- From: Bernard Horan <Bernard.Horan@sun.com>
- Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 09:17:54 +0100
- To: public-swd-wg@w3.org
The [1] record of this week's SemWeb Deployment WG telecon is ready for
review.
A text copy follows below.
[1] http://www.w3.org/2007/05/22-swd-minutes
Topics
1. Admin
2. SKOS
Summary of Action Items
[NEW] ACTION: Alistair to propose minimal fix for resolution of
issue 33 [recorded in
[25]http://www.w3.org/2007/05/22-swd-minutes.html#action09]
[NEW] ACTION: chairs to open issue 31 [recorded in
[26]http://www.w3.org/2007/05/22-swd-minutes.html#action07]
[NEW] ACTION: open issue 31 in tracker for discussion next week
[recorded in
[27]http://www.w3.org/2007/05/22-swd-minutes.html#action08]
[25] http://www.w3.org/2007/05/22-swd-minutes.html#action09
[26] http://www.w3.org/2007/05/22-swd-minutes.html#action07
[27] http://www.w3.org/2007/05/22-swd-minutes.html#action08
[PENDING] ACTION: Alistair will look at raising the examples from
the issues to test cases [recorded in
[28]http://www.w3.org/2007/05/15-swd-minutes.html#action06]
[PENDING] ACTION: Elisa to provide outline of work to be done by Apr
17 [recorded in
[29]http://www.w3.org/2007/04/24-swd-minutes.html#action11]
[PENDING] ACTION: Guus revise his ISSUE-26 proposal to account for
other options [recorded in
[30]http://www.w3.org/2007/04/24-swd-minutes.html#action07]
[PENDING] ACTION: Jon and Alistair: Move SKOS issues over from
Sandbox to Tracker on an ongoing basis [recorded in
[31]http://www.w3.org/2007/05/08-swd-minutes.html#action10]
[PENDING] ACTION: Ralph propose resolution to Recipe issue 1.3
[recorded in
[32]http://www.w3.org/2007/04/24-swd-minutes.html#action09]
[PENDING] ACTION: Sean to look at the test environment supporting
the SKOS semantics [recorded in
[33]http://www.w3.org/2007/05/15-swd-minutes.html#action05]
[28] http://www.w3.org/2007/05/15-swd-minutes.html#action06
[29] http://www.w3.org/2007/04/24-swd-minutes.html#action11
[30] http://www.w3.org/2007/04/24-swd-minutes.html#action07
[31] http://www.w3.org/2007/05/08-swd-minutes.html#action10
[32] http://www.w3.org/2007/04/24-swd-minutes.html#action09
[33] http://www.w3.org/2007/05/15-swd-minutes.html#action05
[DONE] ACTION: Daniel to send messages to thesaurus list, Semantic
Web Interest, ... requesting feedback on the new SKOS use cases
document [recorded in
[34]http://www.w3.org/2007/05/15-swd-minutes.html#action01]
[DONE] ACTION: TomB to start questionnaire on date for f2f --
options are weeks of Nov 4 and Nov 11 [recorded in
[35]http://www.w3.org/2007/05/22-swd-minutes.html#action01]
[34] http://www.w3.org/2007/05/15-swd-minutes.html#action01
[35] http://www.w3.org/2007/05/22-swd-minutes.html#action01
The next telecon is scheduled for Tuesday, 29th May 2007.
Bernard
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
[1]W3C
[1] http://www.w3.org/
SWD WG
22 May 2007
[2]Agenda
[2]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2007May/0033.html
See also: [3]IRC log
[3] http://www.w3.org/2007/05/22-swd-irc
Attendees
Present
Bern, berrueta, aliman, TomB, Vit, antoine, Daniel,
+31.20.420.aabb
Regrets
Sean, Ralph, Jon, Michael
Chair
Tom
Scribe
Bern
Contents
* [4]Topics
1. [5]admin
2. [6]SKOS
* [7]Summary of Action Items
_________________________________________________________
admin
TomB: propose we accept minutes of 15th May telecon
... been through minutes and look OK to me
Resolved: accept minutes of 15th May meeting
<TomB> [8]http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/39408/f2f3poll1/
[8] http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/39408/f2f3poll1/
<scribe> ACTION: TomB to start questionnaire on date for f2f --
options are weeks of Nov 4 and Nov 11 [DONE] [recorded in
[9]http://www.w3.org/2007/05/22-swd-minutes.html#action01]
[9] http://www.w3.org/2007/05/22-swd-minutes.html#action01
SKOS
<TomB> ACTION: Daniel to send messages to thesaurus list, Semantic
Web Interest, ... requesting feedback on the new SKOS use cases
document [recorded in
[10]http://www.w3.org/2007/05/15-swd-minutes.html#action01] [DONE]
[10] http://www.w3.org/2007/05/15-swd-minutes.html#action01
<TomB> ACTION: Jon and Alistair: Move SKOS issues over from Sandbox
to Tracker on an ongoing basis [recorded in
[11]http://www.w3.org/2007/05/08-swd-minutes.html#action10]
[CONTINUES]
[11] http://www.w3.org/2007/05/08-swd-minutes.html#action10
<TomB> ACTION: Sean to look at the test environment supporting the
SKOS semantics [recorded in
[12]http://www.w3.org/2007/05/15-swd-minutes.html#action05]
[CONTINUES]
[12] http://www.w3.org/2007/05/15-swd-minutes.html#action05
<TomB> ACTION: Alistair will look at raising the examples from the
issues to test cases [recorded in
[13]http://www.w3.org/2007/05/15-swd-minutes.html#action06]
[CONTINUES]
[13] http://www.w3.org/2007/05/15-swd-minutes.html#action06
<TomB> ACTION: Guus revise his ISSUE-26 proposal to account for
other options [recorded in
[14]http://www.w3.org/2007/04/24-swd-minutes.html#action07]
[CONTINUES]
[14] http://www.w3.org/2007/04/24-swd-minutes.html#action07
TomB: was talking with Guus just before the meeting and expects to
see output from Guus in next few days wrt ISSUE-26 proposal
<TomB> [15]http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/track/issues/31
[15] http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/track/issues/31
TomB: Alistair suggests we open basic lexical label sematics at same
time as issue 26
<scribe> ACTION: chairs to open issue 31 [recorded in
[16]http://www.w3.org/2007/05/22-swd-minutes.html#action07]
[16] http://www.w3.org/2007/05/22-swd-minutes.html#action07
Alistair: doesn't this issue need an owner?
... meant to have its status as open, so that it's on the agenda
TomB: asks for volunteer to have owner of the issue?
Alistair: I'm willing if no one is desperately keen
TomB: are there any other steps that need to be taken?
Alistair: change the status in the tracker
... I'll do that
<scribe> ACTION: open issue 31 in tracker for discussion next week
[recorded in
[17]http://www.w3.org/2007/05/22-swd-minutes.html#action08]
[17] http://www.w3.org/2007/05/22-swd-minutes.html#action08
TomB: issue 33--grouping constructs
<aliman> --done
TomB: we had discussion last week, but now a 3rd proposal from
Antoine
... goal of discussion today is to see if we have a rough concensus
so that we can move towards having a proposal
... to vote on in next week's call. Guus felt that we should try to
move this forward
... to some sort of resolution.
... calls on Antoine to put forward proposal 3.
Antoine: my proposal was based on the diagnosis that the issue comes
from
... the fact that two axioms are contradictory
... I suggested to release the axioms that define the domain and
range of the relationships
... and to introduce a new class that would be a superclass of
concept and collection
Bernard: familiar object-oriented pattern from gang of four. (e.g.
common pattern in widgetry) called composite pattern ... sub-class
which is also a component and a collection of components ...
<aliman>
[18]http://www.exciton.cs.rice.edu/JavaResources/DesignPatterns/comp
osite.htm
[18]
http://www.exciton.cs.rice.edu/JavaResources/DesignPatterns/composite.htm
Alistair: number of issues with this proposal wrt semantic
relationships
... in the current guide there's a rule called "collectable
properties" which was supposed to
... enable your to infer the direct semantic relationships
... other issues are that if you are doing query expansion, when you
have
... a collection that has a node in the expansion graph, so you can
artificially include
<TomB> [collectable properties
[19]http://www.w3.org/TR/swbp-skos-core-guide/#seccollectable]
[19] http://www.w3.org/TR/swbp-skos-core-guide/#seccollectable
Alistair: extra distance between the concepts
... also you couldn't write an application that has no knowledge of
collections
... every application would have to have knowledge of collections
... different to minimal fixed proposal, which means you don't need
any inference rule
... and doesn't need any knowledge of collections
Bernard: what's significance of not knowing about collections?
Alistair: really simple query expansion doesn't need any collection
stuff but guaranteed to work
... with SKOS data
... For example, if you take a look at the NSDL metadata repository,
there is no
... collection stuff, but it is nevertheless a very useful platform.
If we went for
... Antoine's proposal then an application like that would have to
implement the collection
... stuff--it wouldn't work without it.
TomB: in W3C practice the proposal that has the least impact on an
existing spec is the one that gets favoured
... In last week's discussion it seemed to me that we were leaning
towards the
... minimal fixed proposal. Does anyone want to add to that?
Alistair: I agree with what Guus said. I like the minimal fixed
proposal because it does
... the smallest fix and takes an incremental approach. We can take
the approach
... and then explore issues with it. If there's a problem with it,
then we can take a look
... at other proposals (such as the relaxing domain/range or the
Bundle)
<TomB> +1 Alistair and Guus favoring Minimal Fix
Antoine: my worry is that in most of the situations where we have
seen collections
... the collections are included in the hierarchy.
Alistair: there's a difference between a conceptual hierarchy and a
systematic display
... the latter is a visual arrangement of terms, not really part of
what standards people ... would call a conceptual hierarchy.
... node labels are introduced as a display convenience.
... In the minimal fixed proposal, let's say you're generating a
systematic display
... such as kinds of milk. In a minimal fix, you declare a concept
of milk, then goat's
... milk, cow's milk and express narrower terms between them. Then
itroducce a collection
... say "milk by source animal". An application that gets that data
can ignore the
... collection data and just display the relationships between kinds
of milk.
... whereas an application that understands collections can ask if
(say) cow's milk
... a member of any collections?
... and then recurse upwards, to see if the "milk by source animal"
collection is also in a collection?
Daniel: I'm confused by what's asserted by collection membership and
the siblings of a taxonomy
Alistair: collections are not just siblings. You could have "milk by
source animal", and "milk by fat content"
... if you're actually thinking about classes, then "milk by source
animal" is not really a class.
... in the thesaurus community, "milk by source animal" is not a
concept, it's a node label
Daniel: but the ontology community wouldn't use this approach.
Alistair: the dependency of how we model this and how we migrate
from thesaurus to ontologies
... the primary concern for SKOS is to make sure that it is
sufficient to represent thesauri and classification schemes
... so that existing thesauri and classification schemes can
continue to have the features
... they're used to.
Daniel: we also have to do the same from an ontology-oriented
perspective
Alistair: I am aware of Antoine's point about the difficulty of
implementing the algorithm
... I explain the algorithm to follow the narrower links, then
recursive collection-membership relationships
... there's another standardisation group (in the UK) that's trying
to write down a data model (in UML) for thesauri
... this group is having a big discussion about you handle
collections (aka Arrays)
Daniel: anticipate resolution from this group?
Alistair: they're influenced by how SKOS does it.
... they're not hardcore data modellers.
... we'd have to present it in UML for them to understand.
Daniel: that might be useful for us to present it anyhow.
Alistair: because the UK group is doing it as a closed group it's
not that public
Daniel: so it presents some interesting questions about how to map
from SKOS to their data model
Alistair: I made a suggestion. Here's the link
<aliman> [20]http://isegserv.itd.rl.ac.uk/blogs/alistair/archives/41
-> Initial suggestion of data model for thesauri for BS8723
[20] http://isegserv.itd.rl.ac.uk/blogs/alistair/archives/41
Alistair: the idea that I had was that we go with the minimal fixed
proposal for now
... which forces me to expand on the algorithm
<TomB> +1 to go with Minimal Fix
Alistair: and if it's too complicated then we can change our minds.
It's not the final word.
TomB: does anyone disagree with minimal fix?
Daniel: concern that we also need to address from ontology world
Alistair: need use cases to understand this better
TomB: sounds like we're moving to minimal fix with reservation that
we need to understand
... how ontologies map to thesauri.
... so could we put minimal fix on agenda for next week.
Alistair: yes, then we could resolve or not next week
<scribe> ACTION: Alistair to propose minimal fix for resolution of
issue 33 [recorded in
[21]http://www.w3.org/2007/05/22-swd-minutes.html#action09]
[21] http://www.w3.org/2007/05/22-swd-minutes.html#action09
TomB: to be talked about next week
... propose SKOS issue resolution process to next week
<TomB> [22]http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/wiki/IssuesProcess
[22] http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/wiki/IssuesProcess
TomB: also want to make sure that the document on the issues process
actually corrresponds to the way we are doing things
... find it slightly confusing about how to see issues that are
closed
<Antoine> ... beware of not losing it!
<scribe> ACTION: Ralph propose resolution to Recipe issue 1.3
[recorded in
[23]http://www.w3.org/2007/04/24-swd-minutes.html#action09]
[CONTINUES]
[23] http://www.w3.org/2007/04/24-swd-minutes.html#action09
<scribe> ACTION: Elisa to provide outline of work to be done by Apr
17 [recorded in
[24]http://www.w3.org/2007/04/24-swd-minutes.html#action11]
[CONTINUES]
[24] http://www.w3.org/2007/04/24-swd-minutes.html#action11
Meeting adjourned
Summary of Action Items
[NEW] ACTION: Alistair to propose minimal fix for resolution of
issue 33 [recorded in
[25]http://www.w3.org/2007/05/22-swd-minutes.html#action09]
[NEW] ACTION: chairs to open issue 31 [recorded in
[26]http://www.w3.org/2007/05/22-swd-minutes.html#action07]
[NEW] ACTION: open issue 31 in tracker for discussion next week
[recorded in
[27]http://www.w3.org/2007/05/22-swd-minutes.html#action08]
[25] http://www.w3.org/2007/05/22-swd-minutes.html#action09
[26] http://www.w3.org/2007/05/22-swd-minutes.html#action07
[27] http://www.w3.org/2007/05/22-swd-minutes.html#action08
[PENDING] ACTION: Alistair will look at raising the examples from
the issues to test cases [recorded in
[28]http://www.w3.org/2007/05/15-swd-minutes.html#action06]
[PENDING] ACTION: Elisa to provide outline of work to be done by Apr
17 [recorded in
[29]http://www.w3.org/2007/04/24-swd-minutes.html#action11]
[PENDING] ACTION: Guus revise his ISSUE-26 proposal to account for
other options [recorded in
[30]http://www.w3.org/2007/04/24-swd-minutes.html#action07]
[PENDING] ACTION: Jon and Alistair: Move SKOS issues over from
Sandbox to Tracker on an ongoing basis [recorded in
[31]http://www.w3.org/2007/05/08-swd-minutes.html#action10]
[PENDING] ACTION: Ralph propose resolution to Recipe issue 1.3
[recorded in
[32]http://www.w3.org/2007/04/24-swd-minutes.html#action09]
[PENDING] ACTION: Sean to look at the test environment supporting
the SKOS semantics [recorded in
[33]http://www.w3.org/2007/05/15-swd-minutes.html#action05]
[28] http://www.w3.org/2007/05/15-swd-minutes.html#action06
[29] http://www.w3.org/2007/04/24-swd-minutes.html#action11
[30] http://www.w3.org/2007/04/24-swd-minutes.html#action07
[31] http://www.w3.org/2007/05/08-swd-minutes.html#action10
[32] http://www.w3.org/2007/04/24-swd-minutes.html#action09
[33] http://www.w3.org/2007/05/15-swd-minutes.html#action05
[DONE] ACTION: Daniel to send messages to thesaurus list, Semantic
Web Interest, ... requesting feedback on the new SKOS use cases
document [recorded in
[34]http://www.w3.org/2007/05/15-swd-minutes.html#action01]
[DONE] ACTION: TomB to start questionnaire on date for f2f --
options are weeks of Nov 4 and Nov 11 [recorded in
[35]http://www.w3.org/2007/05/22-swd-minutes.html#action01]
[34] http://www.w3.org/2007/05/15-swd-minutes.html#action01
[35] http://www.w3.org/2007/05/22-swd-minutes.html#action01
[End of minutes]
_________________________________________________________
Received on Thursday, 24 May 2007 08:18:15 UTC