- From: Lynn, James (Software Services) <james.lynn@hp.com>
- Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 16:57:27 -0400
- To: "Jim Hendler" <hendler@cs.umd.edu>, "John Black" <JohnBlack@deltek.com>, "Pat Hayes" <phayes@ihmc.us>
- Cc: "Sandro Hawke" <sandro@w3.org>, "Peter F. Patel-Schneider" <pfps@research.bell-labs.com>, <public-sw-meaning@w3.org>
Thanks, this makes everything clear (for the moment). It occurs to me that the "legal commitment" is part of a context which may lie outside of RDF or OWL - perhaps, for example, it's a WSDL issue. James > -----Original Message----- > From: Jim Hendler [mailto:hendler@cs.umd.edu] > Sent: Thursday, June 17, 2004 10:58 PM > To: Lynn, James (Software Services); John Black; Pat Hayes > Cc: Sandro Hawke; Peter F. Patel-Schneider; public-sw-meaning@w3.org > Subject: RE: No Standard Semantic Web Pragmatics? > > > At 13:41 -0400 6/17/04, Lynn, James (Software Services) wrote: > >Jim, > > > >Just to make sure I understand your position regarding this, can you > >tell me or give an example of how I would know, or even be > >relatively sure, whether someone is making an observation about a > >statement or accepting that statment in what some might call a > >legally binding manner. The statement "I agree with these terms and > >conditions" comes to mind, but use your own example if you wish? > >Does this statement enter into a legal contract? Is this simply a > >matter of using the correct definition of the word "agree" as in > >legally_binding:agree vs. myopinion: agree? > > > >Thanks, > > > >James Lynn > > > James - there are times when saying that does indeed cause me to > enter a contract, but there's times it doesn't -- and the words > themselves (separate from the social context they appear in) can > never tell me which it is. So I just don't believe we can create a > "syntactic" way to tell these things apart -- given that, what is a > different choice? It's kind of a "client decide" mode -- i.e. a > search engine may not care, a legal aid agent will try to determine, > a contracting agent will insist that some extra stuff, outside the > simple context (i.e. something more than "is it on the page" -- maybe > something like "is it on the page in a form that matches a previous > agreement of how such legally binding pages will be represented and > containing a trusted key signed by one of the people i have > previously negotiated my online contracting with or authorized to > serve as an authorization proxy for me" ) Strangely, experience > would seem to show that in some ways these more complex things are > actually "simpler" in a certain sense. That is, the phrase "I do" > doesn't commit you to a legal contract outside of the context of > being in response to a certain question asked by someone who has been > certified by a legal authority (usualy the State) to represent them > in this kind of contracting - which makes it a lot easier to tell a > real marriage from a couple of kids fooling around on the sandlot -- > okay, so what has this got to do with the Sem Web? Well, I guess I > would like to see a situation something like "If I produce a semantic > web document (or any variant thereof that is parsable), and place it > on the Semantic Web, you are entitled to believe I has created those > triples on the Semantic Web, and nothing more." If, based on some > other, non SW context, or some prearranged or authorized other > context there is an expected social agreement, than I should make > that clear in a human readable form, or in a form for which some body > with "social clout" has determined should have a greater meeting > (for example a Creative Commons license). Thus, I'd argue that a > Creative Commons license becomes meaningful by dint of being a CC > license (and there being a recongizable way to tell), not by dint of > being some random triples in RDF. > Now, all that said, I would argue that some minimal levels of > agreements could produce the necessary 80% needed for this thing to > grow and thrive (Since very few sites will need the RDF to be > "legally binding" in any sense). So, for example, I would like to > see something that says (better than this) that if I create a > document that uses a relation defined on another document (and named > via a URI), then it is expected that the named document is > dereferencible if the document uses RDFS or OWL terminology and, I > would probably be willing to consider the things implied by that > document (under the RDFS and OWL semantics) to be the same as above > (i.e. that you are entitled to believe that I am pointing at a > document containing those triples and nothing more barring social > agreement) > So, what do I think is our job? Identifying some of these minimal > social conventions that will help make this work better. What do I > want us to avoid? Arguing philosophical issues about "meaning" and > "intent" which have no impact and don't bring us forward in any way > -JH > > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: public-sw-meaning-request@w3.org > >> [mailto:public-sw-meaning-request@w3.org]On Behalf Of Jim Hendler > >> Sent: Thursday, June 17, 2004 1:29 PM > >> To: John Black; Pat Hayes > >> Cc: Sandro Hawke; Peter F. Patel-Schneider; > public-sw-meaning@w3.org > >> Subject: RE: No Standard Semantic Web Pragmatics? > >> > >> > >> > >> John - somehow in all this mess below you've missed my > key point -- I > >> don't care whether putting something in RDF counts as > asserting it or > >> not -- here, let me try this: > >> > >> > >> Hendler's postulate: Creating content on the Web in an > RDF document, > >> or equivalent graph store, is exactly equivalent in terms > of speech > >> act theory to creating content on the web in HTNL, XHTML > or any other > >> machine readable format. > >> > >> There, now based on Hendler's postulate, I can ignore 90% of the > >> discussion on this list -- it's that other 10% which > seems to me to > >> get past the philosophical nonsense and get to what I > care about -- > >> is there some way I can use pointers in one document to > pointers in > >> another, coupled with various tools (including inference and > >> reasoning engines) to exploit the content placed there in > some useful > >> way, perhaps with a set of social conventions that work > most of the > >> time without being driven to uselessness if some pathological use > >> occurs (like someone claiming to be a divine being) > >> > >> To put it another way, I would like the speech act stuff > to be up to > >> the client to determine in whatever idiosyncratic way it > wishes, but > >> we could have some social conventions that make that > easier, and are > >> usually useful. > >> -JH > >> p.s. I wanted to rename this to break the thread into separable > >> pieces, but Icouldn't actually come up with a better name... > >> > >> > >> > >> At 11:38 -0400 6/17/04, John Black wrote: > >> >>From: Jim Hendler > >> >>Sent: Wednesday, June 16, 2004 5:59 PM > >> > > >> >>At 9:43 -0400 6/16/04, John Black wrote: > >> >>>> From: Jim Hendler > >> >>>> Sent: Monday, June 14, 2004 7:07 PM > >> >>>> > >> >>>> >>However, another key idea grew about the same time -- > >> as long as we > >> >>>> >>are using URIs, we could make those URIs > >> dereferencable -- that is, > >> >>>> >>we could look and see if there is a document > there, and if so, > >> >>>> >>perhaps that document could describe the link -- > RDFS and OWL > >> >>>> >>provide vocabularies that live at those links and provide > >> >>>> >>information about the "intent" of those relationships. > >> >>>> > > >> >>>> >No, that is exactly what they do not provide. That is > >> John's point: > >> >>>> >there is a gap here precisely because the SW notations > >> only express > >> >>>> >CONTENT, they do not express INTENTION. The stuff about > >> >>>> >performatives in the paper I helped write was intended > >> to be a step > >> >>>> >towards bridging this gap, since performatives in > >> natural language > >> >>>> >are exactly where an intention is expressed > >> unambiguously by stating > >> >>>> >- describing - the intention. If enough people say > >> that Jack and > >> >>>> >Jill are married, in the right way and under the right > >> >>>> >circumstances, then they are married. If I say "I > >> promise to buy you > >> >>>> >lunch" then an actual promise got created: I performed > >> a social act > >> >>>> >by saying that I was performing it. Very handy, that > >> is: it gets you > >> >>>> >from mere descriptions (which we indubitably have in > >> RDF and OWL) to > >> >>>> >actual intentional actions: it gets assertings > >> (denials, explicit > >> >>>> >non-assertings, endorsements, whatever) actually > done, and in a > >> >>>> >publicly checkable way rather than being left implicit. > >> >>>> > >> >>>> Ah, right right right -- I knew you logician types have > >> this bug up > >> >>>> your butts about "intent" -- and that is why I put > it in scare > >> >>>> quotes, but I should have made it even clear i was > >> using the term in > >> >>>> an informal and not a technical sense -- however, that > >> said,I think > >> >>>> it is this hangup with "intent" somehow being a > >> mysterious thing that > >> >>>> is largely to blame for our lack of progress on this > >> social meaning > >> >>>> stuff > >> >>> > >> >>>Could you please elaborate on this attribution of blame to > >> "this hang-up > >> >>>with 'intent'"? I'm really curious about this. Since it is > >> my intention > >> >>>to achieve progress on this issue, I don't want to > stumble into a > >> >>>position where I am to blame for the lack of it. (You > >> could leave out > >> >>>the scatological ad hominem attacks and slurs against > professional > >> >>>groups unless you think that is critical to your point) > >> >> > >> >> > >> >>the ad hominen attacks aren't crucial, but the email gets > >> really boring > >> >>without them... > >> >> > >> >>>> Consider, if you go to my HTML web page you will see a > >> link to a page > >> >>>> that has pictures of my daughter. You have no way to > >> know what my > >> >>>> intent was in putting them there -- you can guess at some > >> >>>> possibilities (wrong, I was not trying to raise the > >> price that would > >> >>>> be offered for her on the black market) but you can't > >> know what I had > >> >>>> in mind. If I had labeled those photos in RDF, OWL, or > >> KIF there is > >> >>>> no reason why I would have told you one whit more about > >> my intent -- > >> >>>> I might have made it unambiguous that I was averring > >> that the person > >> >>>> depicted in the photograph was one with whom I had > the familiar > >> >>>> relationship of type daughter -- but you still > wouldn't have any > >> >>>> intent behind it. > >> >>> > >> >>>Well to the extent that I don't know what your intent was > >> you didn't > >> >>>communicate. There is nothing wrong with that. Its > sounds like what > >> >>>you intended. I can still view the pictures. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >>the point is you can view the pictures with no idea of why > >> I put them > >> >>there - which is what I was after > >> > > >> >But that supports my point, the web is used for many > good things that > >> >have nothing to do with assertion of truth values, so it is > >> false that > >> >every page asserts the truth functional propositional value > >> of its content. > >> >Say now you want to post some RDF and assert it. How do > I know the > >> >difference? Suppose your intent, whatever that was, in > >> posting this RDF > >> >page, was the same as it was for your daughters > pictures? Could be, > >> >right? You don't say so I can't tell. There seems to be an > >> unspecified > >> >assumption that, when it matters, when you do want to assert > >> your RDF, > >> >it will somehow be obvious. Now who is depending on telepathic > >> >transmission of intention? > >> > > >> >>> > >> >>>But I disagree with you that I cannot recognize your > intent if you > >> >>>take pains to communicate it to me. Nor am I talking about any > >> >>>mysterious supernatural mind-melding, telepathy, or otherwise > >> >>>peering into the interiority of your consciousness. No, I am > >> >>>talking about one of the most extraordinary properties of human > >> >>>communication, "...If I am trying to tell someone > something, then > >> >>>(assuming certain conditions are satisfied) as soon as he > >> recognizes > >> >>>that I am trying to tell him something and exactly > what it is I am > >> >>>trying to tell him, I have succeeded in telling it to him. > >> Furthermore, > >> >>>unless he recognizes that I am trying to tell him > >> something and what > >> >>>I am trying to tell him, I do not fully succeed in telling > >> it to him." > >> >>>-John R. Searle, Speech Acts, p.47 > >> >> > >> >> > >> >>I'll work off of this, although I should mention that early > >> in my career > >> >>I wrote several things (published in long lost workshop > >> proceedings I > >> >>suspect) that argued with the above - Searle's stuff > >> ignored some pragmatic > >> >>issues IMHO -- in particular, the last sentence of the > >> above is one I > >> >>disagree with - but it's not really germane to this > discussion... > >> >> > >> >>> > >> >>>And again using "intention" explicitly, "In speaking I > attempt to > >> >>>communicate certain things to my hearer by getting him > to recognize > >> >>>my intention to communicate just those things. I achieve > >> the intended > >> >>>effect on the hearer by getting him to recognize my > intention to > >> >>>achieve that effect, and as soon as the hearer recognizes > >> what it is > >> >>>my intention to achieve, it is in general achieved. He > understands > >> >>>what I am saying as soon as he recognizes my intention > in uttering > >> >>>what I utter as an intention to say that thing." > >> >>>-John R. Searle, Speech Acts, p.43 > >> >>> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >>again, can't you understand what is on my web page in > ways I may not > >> >>have anticipated without knowing what my intent was on > putting them > >> >>there? > >> > > >> >Of course I can. I compare it to this. I like to take my 4 > >> year old son > >> >to the mall so he can play in the playground. While there, I > >> like to watch > >> >people. Being a portrait artist in a previous career, I like > >> to observe > >> >the behavior and faces of the people I see. I observe them > >> talking and > >> >gesturing to each other. They are not communicating with me, > >> and that's fine. > >> >And the web can be used for other acts besides communication > >> as well, and > >> >I can go on line and watch people engage in web posting acts > >> and learn > >> >things from it and so on. What I'm getting at is, when do I > >> know to start > >> >treating RDF posting as an assertion of the propositions it > >> contains? How > >> >am I supposed to know what counts as a speech act and not > >> just another > >> >web posting act? > >> > > >> >I believe you are arguing my position. So tell Sandro and > >> Peter and Dan > >> >that posting something on the web is not by default a truth > >> functional > >> >assertion. Sometimes its just posting behavior. Who > knows what for. > >> >And I can come closer to Sandro's position here. I can > observe your > >> >RDF-posting behavior as well, without taking it to count as > >> communication, > >> >or even knowing if it should. I can even analyze or > reason with the > >> >propositions contained in the artifacts of your > RDF-posting behavior > >> >without taking them to count as yours or anyone's > statements for that > >> >matter. Now I am really close to Sandro's position. But my > >> point is that > >> >I can't take that last step, of knowing that now, these > propositions > >> >do count as a communication of the assertion of the > >> propositions of that > >> >RDF by a certain person. And when it matters, it matters. If it > >> >doesn't matter, it doesn't matter - and I don't care either. > >> > > >> >And I think that there should be a simple, easy, standard, out of > >> >the box way to make that intention clear. > >> > > >> >However, your argument below, which I will take the liberty of > >> >paraphrasing as 'do it with code for now and maybe we can make it > >> >declarative later', which, if that's what your saying, at least > >> >acknowledges that there may be something here that needs > to be done. > >> >So I'll stop for now and go back to writing code - lots and lots > >> >of it - and hope that my code works together with everyone elses. > >> > > >> >>It's unclear to me how much Searle's Speech Act theory really > >> >>relates to human interaction on the Web (let alone agent > >> interaction) > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >>> So if we simply can argue w/respect to what the links > >> state (in the > >> >>> factual sense) and attribute their ownership based on > >> where they are > >> >>> asserted (oops, I mean where the bit stream defining > >> them is found - > >> >>> since assertion is another bug up the arse) - then > >> perhaps we could > >> >>> have made some useful progress on stating "what's in a link" > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> >>And technically, that is the heart of the Semantic Web > >> architecture > >> >>> >>- links that can be named and described more formally. > >> >>> >> > >> >>> >>IMO, the social meaning issue arises from the fact > that we have > >> >>> >>both referencing and dereferecing going on. When > links share a > >> >>> >>URI, and there's no document at that URI to > >> dereference, then it is > >> >>> >>clear that any meaning of that term is in some > sort of off-line > >> >>> >>"Social" conventions between the users thereof. > >> However, when we > >> >>> >>add the dereferencing it becomes trickier -- because > >> now we have to > >> >>> >>ask if use of the term in some way "commits" to > what is in the > >> >>> >>dereferencing document, if the owner of that document > >> controls the > >> >>> >>use of the term, etc. > >> >>> >> > >> >>> >>There's lots of other "social meaning" issues on the > >> Semantic Web, > >> >>> >>and the threads on this list talk about many of > them, but in my > >> >>> >>mind the key ones are those that arise from the > issue of the > >> >>> >>relation between the named terms and the documents > >> that describe, > >> >>> >>in some formal way, the use of those terms > >> >>> > > >> >>> >Well, yes, but (IMO) only because such dereferencing is > >> the only way > >> >>> >to establish any kind of link between a URI and > >> anything that can be > >> >>> >plausibly attributed agency. In order for a promise > (etc) to be > >> >>> >done, there has to be an agent doing the promising. > >> Similarly for > >> >>> >asserting, denying, etc. . Without agents (and I > really do mean > >> >>> >SOCIAL agents, not software agents) in the picture, all > >> we have is > >> >>> >sentences being looked at: nothing is asserted at all. > >> >> > >> >>>And I would add, defining and naming. Unless we also > have an agent > >> >>>acting with the intent and authority to define or > name, all we have > >> >>>is even more sentences. Without it, we are stuck in a > room with a > >> >>>Chinese/Chinese dictionary, trying to ground our symbols in an > >> >>>endless series of more symbols. I really think this may be the > >> >>>Grand Synthesis I predicted in our last telecon. We have > >> been thinking > >> >>>of URI dereferencing as being a means of adding in more formal> > >> >>>propositions and descriptions to our groundless lists. Instead, > >> >>>URI dereferencing could be the source of AGENCY, INTENTION, AND > >> >>>AUTHORITY that really could be the basis of an automated > >> communication > >> >>>system with reasoning. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >>the ad hominen attacks above were largely aimed at the > stuff you are > >> >>quoting now, and thus I will not respond - if I can't say > >> something nice > >> >>about Searle's >Chinese room <expletive deleted> I can't > >> say anything at > >> >>all. > >> > > >> >>that is - I'd claim any machine that could do what Searle > >> claims in less > >> >>than infinite time would have to understand Chinese -- and > >> I'd claim that > >> >>we can get the same sort of pragmatic effcts on the web > >> without having to > >> >>deal with Agency, intention and authority -- should be > >> noted that I am the > >> >>ultimate "scruffy" in this, and that Pat has already > dealt me some > >> >>devastating blows in his response to my message (and I've > >> decided to > >> >>ignore them, rather than deal with them as Pat and I have > >> been having > >> >>this discussion on and off for going on twenty years now > >> and I cannot > >> >>remember how I refuted them last time :->) > >> > > >> >> > >> >>>However, I don't want to alarm anyone with this word, > >> AUTHORITY, with > >> >>>its connotations of condign power and all. So I came up with a > >> >>>replacement, UNDERWRITER. To say your terms are underwritten by > >> >>>an impressive agent would be to say that agent > provides a warranty > >> >>>promising to compensate you if you use a term they have > >> underwritten > >> >>>to mean one thing and you lose money because someone > misunderstands > >> >>>you to mean something else. It gives a whole new > meaning to Humpty > >> >>>Dumpty's strategy to have his words mean what he pays > them to mean. > >> >>>That said, I am completely serious about this. > >> >> > >> > > >> > > >> >>look, I understand a lot of this stuff - and if I have > heard this > >> >>argument that if we want agents to be at the heart of > e-commerce, > >> >>trust will be required -- but I also stick my ATM card into bank > >> >>machines that have access to my real money, and which > give me real > >> >>money, and I know that they have no model of Agency, > intention, and > >> >>authority/underwriting in any real sense -- there's a > set of human > >> >>social agreements with all these things that are enforced by the > >> >>infrastructure, and tested by trusted entities (the > banks) to where > >> >>I am willing to trust them. If I find an arbitrary web > site that > >> >>says Peter is a perfect being, then more fool me if I believe it > >> >>(but it's perfectly fine if I stick it into my crawler > results so > >> >>that when someone asks "perfect being" I return pointers to that > >> >>page among all the others). > >> > > >> > > >> >>In short, I realize what I am really arguing for is some sort of > >> >>operational semantics of this stuff that makes some > sense to us as > >> >>humans, works well enough in practice for us to build > systems out > >> >>of, and someday can perhaps be formalized as an interesting new > >> >>means of human-machine interaction. There's a nice example of > >> >>that in something called "programming langauges" where > operational > >> >>semantics have gotten us pretty danged far. > >> > > >> > > >> >>So put me down as a pragmatist over a Searlean (even if > I do tend > >> >>towards the Surly) > >> > > >> >>> well, we humans seem to be social agents who handle this > >> assertional > >> >>> stuff just fine - we know how to differentiate (at least in > >> >>> principle) between "what Pat said" and "What I think Pat > >> meant" - and > >> >>> we usually conditionalize the latter in civil discourse > >> -- seems to > >> >>> me our Sem Web agents could do the same and we could > move on to > >> >>> actually looking at this use of dereferencable URIs as > >> something that > >> >>> could add a lot of power to the SW if we had some social > >> >>> conventions/expectations. > >> > > >> > > >> >>so replace "semantic conventions/expectations" with "operational > >> >>semantics" and you'll see what I've been saying is actually a > >> >>relatively consistent position > >> >> -JH > >> >>p.s. and if you want to see what I think the basis of > operational > >> >>semantics for this stuff might be, go back to my early messages > >> >>about URIs and dereferencing in this group > >> >-- cf > >> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-sw-meaning/2003Sep/ > >0050.html > >> > >>>> > >>>> (i.e. I claim I am legitimized to believe that Peter > believes that he > >>>> is a perfect being by dint of stating it on his page > -- I may be > >>>> wrong, but then I'm usually wrong about what Peter believes, so > >>>> what's different about this?) > >> > >> > >>>-- > >> > >>>Professor James Hendler > >>>http://www.cs.umd.edu/users/hendler > >>>Director, Semantic Web and Agent Technologies 301-405-2696 > >>>Maryland Information and Network Dynamics Lab. > 301-405-6707 (Fax) > >>>Univ of Maryland, College Park, MD 20742 240-277-3388 (Cell) > >> > > > >-- > >Professor James Hendler > >http://www.cs.umd.edu/users/hendler > >Director, Semantic Web and Agent Technologies 301-405-2696 > >Maryland Information and Network Dynamics Lab. > 301-405-6707 (Fax) > >Univ of Maryland, College Park, MD 20742 240-277-3388 (Cell) > > -- > Professor James Hendler http://www.cs.umd.edu/users/hendler Director, Semantic Web and Agent Technologies 301-405-2696 Maryland Information and Network Dynamics Lab. 301-405-6707 (Fax) Univ of Maryland, College Park, MD 20742 240-277-3388 (Cell)
Received on Tuesday, 22 June 2004 16:58:02 UTC