ontologies, use DL reasoners, etc, etc,
> to be on the Semantic Web. Somehow the fact that one can be a prefectly
> decent Semantic Web citizen by using RDF only goes unnoticed. This may
> be a way bigger problem than the RDF/XML issue (but, again, the survey
> should tell us more about this).
> 
> You refer to simplicity below: we do have to emphasize that, at the
> basics, we are *not* talking of something complicated here!
> 
> Note also that things are changing. The GRDDL work may have a major
> impact on this!
> 
> About your question on what is the Semantic Web: of course, it is a bit
> like that elephant in the tale. Extending on the FAQ[1] I would say:
> "The Semantic Web is an extension of the current Web better enabling
> computers and people to work in cooperation." This is very general, but
> quite true...
> 
> I.
> 
> 
> [1] http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/SW-FAQ#What1
> 
> 
> 
> Paul Walsh, Segala wrote:
> 
>>Microformats [1] - "designed for humans first and machines second". 
>>
>>I wonder where they got the idea for the above. Perhaps they wish to
>>purposely differentiate themselves from the SW knowing that it isn't
>>understood, let alone adopted. 
>>
>>More quotes from the Microformats people:
>>
>>"highly correlated with semantic XHTML, AKA the real world semantics, AKA
>>lowercase semantic web, AKA lossless XHTML" and 
>>
>>"a set of simple open data format standards that many are actively
>>developing and implementing for more/better structured blogging and web
>>microcontent publishing in"
>>
>>[...]
>>
>>This is a standard/method(?) that is explained very well in my opinion and
>>we should learn from its success. I hear from a reliable source that there
>>are over 100 million implementations of hCard. Real users include
> 
> LinkedIn! 
> 
>>Microformats was setup as a result of the SW moving too slowly (or not at
>>all in some people's opinions). Microformats is hugely successful because
>>there are real benefits to realise immediately. 
>>
>>Personally I'm an evangelist for the SW, but we need a brand new approach,
>>or the SW will do more of the same and end up walking on ice while others
>>come up with short term solutions to real problems that are being faced
>>today (not tomorrow).
>>
>>So, can someone tell me in simple language, what they think the Semantic
> 
> Web
> 
>>is? We really need to start with the basics. To me and Segala, it's adding
>>metadata about a resource to enable more trust on the Web. 
>>
>>Clearly my wording is limiting, but I'm hoping it will stimulate others to
>>come up with more user friendly explanations. I purposely use the term
>>Metadata because everyone *I* talk to understand it and believe it is
>>useful. Furthermore, I purposely mention 'trust' because it's an example
> 
> of
> 
>>an issue the Web/people face today. 
>>
>>We're s_t_i_l_l getting bogged down by techie stuff which simply won't
>>interest my particular group of companies/people - the digital industry in
>>the UK and soon, the usability professionals in Ireland. That is, people
> 
> who
> 
>>design and build Web sites and people who are learning how to design and
>>build Web sites. And soon, people who help other people to make Web sites
>>more user friendly and accessible to more people on more devices. Ok, so I
>>can't influence that many people, but at least my audience is a good cross
>>section of potential customers.
>>
>>I've heard a number of people reference their interest/work in 'social Web
>>sites'. Is anyone on the list talking to the social Web site
>>owners/managers?
>>
>>I hope my note doesn't come across as negative, I'm looking to play
> 
> devil's
> 
>>advocate with the techies (including my own staff) :-)
>>
>>[1] http://microformats.org/about/
>>
>>Kind regards,
>>Paul 
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: public-sweo-ig-request@w3.org [mailto:public-sweo-ig-request@w3.org]
>>On Behalf Of Kingsley Idehen
>>Sent: 04 December 2006 17:19
>>To: public-sweo-ig@w3.org
>>Cc: W3C SWEO IG
>>Subject: Re: On the messaging issues (was also the RDF/XML discussion on
> 
> the
> 
>>call)
>>
>>
>>Lee Feigenbaum wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Kingsley Idehen wrote on 12/04/2006 09:46:59 AM:
>>>
>>> 
>>>
>>>
>>>>Ivan/Lee: Is there an incongruence between the items I am listing above 
>>>>and the RDF/XML matter resolution as you see it?
>>>>   
>>>
>>>Hi Kingsley,
>>>
>>>I don't have a strong feeling on the layer cake. I've never used it when 
>>>teaching or pitching SW to someone outside the community (at least not 
>>>until the late stages of the game) and don't think that it (the visual 
>>>picture itself) is a major sales material of SW technologies. 
>>>
>>>I also don't think that dispeling RDF/XML myths need be a cornerstone of 
>>>SWEO messaging. I've rarely personally had someone express reservations to
>>
>>
>>>me about SW technologies because of RDF/XML, and while I understand that 
>>>in the past confusion between the interchange syntax and the data model 
>>>turned people off from the field, I do not (personally) see it as a major 
>>>inhibitor currently. But I also think that my personal experience is 
>>>largely worthless here: I think that we should wait and see what our 
>>>surveys tell us about the market's view of SW technologies, and craft our 
>>>messaging accordingly.
>>> 
>>
>>
>>Lee,
>>
>>Okay, cornerstone is a little heavy :-) 
>>
>>The Serialization Formats and Data Model disambiguation issue should be 
>>an essential part of the SWEO outreach messaging effort?
>>
>>Focal point being, that existing and future collateral should be 
>>cognizant of the tendency to inadvertently skew the RDF Data Model with 
>>an over emphasis on RDF/XML. In short, more N3/Turtle examples should 
>>accompany RDF/XML examples when assembling, or editing existing, 
>>introductory presentation material about the RDF Data Model etc..
>>
>>I really want to be crystal clear about the point I am trying to make 
>>about the messaging and the use of the Layer Cake to guide the 
>>construction of said messaging.
>>
>>
>>
>>>Lee
>>>
>>> 
>>
>>
>>
> 

-- 

Ivan Herman, W3C Semantic Web Activity Lead
URL: http://www.w3.org/People/Ivan/
PGP Key: http://www.cwi.nl/%7Eivan/AboutMe/pgpkey.html
FOAF: http://www.ivan-herman.net/foaf.rdf