- From: Sean Bechhofer <sean.bechhofer@manchester.ac.uk>
- Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 11:15:34 +0000
- To: SWD Working SWD <public-swd-wg@w3.org>
The record [1] of this week's SWD telecon is ready for review. Text
copy below.
[1] http://www.w3.org/2007/10/30-swd-minutes.html
Sean
------------------------------------------------------------------------
------
[1]W3C
[1] http://www.w3.org/
SWD WG
30 Oct 2007
[2]Agenda
[2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2007Oct/
0120.html
See also: [3]IRC log, previous [4]2007-10-23
[3] http://www.w3.org/2007/10/30-swd-irc
[4] http://www.w3.org/2007/10/23-swd-minutes.html
Attendees
Present
Ralph Swick, Ed Summers, Justin Thorp, Elisa Kendall, Antoine
Isaac, Alistair Miles, Jon Phipps, Sean Bechhofer, Guus
Schreiber, Deigo Berrueta, Tom Baker, Daniel Rubin, Clay
Redding
Regrets
Dan Brickley, Vit Novacek, Simone Onofri, Quentin Ruel
Chair
Guus
Scribe
Sean
Contents
* [5]Topics
1. [6]Admin
2. [7]SWD review of "Cool URIs for the Semantic Web"
3. [8]SKOS
4. [9]Vocabulary Management
* [10]Summary of Action Items
_________________________________________________________
Admin
PROPOSE to accept the minutes of the F2F with
...amendments from Antoine
...[11]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2007Oct/010
7.html
...[12]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2007Oct/010
9.html
... Additional amendment from Alistair
... We make no statement either way about whether skos:Concept is
disjoint or not disjoint with owl:Class
... and from Tom
...[13]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2007Oct/013
7.html
[11] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2007Oct/
0107.html
[12] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2007Oct/
0109.html
[13] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2007Oct/
0137.html
RESOLVED to accept the minutes with the above amendments
<scribe> ACTION: Ralph to update face to face minutes to reflect the
amendment and capture attendees[recorded in
[14]http://www.w3.org/2007/10/30-swd-minutes.html#action01]
PROPOSED to accept minutes of the Oct 23 telecon:
[15]http://www.w3.org/2007/10/23-swd-minutes.html
[15] http://www.w3.org/2007/10/23-swd-minutes.html
RESOLVED
SWD review of "Cool URIs for the Semantic Web"
Guus: Nothing to track here for this telecon
... comments have gone to SWEO group. For the moment,
... we can be silent on this.
Ralph: We're done with that task. Can remove from agenda.
SKOS
<Ralph> [16]http://www.w3.org/2007/10/23-swd-minutes.html#action14
[16] http://www.w3.org/2007/10/23-swd-minutes.html#action14
<Antoine>
[17]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2007Oct/0139.h
tml
[17] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2007Oct/
0139.html
Guus: The minutes capture the interpretation.
<aliman> s/transitive/functional/
Ralph: We're happy that it's not functional?
Guus: Yes, there may be examples where it's not.
Ralph: Context of that discussion were w.r.t the semantics of
inScheme
... recently had a discussion in a separate group about semantics of
isDefinedBy
... would be nice to have even stronger semantics for isDefinedBy
<aliman> I remember TimBL saying something like that about
isDefinedBy in the context of the tabulator
Ralph: is this group interested in going further with this?
Guus: Can't do this -- we'd need to define our own property
<aliman> TimBL wanted to avoid having to make unecessary HTTP
requests
Ralph: Would be acceptable for this group to suggest what the
semantics of
... isDefinedBy are.
... if they wished to
<aliman> +1 possibly useful interpretation, especially for large
vocabularies -- typical for SKOS
Guus: If this isn't inappropriate, it might be useful
ACTION: Ralph to reconstruct proposal for semantics of isDefinedBy
[recorded in
[18]http://www.w3.org/2007/10/30-swd-minutes.html#action02]
Alistair: Two separate issues
... stronger semantics for isDefinedBy could be useful to reduce
HTTP call overhead
... also whether or not we think of inScheme as functional. Is it
reasonable to think of concepts in
... more that one scheme. If so, forks discussion as inScheme and
isDefinedBy go in different directions
Guus: propose we put this on the agenda once we have Ralph's message
Jon: Disagree with some of the decisions we're making.
... But don't have supporting evidence, but things "feel wrong".
Guus: We haven't actually made decisions yet.
Alistair: Jon refers to e.g. decision to deprecate inScheme and use
isDefinedBy instead
Jon: Yes
Alistair: Justification is that copncepts get used in different
schemes.
Guus: Discussion in Amsterdam are that current semantics of
isDefinedBy are the same as inScheme
Alistair: What do we mean by Ralph's interpretation?
... do we simply mean functional?
Guus: Rationale in going from inScheme to isDefinedBy was that
semantics of
... inScheme seemed to be the same as isDefinedBy. So go for a
general non-SKOS solution
Ralph: circular argument. isDefinedBy has such loose semantics, so
such a claim seems unsatisfying
Quote was: isDefinedBy may be used to indicate an rdf vocab in which
a resource is described
Jon: Is a concept scheme the same as an rdf vocabulary?
Guus: If we have evidence from use cases, we simply reopen the
issue.
Jon: It's not whether or not it works, it's about concept scheme ==
rdf vocabulary
Alistair: Made a statement about SKOS concept schemes and OWL
ontologies, but no
... statement about "RDF Vocabularies".
Guus: Is this different because it would allow linking to an OWL
vocabluary rather than a concept scheme
Jon: Wording of isDefinedBy talks about rdf vocabularies.
Antoine: Can see a problem. Original guide says that inScheme is a
link between concept and concept scheme
... scheme it's part of. No requirement that it has to give a
meaning. isDefinedBy we'd expect
... some *definition*
<aliman> From
[19]http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/wiki/SKOS/Reference/ConceptSchemes
...
[19] http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/wiki/SKOS/Reference/
ConceptSchemes
<aliman> "The choice to leave the formal semantics of
skos:ConceptScheme undefined has been made to allow different design
patterns to be explored for using SKOS in combination with more
formal languages such as OWL, and for using SKOS with query
languages such as SPARQL.
<aliman> For example, interpreting skos:ConceptScheme as a sub-class
of owl:Ontology would be consistent with the SKOS semantics. This
would also be consistent with using owl:imports to make logical
import statements between SKOS Concept Schemes.
<aliman> Interpreting skos:ConceptScheme as a sub-class of the class
of named RDF graphs would also be consistent with the SKOS
semantics. This would also be consistent with using the name (URI)
of a SKOS Concept Scheme in SPARQL queries as the name of an RDF
graph, to establish, for example, the provenance of a semantic
relationship between two SKOS Conceptual Resources."
<aliman> Except for the semantic condition stated above, the formal
semantics of skos:ConceptScheme are undefined.
Alistair: talks through definition
... this allows use of owl:imports rather than defining a new import
mechanism
... wanted to find solutions to problems without trying to redefine
or invent our own solutions
Guus: We should reopen the issue regarding inScheme, but not w.r.t.
containment,
... rather the choice of skos:inScheme and rdfs:isDefinedBy
Alistair: Several different flavours of inScheme.
Guus: Solution might be that someone proposes that we leave inScheme
as a subproperty of isDefinedBy
Ralph: Don't see how that helps. What's the range?
... understand the range of isDefinedBy to be RDF vocabulary
(whatever that is)
Guus: And range of inScheme is conceptScheme?
Ralph: Concept scheme doesn't necessarily describe concepts. It's a
grouping of concepts.
Alistair: We never really got into this much detail.
... didn't get into the whether things were defined. Used language
like concepts "participate" ina scheme
Ralph: Where, as a user, should I find a definition for a concept?
Alistair: derefence the URI
Sean: confused now about derefencing URI and isDefinedBy
<Elisa> If it's at all helpful, the "formal" definition of a
"concept system" from ISO 1087 is "a set of concepts structured
according to the relations among them". This doesn't necessarily say
that a concept system is an ontology, but is somewhat stronger than
a simple collection of concepts.
Alistair: If you're using slash namespace, get lots and lots of
redirects.
... if you have an isDefinedBy then you don't need to get it every
time.
Ralph: That's an operational argument. Given a property URI, how do
you find the namespace within which that
... property is defined.
Alistair: Why can't you dereference a property URI?
Ralph: You can. Not clear where in a chain of redirects you
encounter the namespace
... can make some guesses.
Jon: Can somebody explain why we're not defining a concept scheme as
a collection?
... then use rdfs:member
Ralph: Does that satisfy the use cases?
Jon: Not certain.
Alistair: Reason why we might not go there is that some people think
of statements to be part of a concept scheme.
... included that in original wording.
Guus: We have to round up this discussion.
... For OWL ontologies, we never explicitly defined containment.
... Reluctant to open a can of worms. However, we do need to
... continue this discussion. Will someone reopen the issue?
Initially
... on inScheme vs isDefinedBy.
<aliman> It would be great Jon could point to some use cases re.
potential issues with inScheme
ACTION: Antoine to summarise inScheme vs isDefinedBy and decide
whether or not to reopen the issue. [recorded in
[20]http://www.w3.org/2007/10/30-swd-minutes.html#action03]
Guus: For next week would like to discuss Concept Schemes vs OWL
Ontologies.
<Ralph> [likely regrets from me for next week, due to W3C big
meeting week]
ACTION: Alistair and Guus to prepare material for next week on
Concept Schemes vs OWL Ontologies [recorded in
[21]http://www.w3.org/2007/10/30-swd-minutes.html#action04]
Vocabulary Management
Elisa: Vit and Elisa working on editors draft.
Elisa: trying to get front matter in and organise things.
... Have posted an editors draft that pulls together everything from
the wiki
... but didn't pull in stuff from Best Practies WG.
... Have now posted a first editors draft that captures what was in
the wiki, boiler plate things,
... italicised sections for comments.
... Want to go back to original idea for saying what we're going to
talk about here
... is identification of versions rather than version management.
<Ralph> [22]http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/Vocab/principles
[22] http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/Vocab/principles
<Ralph> [23]Vocab Management editors' draft
[23] http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/Vocab/principles
<Ralph> [I will add a citation to that on the WG home page]
Elisa: Additional food for thought in research items. Bottom line is
that there is something up there
... fills in some of the blanks. Worth looking at the outline to see
if there are topics that should be
... addressed but are not, e.g. provenance.
... schedule is to iterate one more time over next couple of weeks
and integrate feedback.
... After that we'll be ready for internal review.
... Need another couple of weeks before internal review.
Guus: telecon next week, no telecon in two weeks.
Meeting adjourned
Summary of Action Items
[NEW] ACTION: Alistair and Guus to prepare material for next week on
Concept Schemes vs OWL Ontologies [recorded in
[24]http://www.w3.org/2007/10/30-swd-minutes.html#action04]
[NEW] ACTION: Antoine to summarise inScheme vs isDefinedBy and
decide whether or not to reopen the issue. [recorded in
[25]http://www.w3.org/2007/10/30-swd-minutes.html#action03]
[NEW] ACTION: Ralph to reconstruct proposal for semantics of
isDefinedBy [recorded in
[26]http://www.w3.org/2007/10/30-swd-minutes.html#action02]
[NEW] ACTION: Ralph to update face to face minutes to reflect the
amendment [recorded in
[27]http://www.w3.org/2007/10/30-swd-minutes.html#action01]
[PENDING] ACTION: Ben to prepare draft implementation report for
RDFa (with assistance from Michael) [recorded in
[28]http://www.w3.org/2007/10/08-swd-minutes.html#action03]
[PENDING] ACTION: Tom to amend proposals to for accepting minimal
relation labels [recorded in
[29]http://www.w3.org/2007/10/23-swd-minutes.html#action12]
[28] http://www.w3.org/2007/10/08-swd-minutes.html#action03
[29] http://www.w3.org/2007/10/23-swd-minutes.html#action12
[PENDING] ACTION: Ben and Michael to address comments by Tom
[regarding maintenance of wiki document
[30]http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/wiki/RDFa] recorded in
[31]http://www.w3.org/2007/10/08-swd-minutes.html#action05]
[PENDING] ACTION: Ben to update RDFa schedule in wiki
[32]http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/wiki/RDFa#RDFa_schedule]
[recorded in
[33]http://www.w3.org/2007/10/08-swd-minutes.html#action04]
[PENDING] ACTION: Dan to ask apache about conditional redirects
[recorded in
[34]http://www.w3.org/2007/10/09-swd-minutes.html#action07]
[PENDING] ACTION: Diego to recast Recipe 6 [recorded in
[35]http://www.w3.org/2007/10/09-swd-minutes.html#action02]
[PENDING] ACTION: Guus to post user experience reports for ISSUE-25
[recorded in
[36]http://www.w3.org/2007/07/03-swd-minutes.html#action05]
[PENDING] ACTION: Guus/Tom to propose joint decisions for reviews
for major [RDFa] steps/transition requests. Informal agreement about
working drafts. [recorded in
[37]http://www.w3.org/2007/10/08-swd-minutes.html#action02]
[PENDING] ACTION: Guus/Tom to solicit reviewers for the Recipes
document. [recorded in
[38]http://www.w3.org/2007/10/09-swd-minutes.html#action08]
[PENDING] ACTION: Jon to add words that acknowledge the existence of
RDFa as potential mechanisms, but it's out of scope here. [recorded
in [39]http://www.w3.org/2007/10/09-swd-minutes.html#action06]
[PENDING] ACTION: Jon to make changes as proposed [with regard to
Issue-23] [recorded in
[40]http://www.w3.org/2007/10/09-swd-minutes.html#action05]
[PENDING] ACTION: Ralph propose resolution to ISSUE-16 "Default
behavior" [recorded in
[41]http://www.w3.org/2007/01/22-swd-minutes.html#action14]
[PENDING] ACTION: Guus to write up the issue [of Label Resource] and
add to the issue list. [recorded in
[42]http://www.w3.org/2007/10/09-swd-minutes.html#action01]
[PENDING] ACTION: Alistair to update semantics document to listing
ways in which SKOS diverges from OWL DL [recorded in
[43]http://www.w3.org/2007/10/08-swd-minutes.html#action06]
[PENDING] ACTION: Ralph to come up with a URI for wiki page [for
Recipes implementations] [recorded in
[44]http://www.w3.org/2007/10/09-swd-minutes.html#action04]
[PENDING] ACTION: Ralph/Diego to work on Wordnet implementation [of
Recipes] [recorded in
[45]http://www.w3.org/2007/10/09-swd-minutes.html#action03]
[PENDING] ACTION: TF leaders to prepare a version of Recipes for
review in December [recorded in
[46]http://www.w3.org/2007/10/09-swd-minutes.html#action09]
[PENDING] ACTION: Vit and Elisa to include in the document all the
target sections plus an allocation of sections to people and
potentially a standard structure for sections [recorded in
[47]http://www.w3.org/2007/10/08-swd-minutes.html#action07]
[30] http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/wiki/RDFa
[31] http://www.w3.org/2007/10/08-swd-minutes.html#action05
[32] http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/wiki/RDFa#RDFa_schedule
[33] http://www.w3.org/2007/10/08-swd-minutes.html#action04
[34] http://www.w3.org/2007/10/09-swd-minutes.html#action07
[35] http://www.w3.org/2007/10/09-swd-minutes.html#action02
[36] http://www.w3.org/2007/07/03-swd-minutes.html#action05
[37] http://www.w3.org/2007/10/08-swd-minutes.html#action02
[38] http://www.w3.org/2007/10/09-swd-minutes.html#action08
[39] http://www.w3.org/2007/10/09-swd-minutes.html#action06
[40] http://www.w3.org/2007/10/09-swd-minutes.html#action05
[41] http://www.w3.org/2007/01/22-swd-minutes.html#action14
[42] http://www.w3.org/2007/10/09-swd-minutes.html#action01
[43] http://www.w3.org/2007/10/08-swd-minutes.html#action06
[44] http://www.w3.org/2007/10/09-swd-minutes.html#action04
[45] http://www.w3.org/2007/10/09-swd-minutes.html#action03
[46] http://www.w3.org/2007/10/09-swd-minutes.html#action09
[47] http://www.w3.org/2007/10/08-swd-minutes.html#action07
[DONE] ACTION: Antoine to formulate 3 resolutions for Amsterdam
topic Concept Semantics posted to the list. as a basis for amending
meeting record. [recorded in
[48]http://www.w3.org/2007/10/23-swd-minutes.html#action11]
[DONE] ACTION: Antoine to list decisions made about concept scheme
[recorded in
[49]http://www.w3.org/2007/10/23-swd-minutes.html#action13]
[DONE] ACTION: Guus to post an interpretation of the Amsterdam
discussion of isDefinedBy [recorded in
[50]http://www.w3.org/2007/10/23-swd-minutes.html#action14]
[48] http://www.w3.org/2007/10/23-swd-minutes.html#action11
[49] http://www.w3.org/2007/10/23-swd-minutes.html#action13
[50] http://www.w3.org/2007/10/23-swd-minutes.html#action14
[End of minutes]
_________________________________________________________
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--
Sean Bechhofer
School of Computer Science
University of Manchester
sean.bechhofer@manchester.ac.uk
http://www.cs.manchester.ac.uk/people/bechhofer
Received on Wednesday, 31 October 2007 11:16:38 UTC