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meeting record: 2008-04-22 SWD telecon

From: Sean Bechhofer <sean.bechhofer@manchester.ac.uk>
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 09:52:34 +0100
Message-Id: <2B5F6004-902E-48F0-A5B1-5549EBB4CAAB@manchester.ac.uk>
To: SWD Working SWD <public-swd-wg@w3.org>

	
The record of yesterday's SWD telecon [1] is now available. Text  
version below.

Cheers,

	Sean

[1] http://www.w3.org/2008/04/22-swd-minutes.html


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    [1]W3C

       [1] http://www.w3.org/

                          SemWeb Deployment WG

22 Apr 2008

    [2]Agenda

       [2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2008Apr/ 
0088.html

    See also: [3]IRC log

       [3] http://www.w3.org/2008/04/22-swd-irc

Attendees

    Present
           Ralph Swick, Tom Baker, Diego Berruetta, Guus Schreiber,
           Alistair Miles, Ed Summers, Antoine Isaac, Sean Bechhofer,
           Margherita Sini, Elisa Kendall

    Regrets
           Daniel Rubin, Vit Novacek, Simone Onofri, Jon Phipps, Quentin
           Reul

    Chair
           Guus

    Scribe
           Sean

Contents

      * [4]Topics
          1. [5]Admin
          2. [6]SKOS
          3. [7]RDFa
          4. [8]Recipes
          5. [9]Vocabulary Management
      * [10]Summary of Action Items
      _________________________________________________________

Admin

    Guus: Next telecon 29th April
    ... no telecon on 6th May

    Ralph: at risk for 29th April.

    Guus: Could produce telecon schedule until Summer.
    ... hopefully done by then!

    PROPOSE to accept minutes

    RESOLVED

    ACTION: Chairs to draft charter extension proposal for SKOS until
    July 1st [recorded in
    [11]http://www.w3.org/2008/02/26-swd-minutes.html#action01]
    [CONTINUES]

      [11] http://www.w3.org/2008/02/26-swd-minutes.html#action01

    [12]6-7 May f2f agenda

      [12] http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/wiki/WashingtonAgenda

    Guus: F2f 6-7 May in Washington. Draft agenda + local arrangements.
    ... Advise hotel bookings asap.

SKOS

    Guus: Look at open issues.
    ... Report on status

    [13]issue 40; ConceptCoordination

      [13] http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/track/issues/40

    Alistair: Recent discussion. Still view this as nice to have feature
    but not essential. Need well worked through proposal. If not, drop
    the feature.

    Guus: My feeling is to postpone.

    Alistair: yes, that's an option
    ... quite late in the day. Unlikely to get something in a good
    state. Could be done as extensions

    Guus: Don't want to spend lots of time on this.

    Alistair: Co-ordination is key to LCSH. Ed and Clay should shout if
    it's really important

    Ed: yes, important at LC. But having some time outside the meeting
    to discuss things would be ok.

    Guus: Ed could become issue owner and consider how critical it is.
    If it is, then prepare a discussion.
    ... Would this block SKOS usage of LC?

    Ed: No. Going forward there is interest in representing co-ordinated
    concepts. Either SKOS core or
    ... extension would be fine. No strong feeling that it needs to be
    part of the core.

    Guus: Suggestion is that it's not part of the core. But include
    reference to possible patterns in Primer/Reference

    Ed: Could work with Antoine on this.

    ACTION: Ed to investigate what text could be added to primer re.
    concept co-ordination [recorded in
    [14]http://www.w3.org/2008/04/22-swd-minutes.html#action02]

    -> [15]http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/track/issues/37

      [15] http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/track/issues/37

    Alistair: Guus was going to draft some text for the primer on this.

    Antoine: Already done. Some discrepancy between Washington agenda
    and issue tracker.

    Alistair: Confused between 37 and 56...
    ... 37 is design patterns for extending SKOS. For 37, haven't done
    anything yet.

    [General confusion about issue owners]

    Alistair: Different issues. One about general extensions. One about
    particular extension.
    ... resolution for 37 is simply providing examples.
    ...of how to do things.

    <Antoine>
    [16]http://www.w3.org/TR/skos-primer/#secskosspecialization

      [16] http://www.w3.org/TR/skos-primer/#secskosspecialization

    Ralph: Guus's action on primer text on broadergeneric is associated
    wth this.

    Antoine: Copied link to primer section. This section may now be
    wrong, but there is some text that can be adapted.

    Guus: You are proposing that we resolve this with text in the
    primer?

    <Ralph> [17]ISSUE 37+56 [11]

      [17] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2008Mar/ 
0037.html
      [11] http://www.w3.org/2008/02/26-swd-minutes.html#action01

    Alistair: This is more of a how to than core vocabulary.

    Guus: Not a real technical issue. More about getting the right text
    into the primer

    -> [18]http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/track/issues/56 Issue 56

      [18] http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/track/issues/56

    <Ralph> [issue-37 was discussed in ->
    [19]http://www.w3.org/2008/03/18-swd-minutes.html#item02 18-March
    telecon]

      [19] http://www.w3.org/2008/03/18-swd-minutes.html#item02

    Guus: Outstanding issue. Need to prepare discussion. Spent time on
    this in Amsterdam recently. Proposal will be ready for the f2f.

    -> [20]http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/track/issues/71

      [20] http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/track/issues/71

    Alistair: On my TODO list. Need to go back over emails and review
    options.

    Guus: Antoine is issue owner here.

    Antoine: I own it, but am waiting for Alistair to send the mail.

    Guus: What do we expect for f2f?

    Antoine: Can prepare something once Alistair has reacted.

    Alistair: Next thing on my list.

    -> [21]http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/track/issues/74 Issue 74

      [21] http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/track/issues/74

    Alistair: Treating 71 and 74 as two sides of the same coin.

    -> [22]http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/track/issues/80 Issue 80

      [22] http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/track/issues/80

    Guus: Textual issue for reference and primer.

    Alistair: True, but questions about imports.
    ... for the most part, a question of nice explanatory text.
    ... which lives in the primer

    Antoine: Would like to postpone as this is dependent on Issue 56.
    ... Resolution of 56 may effect 80.

    Guus: Don't want to postpone discussion on too many issues in
    Washington.
    ... Would like to tackle remaining issues.

    <Ralph> [23]SKOS and imports [16]

      [23] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2008Apr/ 
0078.html
      [16] http://www.w3.org/TR/skos-primer/#secskosspecialization

    seanb: have some issues to discuss, would be useful

    ... I was talking to people in OWL WG about imports, how imports is
    used in reference and primer, they were uneasy with the examples

    seanb: one question not clear to me, what do you want to represent
    through use of owl imports, what it means for vocab to import
    another
    ... OWL view, ontology is a collection of axioms, using OWL imports
    express that imported ontology, all reasoning should be done in
    context of imported axioms
    ... using owl imports across skos concept schemes does not respect
    semantics of owl import
    ... concern about misusing the vocabulary.
    ... number of ways to use imports, one is for named graph approach.
    If one concept scheme consists of multiple parts, you can indicate
    with imports that there is one namespace document that represents
    the whole concept scheme, that is proper use of imports...
    ... just expressing fact that you should include all the axioms.

    Guus: Across concept schemes, you mean importing mapping
    relationships?

    seanb: there is a simple example in the reference, says [...]
    comment here, no relationship between inscheme and owl:imports
    ...one thing you want to do, grab some RDF graphs, consider one
    graph to contain another graph. Using owl:imports because its only
    machinery for doing that. No way to say one rdf graph contain
    another.
    ... so question is, is it really the right thing to do, or the only
    thing that will get that behaviour?
    ... Or do we want to talk about OWL ontologies?

    guus: Why is it not an ontology? An ontology is also just an RDF
    graph. I don't see the real problem.

    seanb: One suggestion made, should we set up a task force between
    this WG and OWL WG, check in agreement on how this is working.
    That's a proposal they put to me.
    ... concern over whether this is appropriate use of owl imports.

    Alistair when we wrote the current draft of the reference, the goal
    was not necessarily to recommend using owl:imports but to leave the
    door open
    ... we could decide to close the door on owl:imports completely or
    continue to leave the door open
    ... at the moment it does look like we're recommending the use of
    owl:import
    ... we could backtrack on this
    ... but if we do want to leave the door open to owl:import, what
    would we need to say to keep everyone happy?

    guus: forsee long discussion with OWL WG on this.
    ... prefer to be on conservative side.

    seanb: one suggestion is, we don't explicitly talk about owl imports
    in the SKOS reference. Or should we include that explicitly as an
    example of what one could do?

    Guus: could we drop import from Reference?

    Alistair: the problem is more with the Primer than with Reference
    ... perhaps the better option is to drop owl:imports from Primer but
    leave mention with caveats in Reference

    guus: less risky to put it in a note (primer) than recommendation
    (reference).

    <Elisa> the latest thinking on imports in the OWL WG is currently
    posted to the OWL wiki at
    [24]http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Imports if that's helpful

      [24] http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Imports

    guus: seems like need to take more preparation for f2f.

    <Ralph> [putting material that requires caveats into a Primer feels
    wrong to me]

    Guus: Would like to revisit Issue 26 at F2f and check that this is
    all ok.
    ... Current pattern that we have in reference is perceived as
    non-intuitive.

    <Ralph> [25]issue 26; RelationshipsBetweenLabels

      [25] http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/track/issues/26

    Guus: Want to make sure that we take the right decision.

    Antoine: Quite optimisitc with the latest proposal from Alistair
    ... could be ok

    Guus: Worried if relationships between labels aren't core
    vocabulary.

    Alistair: Should reopen this. In a good position to discuss options

    Guus: Will review this.
    ... Would be good to discuss both Ref and Primer and look at main
    pieces of work to be done.
    ... Come up with planning.
    ... Current proposal assumes that there will be a Last Call document
    ready by 1st July. Seven weeks
    ...after f2f. Is this reasonable? Will be official in charter
    proposal

    Alistair: Take decisions at F2f, month to prepare new draft and then
    two weeks for internal reviews.

    Ed: Yes

    Guus: SKOS XL already discussed.
    ... review whether it's an extension or core vocabulary.

    Antoine: Question about agenda and issues. Tom circulated list of
    issues last week. Different from the
    ...one that's on the agenda. Did I miss something?

    <Antoine>
    [26]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2008Apr/0074.h
    tml

      [26] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2008Apr/ 
0074.html

    Guus: What's missing?

    Antoine: skos:subject issue for example.

    Alistair: Indexing relationship; notation; semantics of
    broader/narrower
    ... three things we haven't talked about. Also symbolic labels.
    ... four things that impact vocabluary.

    Guus: Add these to open issue list

    Tom: Will add them to the agenda.

    ACTION: Antoine will review Alistair's proposals w/r/t the
    relationship between the existing solution and the extension
    [recorded in
    [27]http://www.w3.org/2008/03/18-swd-minutes.html#action06] [DONE]

      [27] http://www.w3.org/2008/03/18-swd-minutes.html#action06

    ACTION: Guus to write primer text re: broaderGeneric and equivalence
    w/r/t subclass [recorded in
    [28]http://www.w3.org/2008/03/18-swd-minutes.html#action08]
    [CONTINUES]

      [28] http://www.w3.org/2008/03/18-swd-minutes.html#action08

    ACTION: Ralph to check whether the common interpretation of rdfs
    isDefinedBy fits the reasoning that was made in
    [29]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2007Oct/0141.h
    tml [recorded in
    [30]http://www.w3.org/2007/12/18-swd-minutes.html#action10]
    [CONTINUES]

      [29] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2007Oct/ 
0141.html
      [30] http://www.w3.org/2007/12/18-swd-minutes.html#action10

    ACTION: Alistair to make a proposal for Issue 40 (Concept
    Coordination) [recorded in
    [31]http://www.w3.org/2008/01/29-swd-minutes.html#action09]
    [CONTINUES]

      [31] http://www.w3.org/2008/01/29-swd-minutes.html#action09

    ACTION: Alistair to review Antoine and Guus' emails to move ISSUE-71
    and -74 [recorded in
    [32]http://www.w3.org/2008/03/18-swd-minutes.html#action09]
    [CONTINUES]

      [32] http://www.w3.org/2008/03/18-swd-minutes.html#action09

RDFa

    Ralph: Main resolution is response to a commenter to add fucntiona
    as well as procedural.
    ... Any of those there would prefer functional, but didn't feel they
    could produce it and be consistent
    ... in the time. Will defer until some later date.
    ... Key item for today. Ben asked for WG review of new Primer.

    Guus: Two reviewers?

    Ed: Diego and Ed did this before.

    Guus: Diego, Ed will you do this?

    Diego: yes

    Ed: Yes

    <Ralph> [33]RDFa Primer ready for Working Group review Ben
    2008-04-22]

      [33] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2008Apr/ 
0096.html

    <Ralph> [34]RDFa Primer editor's draft 2008-04-22

      [34] http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/primer/20080422/

    ACTION: Ed to review RDFa Primer Editor's draft
    [35]http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/primer/20080422/] recorded
    in [36]http://www.w3.org/2008/04/22-swd-minutes.html#action08]

      [35] http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/primer/20080422/

    ACTION: Diego to review RDFa Primer Editor's draft
    [37]http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/primer/20080422/] recorded
    in [38]http://www.w3.org/2008/04/22-swd-minutes.html#action09]

      [37] http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/primer/20080422/

    Guus: Charter extension proposal. Revised version of LC for 1st
    July.

    ACTION: Ben to prepare draft implementation report for RDFa (with
    assistance from Michael) [recorded in
    [39]http://www.w3.org/2008/01/22-swd-minutes.html#action14]
    [CONTINUES]

      [39] http://www.w3.org/2008/01/22-swd-minutes.html#action14

Recipes

    Guus: Propose in the charter extension that the WG Note on recipes
    is published by June. Reasonable?

    Diego: yes. Document is in good shape. Once examples are moved,
    ready to publish.

    Ralph: Unlikely to be able to finish wordnet action in that time.
    ... Doesn't need to hold up the publication. Comfortable with the
    date.

    Guus: Can expect revised draft soon with all issues
    resolved/postponed.

    Ralph: Shouldn't be surprised if we get substantial comments from
    TAG re. con-neg.

    Guus: Reviewers?
    ... Tom and Ed
    ... Can expect a new request to review.

    ACTION: Ralph propose resolution to ISSUE-16 "Default behavior"
    [recorded in
    [40]http://www.w3.org/2007/01/22-swd-minutes.html#action14]
    [CONTINUES]

      [40] http://www.w3.org/2007/01/22-swd-minutes.html#action14

    <Tom> Tom did not review Recipes

    ACTION: Ralph/Diego to work on Wordnet implementation [of Recipes
    implementations] [recorded in
    [41]http://www.w3.org/2008/01/22-swd-minutes.html#action20]
    [CONTINUES]

      [41] http://www.w3.org/2008/01/22-swd-minutes.html#action20

Vocabulary Management

    Elisa: Thanks for detailed comments.
    ... Working forward to provide responses. A few things to discuss at
    F2F.
    ... get some responses to stuff we can do in advance.

    Guus: Would like to see list of topics for F2F.

    Elisa: Alistair had comments on URI schemes, maintenance policies
    etc.
    ... need some input to ensure that we mention the right policies and
    say the right things.

    Alistair: took private action to look at what it says about SKOS
    there. Don't quite know what we're going to do about SKOS.
    ...Last time, thought up a bunch of poilicies and rwrote them down.
    What we said would happen
    ... wasn't exactly what happened.

    Elisa: Yes, so want some discussion about what we should and
    shouldn't say.

    Ralph: Can't write this until we know what we're doin with SKOS

    Elisa: Some smaller issues, other larger ones that need discussion.
    At least laundry list of things
    ... that need talking about.
    ... Will try and come up with list for next week.

    Guus: Revised version of the document by F2F?

    Elisa: Can solve lightweight issues and leave TO-DOS.

    Guus: ideal

    Elisa: Can put markers in document.
    ... one to two hours?

    Guus: Second afternoon, 2:30 until the end of the meeting. 1.5-2
    hours.
    ... Lots of work in June. Would like notes out by 1st June so that
    we can
    ... concentrate on other stuff. Requires some decisions to be made
    at f2f (e.g. deprecated vocabulary).

    Elisa: Should be possible.

    Tom: A Note means strong consensus from the WG. I see issues that
    may not be addressed in the time.
    ... e.g what is a vocabulary. Do we have time to do this as a note?

    <Ralph> [42]RE: [VM] Review of 16 March Editor's Draft Alistair
    2008-04-11]

      [42] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2008Apr/ 
0054.html

    Guus: Other Recommendations define this so this isn't our worry.
    ... Different routes we could take. We could spend another year on
    this.

    Ralph: If we don't have consensus, then we shouldn't publish Note.
    Should be uncompleted
    ... working draft if no consensus.

    Guus; ok. Option to publish as Working Draft

    Elisa: Fine. Will do what I can to address comments. Leave issues
    for f2f and then we go from there.

    [adjourned]

Summary of Action Items

    [NEW] ACTION: Diego to review RDFa Primer Editor's draft
    [43]http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/primer/20080422/] recorded
    in [44]http://www.w3.org/2008/04/22-swd-minutes.html#action09]
    [NEW] ACTION: Ed to investigate what text could be added to primer
    re. concept co-ordination [recorded in
    [45]http://www.w3.org/2008/04/22-swd-minutes.html#action02]
    [NEW] ACTION: Ed to review RDFa Primer Editor's draft
    [46]http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/primer/20080422/] recorded
    in [47]http://www.w3.org/2008/04/22-swd-minutes.html#action08]

      [43] http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/primer/20080422/
      [46] http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/primer/20080422/

    [PENDING] ACTION: Alistair to make a proposal for Issue 40 (Concept
    Coordination) [recorded in
    [48]http://www.w3.org/2008/01/29-swd-minutes.html#action09]
    [PENDING] ACTION: Alistair to review Antoine and Guus' emails to
    move ISSUE-71 and -74 [recorded in
    [49]http://www.w3.org/2008/03/18-swd-minutes.html#action09]
    [PENDING] ACTION: Ben to prepare draft implementation report for
    RDFa (with assistance from Michael) [recorded in
    [50]http://www.w3.org/2008/01/22-swd-minutes.html#action14]
    [PENDING] ACTION: Chairs to draft charter extension proposal for
    SKOS until July 1st [recorded in
    [51]http://www.w3.org/2008/02/26-swd-minutes.html#action01]
    [PENDING] ACTION: Guus to write primer text re: broaderGeneric and
    equivalence w/r/t subclass [recorded in
    [52]http://www.w3.org/2008/03/18-swd-minutes.html#action08]
    [PENDING] ACTION: Ralph propose resolution to ISSUE-16 "Default
    behavior" [recorded in
    [53]http://www.w3.org/2007/01/22-swd-minutes.html#action14]
    [PENDING] ACTION: Ralph to check whether the common interpretation
    of rdfs isDefinedBy fits the reasoning that was made in
    [54]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2007Oct/0141.h
    tml [recorded in
    [55]http://www.w3.org/2007/12/18-swd-minutes.html#action10]
    [PENDING] ACTION: Ralph/Diego to work on Wordnet implementation [of
    Recipes implementations] [recorded in
    [56]http://www.w3.org/2008/01/22-swd-minutes.html#action20]

      [48] http://www.w3.org/2008/01/29-swd-minutes.html#action09
      [49] http://www.w3.org/2008/03/18-swd-minutes.html#action09
      [50] http://www.w3.org/2008/01/22-swd-minutes.html#action14
      [51] http://www.w3.org/2008/02/26-swd-minutes.html#action01
      [52] http://www.w3.org/2008/03/18-swd-minutes.html#action08
      [53] http://www.w3.org/2007/01/22-swd-minutes.html#action14
      [54] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2007Oct/ 
0141.html
      [55] http://www.w3.org/2007/12/18-swd-minutes.html#action10
      [56] http://www.w3.org/2008/01/22-swd-minutes.html#action20

    [DONE] ACTION: Antoine will review Alistair's proposals w/r/t the
    relationship between the existing solution and the extension
    [recorded in
    [57]http://www.w3.org/2008/03/18-swd-minutes.html#action06]

      [57] http://www.w3.org/2008/03/18-swd-minutes.html#action06

    [End of minutes]
      _________________________________________________________


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--
Sean Bechhofer
School of Computer Science
University of Manchester
sean.bechhofer@manchester.ac.uk
http://www.cs.manchester.ac.uk/people/bechhofer
Received on Wednesday, 23 April 2008 08:53:44 UTC

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