- From: Ralph R. Swick <swick@w3.org>
- Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2008 12:41:23 -0400
- To: public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf@w3.org,public-swd-wg@w3.org
The minutes of today's RDFa telecon are now available [1].
[1] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/04-rdfa-minutes.html
A text snapshot follows.
----
RDF in XHTML Task Force
04 Sep 2008
[2]Agenda
[2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008Sep/0016.html
See also: [3]IRC log, previous [4]2008-08-28
[3] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/04-rdfa-irc
[4] http://www.w3.org/2008/08/28-rdfa-minutes.html
Attendees
Present
Manu Sporny, Mark Birbeck, Steven Pemberton, Shane McCarron,
Ralph Swick
Regrets
Ben Adida
Chair
Manu
Scribe
Manu, Ralph
Contents
* Topics
1. Action Items
2. Status of this Task Force
3. RDFa Parser Reserved Word Extension Mechanism
* Summary of Action Items
_____________________________________________________
Action Items
ACTION: [DONE] Ben add Noah's comments to the tracker [recorded in
[10]http://www.w3.org/2008/08/28-rdfa-minutes.html#action21]
[10] http://www.w3.org/2008/08/28-rdfa-minutes.html#action21
<Ralph> [11]issue 126 CR Comment: conformance for markup, a
processor, or both?
[11] http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/track/issues/126
<Ralph> [12]issue 127 CR Comment: [Noah Mendelsohn] Comments on RDFa
in XHTML: Syntax and processing
[12] http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/track/issues/127
ACTION: [CONTINUES] Ben ask SWD to approve publication of an updated
RDFa Primer [recorded in
[13]http://www.w3.org/2008/08/28-rdfa-minutes.html#action20]
[13] http://www.w3.org/2008/08/28-rdfa-minutes.html#action20
ACTION: [CONTINUES] Manu to upload test harness source code to W3C
CVS. [recorded in
[14]http://www.w3.org/2008/08/28-rdfa-minutes.html#action13]
[14] http://www.w3.org/2008/08/28-rdfa-minutes.html#action13
Manu:I need to talk with Ralph about this
[CONTINUES] ACTION: Manu to work with Microformats community to
address RDFa as unified markup for uFs. [recorded in
[15]http://www.w3.org/2008/08/28-rdfa-minutes.html#action23]
[15] http://www.w3.org/2008/08/28-rdfa-minutes.html#action23
<msporny>
[16]http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-discuss/2008-A
ugust/012432.html
[16] http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-discuss/2008-August/012432.html
Manu:I've started this discussion
... overall there's some push back; they'd rather I spend my time
working on methods to map microformats to RDFa rather than embedding
microformats in RDFa. They'd like a mapping mechanism defined that
each microformats parser could use but I have also been contacted
off-line by some saying a unified markup mechanism is better than a
mapping mechanism
ACTION: [CONTINUES] Manu to write summary for Semantic Web Use Cases
for Ivan. [recorded in
[17]http://www.w3.org/2008/08/28-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]
[17] http://www.w3.org/2008/08/28-rdfa-minutes.html#action12
ACTION: [DONE] Ralph update draft response to Noah [recorded in
[18]http://www.w3.org/2008/08/28-rdfa-minutes.html#action22]
[18] http://www.w3.org/2008/08/28-rdfa-minutes.html#action22
<Ralph> [19]Re: Comments on RDFa in XHTML: Syntax and processing
[Ralph 2008-08-28]
[19] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008Aug/0127.html
ACTION: [PENDING] Jeremy review and consider expanding the
description of TopBraid in the RDFa wiki [recorded in
[20]http://www.w3.org/2008/08/21-rdfa-minutes.html#action24]
[20] http://www.w3.org/2008/08/21-rdfa-minutes.html#action24
ACTION: [PENDING] Jeremy to demonstrate GRDDL with XHTML/RDFa once
the NS URI is set up. [recorded in
[21]http://www.w3.org/2008/07/24-rdfa-minutes.html#action07]
[21] http://www.w3.org/2008/07/24-rdfa-minutes.html#action07
ACTION: [PENDING] Manu talk with Jamie McCarthy about an AskSlashdot
piece [recorded in
[22]http://www.w3.org/2008/08/21-rdfa-minutes.html#action22]
[22] http://www.w3.org/2008/08/21-rdfa-minutes.html#action22
<Ralph> ACTION: [PENDING] Manu talk with Michael Smethurst at BBC
about RDFa [recorded in
[23]http://www.w3.org/2008/08/21-rdfa-minutes.html#action23]
[23] http://www.w3.org/2008/08/21-rdfa-minutes.html#action23
<Ralph> Manu: I have sent email to Michael, waiting to hear back
<Ralph> ACTION: [PENDING] Manu to create test cases for testing
relative URI resolution (href/CURIEs/etc). [recorded in
[24]http://www.w3.org/2008/07/31-rdfa-minutes.html#action22]
[24] http://www.w3.org/2008/07/31-rdfa-minutes.html#action22
<Ralph> Ralph: if we want to update the Implementation Report again
I think we should freeze the current one and start a new dated
version
<Ralph> ACTION: [PENDING] Manu write a pending test case for literal
property and no child nodes [recorded in
[25]http://www.w3.org/2008/08/21-rdfa-minutes.html#action02]
[25] http://www.w3.org/2008/08/21-rdfa-minutes.html#action02
ACTION: [PENDING] Manu write the perl code for Slashdot [recorded in
[26]http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action03]
[26] http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action03
ACTION: [PENDING] Mark create base wizard suitable for cloning
[recorded in
[27]http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]
[27] http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action12
ACTION: [PENDING] Mark write foaf examples for wiki [recorded in
[28]http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action07]
[28] http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action07
ACTION: [PENDING] Michael to create 'RDFa for uF users' on RDFa Wiki
[recorded in
[29]http://www.w3.org/2008/03/13-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]
[29] http://www.w3.org/2008/03/13-rdfa-minutes.html#action12
ACTION: [DONE] Ralph prepare to summarize new W3C test suite license
on 28 Aug [recorded in
[30]http://www.w3.org/2008/08/21-rdfa-minutes.html#action03]
[30] http://www.w3.org/2008/08/21-rdfa-minutes.html#action03
Shane:do we need to change our test suite?
Ralph:no
Ralph:then this action is done to my satisfaction
ACTION: [PENDING] Ralph think about RSS+RDFa [recorded in
[31]http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action11]
[31] http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action11
ACTION: [PENDING] Ralph to make
[32]http://www.w3.org/2008/07/rdfa-xslt happen recorded in
[33]http://www.w3.org/2008/07/24-rdfa-minutes.html#action05]
[32] http://www.w3.org/2008/07/rdfa-xslt
[33] http://www.w3.org/2008/07/24-rdfa-minutes.html#action05
ACTION: [DONE] Shane to start a wiki page for HTML4/5 [recorded in
[34]http://www.w3.org/2008/07/24-rdfa-minutes.html#action21]
[34] http://www.w3.org/2008/07/24-rdfa-minutes.html#action21
Shane:there are 3 of them but in particular [35]RDFainHTML4
[35] http://www.rdfa.info/wiki/RDFainHTML4
ACTION: [PENDING] Shane to update XHTML ns document to point to new
XSLT URI [recorded in
[36]http://www.w3.org/2008/07/24-rdfa-minutes.html#action06]
[36] http://www.w3.org/2008/07/24-rdfa-minutes.html#action06
ACTION: [DONE] Shane to write home page for SPREAD. [recorded in
[37]http://www.w3.org/2008/07/03-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]
[37] http://www.w3.org/2008/07/03-rdfa-minutes.html#action12
<ShaneM> [38]http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/rdfa
[38] http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/rdfa
Status of this Task Force
Ralph: The Task force is under both XHTML2 and SWD
... So, most of us are members of one or the other.
... This task force exists as long as the other two WGs exist.
... Both charters refer explicitly to XHTML.
... More directly, the deployment WG charter expires in December.
... We're probably not going to extend it.
... We have 4 major things on the deliverables list, RDFa was one of
them.
... They will probably want to focus on SKOS.
... That doesn't need to stop us from talking about outreach,
tutorials, wiki, etc.
... We would not find much support on SWD to extend RDFa work beyond
Dec.
<Ralph> [39]SWD WG charter
[39] http://www.w3.org/2006/07/swdwg-charter
Ralph: Hmm, point #5 in deliverables
<Ralph> "5. A W3C Technical Report (Working Group Note or
Recommendation) specifying how to incorporate RDF semantics into
HTML documents."
Ralph: Specifying how to incorporate RDF into HTML documents.
<Steven> XHTML2 charter says the same
<Steven> "RDFa, (including CURIEs) for incorporating rich (meta)data
semantics into HTML documents in a way that accommodates the use of
independently-developed ontologies in combination. RDFa will be
developed in cooperation with the Semantic Web Deployment WG"
<Steven> In those days HTML meant XHTML
Ralph: I think it's clear that we'd get pushback if we said XHTML2
charter applies to HTML4/5.
... For RDFa 1.1, I wouldn't export any support from deployment WG.
... For doing RDF in non-XHTML, I think we get different pushback.
... We should be proposing a new charter for what we would want to
do.
<Steven> We are chartered til end 2009
ShaneM: If we're talking about RDFa 1.1 and the XML space... I think
for RDFa + XML work we could continue under the auspices of the
XHTML2 WG for as long as we want
Steven: Happy to carry on with RDFa until end of XHTML2 charter -
end of next year.
Ralph: Steven, Mark, Shane - do you have a feeling on what you'd
like to do.
... Any reason to continue it under XHTML2 WG?
... or would you prefer to split it off?
Steven: Haven't thought about it.
Ralph: My bias is to make it a separate group.
... It'll be tough to get some folks to join XHTML2 WG.
... SWD has 4 separate tasks, with less interaction between each
task than we envisioned when we wrote the charter.
Steven: This is the reason XForms got created, it makes sense.
Ralph: How soon should we admit that we're starting work on RDFa
1.1?
<ShaneM> I don't mind if this activity became its own working
group....
Ralph: The con is fairly big to start on the next version too soon.
<markbirbeck> +1 To that
Ralph: Creates too many opportunities for FUD.
<markbirbeck> not sure what's going into 1.1
markbirbeck: If we have an ongoing, general charter, it might be
okay.
... To tell people that there is stuff to add to RDFa feels a bit
odd.
ShaneM: Agree - let it sit for a little while.
... I think we could extend it, it works fine.
Ralph:there is stuff we have deferred; syntax for lists
ShaneM: Works fine as is.
Ralph: There are certainly features of RDF, that we don't have
features for in RDFa.
... I think our message should be that "We recognize that there are
more features to add in RDFa, but we want to see how RDFa does in
the field". We need deployment experience to set the feature
priorities.
<ShaneM> I think we need to support HTML - I don't mind how we do
that.
<Steven> (It will always be an extra call :-) )
Mark:we could consider offering our experience to other groups, e.g.
ATOM
... we could add to our Wiki list of broader RDFa deployments; not
just XHTML
Mark: This is time consuming for some people in this group. Perhaps
we should focus on helping others get this right. It's not just the
processors, it has to do with XHTML+RDFa.
<ShaneM> evangelism is important too - we need to find a way to
continue our marketing efforts about RDFa.
<Steven> That sounds like an interest group
Mark: but also extending the notion of 'deployment'; maybe this does
require a Group
<ShaneM> +1 for an interest group
Steven: Interest Groups are usually much lighter-weight
... can write the charter to permit non-W3C Members to participate
... an IG is not involved with producing specifications
Manu: I want to be sure that we can speak with some W3C authority
when we talk with other communities
... the microformats community does respect other standards
... so it's important to be able to speak as a W3C standards group
<Zakim> ShaneM, you wanted to discuss how we spread the word that
this works in HTML
Shane: regardless of what we call the activity, it would be nice to
have a way to spread the word that there's a way to use this with
HTML; this is a 'today' problem
<ShaneM> To see my rant look at [40]http://halindrome.blogspot.com/
[40] http://halindrome.blogspot.com/
<ShaneM> While we are not obligated to continue meeting, we have
charter to do so through December 2008.
RDFa Parser Reserved Word Extension Mechanism
-> [41]RDFa Vocabularies
[41] http://rdfa.info/wiki/RDFa_Vocabularies
Manu: Shane, Mark, and I have been looking at this idea recently
... the idea is to be able to incorporate some microformat words
<ShaneM> total straw man proposal - nothing set in stone
Manu: we have an outline of a proposal
Mark: this hasn't just come up recently; it's been in the air for a
long time
... it's not just about microformats
... it just happens that certain tweaks would make things easier for
microformat folk
... but it's really more about extending CURIEs rather than
extending RDFa
... we have to be careful not to skew this
... the way it's being proposed at the moment it sounds as though
we're inviting lots of input from microformats community
... it could sound like we're proposing to incorporate microformats
and that's not what we're saying
... the idea is to provide a mechanism for allowing people to use
more unprefixed terms
... that's sort-of what microformats does
... the current idea is to provide a mechanism for others to define
unprefixed values
... let's present it that way
... and note that if you're a microformats person, this new
mechanism looks a lot like microformats
Manu: agree, but we're also trying to win over the HTML5 community
and the microformats community so let's not lose sight of that
... do we need @prefix or does the @xmlns work expand to do this?
<Zakim> ShaneM, you wanted to discuss how we present this idea
Shane: agree with Mark that there's not much new in this proposal
... my immediate goal was just to write a page that speaks to the
microformats people
... in a presentation that would resonate with that community
<ShaneM> @prefix or @xmlns is just a way of defining a "prefix"
property
Mark: I cited @@ an idea to flip CURIEs on their head
... it occurred to me that if we were to say there is a substitution
string X that _sometimes_ has a suffix
... there would no longer be 'unprefixed' values; there would just
be mappings to URIs
... everything becomes a mapping, including @rel='next'
... @rel='next' is currently a mapping because we have explicitly
said so
<Steven> rel="alternate"
<ShaneM> A CURIE is a TOKEN - all TOKENs have mappings. How those
are established is... magic?
<Steven> rel="alternate:stylesheet"
Mark: if we say 'x' and 'x:y' are both CURIEs then the mapping
mechanism handles both
... we'd still need to define how to declare mappings
... connects to an older idea of Shane's to use this as a mechanism
for defining vocabularies
<markbirbeck> rel="x"
Mark: consider CURIE as a substitution mechanism for substituting a
longer string for a shorter one
<markbirbeck> x:y
Mark: a secondary feature is that ':' just means concatenation
<Steven> rel="alternate" rel="alternate:stylesheet"
Mark: this would be compatible with RDFa as RDFa only uses the x:y
format
<markbirbeck> typeof="hcard"
Mark: and would make @typeof='hcard' not look like a hack
<Steven> I like it
Shane: I don't disagree but this looks like a mental model that's
not inconsistent with the current model
... in terms of the way CURIE is currently defined, these are
unprefixed values
Mark: the spec currently enumerates a list of unprefixed values and
says how to map them
Shane: only for RDFa+XHTML; not for any other has reserved words
Ralph: the hard thing is for strings without ':' to come from
several vocabularies
<markbirbeck> "A host language MAY interpret a reference value that
is not preceded by a prefix and a colon as being a member of a
host-language defined set of reserved values. Such reserved values
MUST translate into an IRI, just as with any other CURIE."
Shane: this _can_ be viewed as a preprocessing step
Mark: what's missing from the current CURIE language is
specification of a mechanism for getting new reserved values
... I'd put the preprocessing language in with a view that we'd
later have to resolve how to define new reserved words
<markbirbeck> xmlns:hcard="...."
Mark: my realization the other day is to think of x: as a mapping
<markbirbeck> typeof="hcard"
Mark: I think this simply works in our current processing model with
just slight changes in CURIE
... no pre-defined tokens; xmlns:hcard defines the token
Manu: so the mechanism we'd use to do this -- whether @xmlns or
@prefix -- would lift out each of the current reserved tokens?
Mark: we've discussed a separate mechanism for adding to the
predefined tokens
Mark: but if I do ...
<markbirbeck> typeof="hcard:"
... folk would understand this as nearly what microformats currently
does but with an ugly ':' on the end
... it works with the _current_ processing model
<markbirbeck> "x:" "y"
vs
<markbirbeck> "x" ":y"
Mark: so the mapping is defined even without a ':'
<Steven> that means we could preload foaf dc and so on
<Steven> as well
<markbirbeck> x a :b
<markbirbeck> xmlns:a="[42]http://...type"
[42] http://...type/
<markbirbeck> a:
<markbirbeck> a
<Steven> nice discussion
Mark: I suggest we discuss this in its own terms and not tie it so
closely to microformats
... looking at N3, essentially it's defining substitution tokens
... I'll write this up in mail
[adjourned]
Summary of Action Items
[PENDING] ACTION: Ben ask SWD to approve publication of an updated
RDFa Primer [recorded in
[43]http://www.w3.org/2008/08/28-rdfa-minutes.html#action20]
[PENDING] ACTION: Jeremy review and consider expanding the
description of TopBraid in the RDFa wiki [recorded in
[44]http://www.w3.org/2008/08/21-rdfa-minutes.html#action24]
[PENDING] ACTION: Jeremy to demonstrate GRDDL with XHTML/RDFa once
the NS URI is set up. [recorded in
[45]http://www.w3.org/2008/07/24-rdfa-minutes.html#action07]
[PENDING] ACTION: Manu talk with Jamie McCarthy about an AskSlashdot
piece [recorded in
[46]http://www.w3.org/2008/08/21-rdfa-minutes.html#action22]
[PENDING] ACTION: Manu talk with Michael Smethurst at BBC about RDFa
[recorded in
[47]http://www.w3.org/2008/08/21-rdfa-minutes.html#action23]
[PENDING] ACTION: Manu to create test cases for testing relative URI
resolution (href/CURIEs/etc). [recorded in
[48]http://www.w3.org/2008/07/31-rdfa-minutes.html#action22]
[PENDING] ACTION: Manu to upload test harness source code to W3C
CVS. [recorded in
[49]http://www.w3.org/2008/08/28-rdfa-minutes.html#action13]
[PENDING] ACTION: Manu to work with Microformats community to
address RDFa as unified markup for uFs. [recorded in
[50]http://www.w3.org/2008/08/28-rdfa-minutes.html#action23]
[PENDING] ACTION: Manu to write summary for Semantic Web Use Cases
for Ivan. [recorded in
[51]http://www.w3.org/2008/08/28-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]
[PENDING] ACTION: Manu write a pending test case for literal
property and no child nodes [recorded in
[52]http://www.w3.org/2008/08/21-rdfa-minutes.html#action02]
[PENDING] ACTION: Manu write the perl code for Slashdot [recorded in
[53]http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action03]
[PENDING] ACTION: Mark create base wizard suitable for cloning
[recorded in
[54]http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]
[PENDING] ACTION: Mark write foaf examples for wiki [recorded in
[55]http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action07]
[PENDING] ACTION: Michael to create 'RDFa for uF users' on RDFa Wiki
[recorded in
[56]http://www.w3.org/2008/03/13-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]
[PENDING] ACTION: Ralph think about RSS+RDFa [recorded in
[57]http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action11]
[PENDING] ACTION: Ralph to make
[58]http://www.w3.org/2008/07/rdfa-xslt happen recorded in
[59]http://www.w3.org/2008/07/24-rdfa-minutes.html#action05]
[PENDING] ACTION: Shane to update XHTML ns document to point to new
XSLT URI [recorded in
[60]http://www.w3.org/2008/07/24-rdfa-minutes.html#action06]
[43] http://www.w3.org/2008/08/28-rdfa-minutes.html#action20
[44] http://www.w3.org/2008/08/21-rdfa-minutes.html#action24
[45] http://www.w3.org/2008/07/24-rdfa-minutes.html#action07
[46] http://www.w3.org/2008/08/21-rdfa-minutes.html#action22
[47] http://www.w3.org/2008/08/21-rdfa-minutes.html#action23
[48] http://www.w3.org/2008/07/31-rdfa-minutes.html#action22
[49] http://www.w3.org/2008/08/28-rdfa-minutes.html#action13
[50] http://www.w3.org/2008/08/28-rdfa-minutes.html#action23
[51] http://www.w3.org/2008/08/28-rdfa-minutes.html#action12
[52] http://www.w3.org/2008/08/21-rdfa-minutes.html#action02
[53] http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action03
[54] http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action12
[55] http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action07
[56] http://www.w3.org/2008/03/13-rdfa-minutes.html#action12
[57] http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action11
[58] http://www.w3.org/2008/07/rdfa-xslt
[59] http://www.w3.org/2008/07/24-rdfa-minutes.html#action05
[60] http://www.w3.org/2008/07/24-rdfa-minutes.html#action06
[DONE] ACTION: Ben add Noah's comments to the tracker [recorded in
[61]http://www.w3.org/2008/08/28-rdfa-minutes.html#action21]
[DONE] ACTION: Ralph prepare to summarize new W3C test suite license
on 28 Aug [recorded in
[62]http://www.w3.org/2008/08/21-rdfa-minutes.html#action03]
[DONE] ACTION: Ralph update draft response to Noah [recorded in
[63]http://www.w3.org/2008/08/28-rdfa-minutes.html#action22]
[DONE] ACTION: Shane to start a wiki page for HTML4/5 [recorded in
[64]http://www.w3.org/2008/07/24-rdfa-minutes.html#action21]
[DONE] ACTION: Shane to write home page for SPREAD. [recorded in
[65]http://www.w3.org/2008/07/03-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]
[61] http://www.w3.org/2008/08/28-rdfa-minutes.html#action21
[62] http://www.w3.org/2008/08/21-rdfa-minutes.html#action03
[63] http://www.w3.org/2008/08/28-rdfa-minutes.html#action22
[64] http://www.w3.org/2008/07/24-rdfa-minutes.html#action21
[65] http://www.w3.org/2008/07/03-rdfa-minutes.html#action12
[End of minutes]
_____________________________________________________
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