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meeting record: 2008-07-29 SWD WG Telecon

From: Sean Bechhofer <sean.bechhofer@manchester.ac.uk>
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 08:29:35 +0100
Message-Id: <C5851DD8-80BA-4F36-90B9-F30DCFA642EF@manchester.ac.uk>
To: SWD Working SWD <public-swd-wg@w3.org>


The minutes of yesterday's telecon are now available for review at  
[1]. As usual, text version also included below.

Cheers,

	Sean

[1] http://www.w3.org/2008/07/29-swd-minutes


---------------------------------------------------------------------

    [1]W3C

       [1] http://www.w3.org/

                       Semantic Web Deployment WG

29 Jul 2008

    [2]Agenda

       [2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2008Jul/ 
0062.html

    See also: [3]IRC log

       [3] http://www.w3.org/2008/07/29-swd-irc

Attendees

    Present
           Guus Schreiber, Antoine Isaac, Alistair Miles, Sean
           Bechhofer, Diego Berrueta, Margherita Sini, Tom Baker, Jeremy
           Carroll

    Regrets
           Ed Summers, Vit Novacek, Ralph Swick, Daniel Rubin

    Chair
           Guus Schreiber

    Scribe
           Sean Bechhofer

Contents

      * [4]Topics
          1. [5]Admin
          2. [6]SKOS
          3. [7]Vocabulary Management
          4. [8]RDFa
          5. [9]Recipes
      * [10]Summary of Action Items
      _________________________________________________________

    <Tom> Previous: [11]http://www.w3.org/2008/07/01-swd-minutes.html

      [11] http://www.w3.org/2008/07/01-swd-minutes.html

    Jeremy: introduces himself.
    ... representing TopQuadrant. Participation mainly for CR.

    Guus: long telecon last time.
    ... some things being revisited on the list. Also possibly
    ... actions that are long gone.

Admin

    Guus: propose to accept minutes
    ... no objections.
    ... next telecon 5th Aug. Guus regrets
    ... Two objectives in mind for these telecons. To get to LC for SKOS
    and PR for RDFa

SKOS

    Guus: Action items.

    ACTION: Ed to investigate what text could be added to primer re.
    concept co-ordination [recorded in
    [12]http://www.w3.org/2008/04/22-swd-minutes.html#action02]
    [CONTINUES]

      [12] http://www.w3.org/2008/04/22-swd-minutes.html#action02

    Guus: My action re primer text. Is this still required?

    Antoine: Can't quite recall.

    ACTION: Guus to write primer text re: broaderGeneric and equivalence
    w/r/t subclass [recorded in
    [13]http://www.w3.org/2008/03/18-swd-minutes.html#action08]
    [CONTINUES]

      [13] http://www.w3.org/2008/03/18-swd-minutes.html#action08

    ACTION: Alistair to check the old namespace wrt dereferencing
    [recorded in
    [14]http://www.w3.org/2008/05/06-swd-minutes.html#action03] [DONE]

      [14] http://www.w3.org/2008/05/06-swd-minutes.html#action03

    Alistair: Sent email some four weeks ago.

    <Antoine>
    [15]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2008Jun/0094.h
    tml

      [15] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2008Jun/ 
0094.html

    ACTION: Antoine and Ed to add content to Primer about irreflexivity
    [recorded in
    [16]http://www.w3.org/2008/05/06-swd-minutes.html#action06] [DONE]

      [16] http://www.w3.org/2008/05/06-swd-minutes.html#action06

    <aliman> [17]email on old skos namespace dereference

      [17] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2008Jun/ 
0095.html

    ACTION: Alistar to update the history page adding direct link to
    latest version of rdf triple [recorded in
    [18]http://www.w3.org/2008/06/17-swd-minutes.html#action01]
    [CONTINUES]

      [18] http://www.w3.org/2008/06/17-swd-minutes.html#action01

    ACTION: SKOS Reference Editors to specifically flag features at risk
    for Last Call. [recorded in
    [19]http://www.w3.org/2008/06/24-swd-minutes.html#action17]
    [CONTINUES]

      [19] http://www.w3.org/2008/06/24-swd-minutes.html#action17

    ACTION: Sean to draft response to comment about namespace. [recorded
    in [20]http://www.w3.org/2008/06/24-swd-minutes.html#action12]
    [DONE]

      [20] http://www.w3.org/2008/06/24-swd-minutes.html#action12

    ->
    [21]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2008Jun/0105.h
    tml

      [21] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2008Jun/ 
0105.html

    <scribe> ACTION: Sean to post comment to OWL WG re annotation
    requirements. [recorded in
    [22]http://www.w3.org/2008/06/24-swd-minutes.html#action06]
    [CONTINUES]

      [22] http://www.w3.org/2008/06/24-swd-minutes.html#action06

    ACTION: SKOS Reference Editors to propose a recommended minimum URI
    dereference behaviour [recorded in
    [23]http://www.w3.org/2008/06/24-swd-minutes.html#action11] [DONE]

      [23] http://www.w3.org/2008/06/24-swd-minutes.html#action11

    ->
    [24]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2008Jul/0004.h
    tml

      [24] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2008Jul/ 
0004.html

    ACTION: Guus to mail his position on issues 72, 73 and 75 to the
    list [DROPPED] [recorded in
    [25]http://www.w3.org/2008/07/29-swd-minutes.html#action10]

      [25] http://www.w3.org/2008/07/29-swd-minutes.html#action10

    ACTION: Alistair and Sean to propose text to implement the
    resolution of issue-72 [recorded in
    [26]http://www.w3.org/2008/07/01-swd-minutes.html#action05] [DONE]

      [26] http://www.w3.org/2008/07/01-swd-minutes.html#action05

    <aliman>
    [27]http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/SKOS/reference/master.html

      [27] http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/SKOS/reference/master.html

    Guus: Which issues to we need to discuss here. Namespace and
    broader/transitive
    ... would like to see if we need more discussion there. Also
    ... talk about LC schedule. When will drafts be available and
    reviewers.
    ... Discussion of namespace issue.
    ... Is there reason to review our decision?

    Alistair: Sent an email last week.
    ... Trying to think what pros and cons of each approach are.
    ... ->
    [28]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2008Jul/0034.h
    tml
    ... A move to a new namespace has little upside and a lot of
    downside.
    ... stick to old has advantages. All the existing stuff can be
    claimed as implementations of
    ... SKOS. Also tools that are there already. A new namespace means
    we have to wait for implementation
    ... plus there will be a period of time while people migrate, which
    could take years.
    ... Realistically means tool developrs have to maintain multiple
    implemetations.
    ... Bottom line is that there is little gain from a new namespace
    and a cost involved.
    ... Assumed that the LC would use the new namespace, but marked as
    "at risk".
    ... Would appreciate comments.

      [28] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2008Jul/ 
0034.html

    Guus: I see objections, but no need to reopen the issue.

    Alistair: Under what circumstances would we need to reopen the
    issue?

    Guus: if we reopen, we can't go to LC.
    ... saw one comment that the change in semantics requires a new
    namespace (Simon Spero)

    Alistair: unsure whether to take this comment. There may be some
    misunderstanding of transitive.

    Guus: Happy to mark it as "at risk".

    Alistair: Ok

    Antoine: Would like to discuss ISSUE 83. Semantics of concept scheme
    containment
    ... some problems with the implementation. Alistair proposes a new
    property to capture the
    ... semantics.

    Guus: This seems rather drastic at this point.

    <Antoine>
    [29]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2008Jul/0036.h
    tml

      [29] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2008Jul/ 
0036.html

    <Antoine> -> start of the thread

    Alistair: I think this is less drastic.

    <aliman>
    [30]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2008May/0068.h
    tml

      [30] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2008May/ 
0068.html

    <aliman> ex:cs skos:hasTopConcept ex:c.

    Alistair: Email above contains resolution to the issues. Email
    merely states an entailment.

    <aliman> entails the graph:

    <aliman> ex:c skos:inScheme ex:cs

    Alistair: want to follow this entailment, but resolution doesn't
    state how we go about making this happen.
    ... Spent some time thinking and what we're trying to say is that
    skos:hasTopConcept has an inverse which is a
    ... subproperty of skos:inScheme
    ... Most obvious way to express this is to name the inverse and then
    state it explicitly.
    ... if we don't name it then it requires an anonymous property. This
    ... could be a potential problem. Would appreciate input from
    Jeremy.

    Jeremy: OWL2 may be about to allow anonymous properties. One issue
    is that it pushes
    ... you out of OWL DL. Can't use the anonymous property in a triple
    (not as predicate).
    ... so in terms of describing the relationships, there's nothing
    particularly wrong, but implementations
    ... may find it difficult. Procedurally, putting in an anonymous
    property may cause trouble,
    ... but a new property might also cause problems.

    Guus: But other things are not stated in the data model.

    Alistair: There are two constraints expressed as prose, but there is
    no way to do that in
    ... RDF or OWL. Here, it *is* possible to do it.
    ... Would avoid complication of anonymous properties.

    Guus: Only require inverse of hasTopConcept or inScheme.
    ... topConceptOf would do the trick.

    Alistair: Called it topConceptInScheme in Ref.

    Guus: awful name!

    Alistair: Subjective view. Not really worried about the naming.

    Jeremy: is the intention to document the relationship within OWL.
    Could one include this in
    ... a separate file with a seeAlso.

    Alistair: If we can do it without jumping through hoops, why not do
    it?

    Guus: Surprised that other constraints can be expressed in RDF.

    Alistair: All but two current. Would be three with this one.

    Guus: WHat's the problem with three rather than two?

    Alistair: For this one, we could do it.

    Guus: But only at the cost of new vocabulary.

    Alistair: But non-standard semantics is also costly.

    Antoine: Can't see why my axiom is not valid OWL

    Alistair: Entailments that follow are not valid RDF.

    Jeremy: There is a bug with RDF (ter Horst). Significant problems
    and adding an anonymous
    ... property would exercise that bug. Would advise against it.

    Antoine: That's the argument I was looking for.
    ... Also assume a bug in the OWL specification then.

    Jeremy: There is a need for a bug fix. But will not be done any time
    soon.

    Guus: We're not going there.

    Jeremy: Cost of new predicate vs. non-standard. New predicate is
    cheaper.
    ... preference would be to say nothing.

    Guus: small cost with a small group.

    Sean: preference for new predicate.

    Guus: Suggest that Reference Editors make a proposal for this.
    ... Will reopen ISSUE 83, but expect a proposal to close with a new
    property.

    Alistair: Do we need to open the issue?

    Guus: yes, need documented rationale.
    ... alternative is to open new issue and immediately propose closing
    it.
    ... That might be better.
    ... for me topConceptOf would be an appropriate name.
    ... Propose a new issue which is then closed.

    ACTION: Alistair to open issue relating to topConceptOf and propose
    a resolution. [recorded in
    [31]http://www.w3.org/2008/07/29-swd-minutes.html#action12]

      [31] http://www.w3.org/2008/07/29-swd-minutes.html#action12

    Guus: Any more w.r.t content?

    Antoine: happy

    Guus: Margherita reviewed, but reviewed the old draft.
    ... chance for a new draft next week?

    Alistair: Think so. Resolutions to things are done. Need to mark at
    rsik and some editorial stuff.

    Guus: Earliest possible for LC decision is August 19th.
    ... problem for Guus as on holiday. Could review but only in next
    two days.

    Alistair: Have to finish this week.

    Guus: Could do it if it's there by Friday.

    Alistair: Could provide a link which will be pretty much the version
    we publish.

    Guus: Can expect cmments by the 12th, one week for discussion and a
    decision about LC
    ... on the 19th.
    ... would be preferable if at the same point we have a primer draft
    consistent with the Reference.

    Antoine: Feasible apart from action on co-ordination.
    ... Version of the primer for the 19th?

    Guus: Would also like to take a decision about publishing primer on
    19th.
    ... agenda item for next week will be scheduling.
    ... also need to discuss LC period given that
    ... publishing will take a few days. 5-6 week period is appropriate.
    ... end September/beginning October.

    Sean: some traffic on the list about broader/broaderTransitive.

    Guus: no new arguments there. No real evidence to reopen this.

    Alistair: i'd agree. Concerned about how many people misunderstand
    this.
    ... not a technical problem, but perhaps some confusion with names.
    ... its a shame that people are misunderstanding this.

    Sean: Question of education rather than technical details.

    Antoine: Whatever the names, the pattern will be the same, and
    that's
    ... hard for people to get.

    Guus: Will pay attention to this.

    Jeremy: Is a simple example more accessible? Parent/Ancestor etc?

    Sean: is the reference an appropriate place for this?

    Antoine: Could put some drawings in the primer.

    Alistair: Antoine's slide at the SKOS event was very clear.

    Antoine: Animated.

    Guus: Could make snapshots.

    Guus: Parent/ancestor is already a long way towards this.

Vocabulary Management

    Guus: nobody here

RDFa

    Guus: nobody here

    <aliman> [32]ISKO event with link to antoine's slides

      [32] http://www.iskouk.org/SKOS_July2008.htm

    ACTION: Ben to prepare draft implementation report for RDFa (with
    assistance from Michael) [recorded in
    [33]http://www.w3.org/2008/01/22-swd-minutes.html#action14]
    [CONTINUES]

      [33] http://www.w3.org/2008/01/22-swd-minutes.html#action14

Recipes

    Guus: Recipes?

    Diego: Document is ready to be published. Ralph has not had time
    ... to do it.
    ... will try to publish asap

    ACTION: Ralph/Diego to work on Wordnet implementation [of Recipes
    implementations] [recorded in
    [34]http://www.w3.org/2008/01/22-swd-minutes.html#action20]
    [CONTINUES]

      [34] http://www.w3.org/2008/01/22-swd-minutes.html#action20

    ACTION: Jon and Ralph to publish Recipes as Working Group Note
    [recorded in
    [35]http://www.w3.org/2008/06/10-swd-minutes.html#action03]
    [CONTINUES]

      [35] http://www.w3.org/2008/06/10-swd-minutes.html#action03

    Jeremy: back to RDFa, at call on Thursday, hope to get WG approval
    on 19th.
    ... reviewers to be appointed for 5th.

    Guus: Only need review for implementation report. WG should check
    that we've met the conditions.
    ... not like reviewing a regular document

    Jeremy: Only major change was on Primer. HTML vs XHTML issue.

    Guus: useful background
    ... next telecon 5th August, then 19th August

Summary of Action Items

    [NEW] ACTION: Alistair to open issue relating to topConceptOf and
    propose a resolution. [recorded in
    [36]http://www.w3.org/2008/07/29-swd-minutes.html#action12]

      [36] http://www.w3.org/2008/07/29-swd-minutes.html#action12

    [PENDING] ACTION: Alistar to update the history page adding direct
    link to latest version of rdf triple [recorded in
    [37]http://www.w3.org/2008/06/17-swd-minutes.html#action01]
    [PENDING] ACTION: Ben to prepare draft implementation report for
    RDFa (with assistance from Michael) [recorded in
    [38]http://www.w3.org/2008/01/22-swd-minutes.html#action14]
    [PENDING] ACTION: Ed to investigate what text could be added to
    primer re. concept co-ordination [recorded in
    [39]http://www.w3.org/2008/04/22-swd-minutes.html#action02]
    [PENDING] ACTION: Guus to write primer text re: broaderGeneric and
    equivalence w/r/t subclass [recorded in
    [40]http://www.w3.org/2008/03/18-swd-minutes.html#action08]
    [PENDING] ACTION: Jon and Ralph to publish Recipes as Working Group
    Note [recorded in
    [41]http://www.w3.org/2008/06/10-swd-minutes.html#action03]
    [PENDING] ACTION: Ralph/Diego to work on Wordnet implementation [of
    Recipes implementations] [recorded in
    [42]http://www.w3.org/2008/01/22-swd-minutes.html#action20]
    [PENDING] ACTION: Sean to post comment to OWL WG re annotation
    requirements. [recorded in
    [43]http://www.w3.org/2008/06/24-swd-minutes.html#action06]
    [PENDING] ACTION: SKOS Reference Editors to specifically flag
    features at risk for Last Call. [recorded in
    [44]http://www.w3.org/2008/06/24-swd-minutes.html#action17]

      [37] http://www.w3.org/2008/06/17-swd-minutes.html#action01
      [38] http://www.w3.org/2008/01/22-swd-minutes.html#action14
      [39] http://www.w3.org/2008/04/22-swd-minutes.html#action02
      [40] http://www.w3.org/2008/03/18-swd-minutes.html#action08
      [41] http://www.w3.org/2008/06/10-swd-minutes.html#action03
      [42] http://www.w3.org/2008/01/22-swd-minutes.html#action20
      [43] http://www.w3.org/2008/06/24-swd-minutes.html#action06
      [44] http://www.w3.org/2008/06/24-swd-minutes.html#action17

    [DONE] ACTION: Alistair to check the old namespace wrt dereferencing
    [recorded in
    [45]http://www.w3.org/2008/05/06-swd-minutes.html#action03]
    [DONE] ACTION: Antoine and Ed to add content to Primer about
    irreflexivity [recorded in
    [46]http://www.w3.org/2008/05/06-swd-minutes.html#action06]
    [DONE] ACTION: Sean to draft response to comment about namespace.
    [recorded in
    [47]http://www.w3.org/2008/06/24-swd-minutes.html#action12]
    [DONE] ACTION: SKOS Reference Editors to propose a recommended
    minimum URI dereference behaviour [recorded in
    [48]http://www.w3.org/2008/06/24-swd-minutes.html#action11]
    [DONE] ACTION: Alistair and Sean to propose text to implement the
    resolution of issue-72 [recorded in
    [49]http://www.w3.org/2008/07/01-swd-minutes.html#action05]

      [45] http://www.w3.org/2008/05/06-swd-minutes.html#action03
      [46] http://www.w3.org/2008/05/06-swd-minutes.html#action06
      [47] http://www.w3.org/2008/06/24-swd-minutes.html#action12
      [48] http://www.w3.org/2008/06/24-swd-minutes.html#action11
      [49] http://www.w3.org/2008/07/01-swd-minutes.html#action05

    [DROPPED] ACTION: Guus to mail his position on issues 72, 73 and 75
    to the list [recorded in
    [50]http://www.w3.org/2008/07/29-swd-minutes.html#action10]

      [50] http://www.w3.org/2008/07/29-swd-minutes.html#action10

    [End of minutes]
      _________________________________________________________


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--
Sean Bechhofer
School of Computer Science
University of Manchester
sean.bechhofer@manchester.ac.uk
http://www.cs.manchester.ac.uk/people/bechhofer
Received on Wednesday, 30 July 2008 07:29:53 UTC

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