- From: Anthony Grasso <anthony.grasso@cisra.canon.com.au>
- Date: Sat, 04 Sep 2010 02:29:06 +1000
- To: "public-svg-wg@w3.org" <public-svg-wg@w3.org>, www-svg@w3.org
http://www.w3.org/2010/09/03-svg-minutes.html
-----
[1]W3C
[1] http://www.w3.org/
- DRAFT -
SVG Working Group Teleconference
03 Sep 2010
See also: [2]IRC log
[2] http://www.w3.org/2010/09/03-svg-irc
Attendees
Present
Regrets
Chair
SV_MEETING_CHAIR
Scribe
Cyril, Anthony
Contents
* [3]Topics
1. [4]SVG Vector Effects
2. [5]SVG 1.1SE Last Call
3. [6]SVG 1.1 2nd Edition Candidate Recommendation
* [7]Summary of Action Items
_________________________________________________________
<trackbot> Date: 03 September 2010
SVG Vector Effects
<ChrisL>
[8]http://dev.w3.org/SVG/modules/vectoreffects/master/SVGVectorEffec
ts.html
[8] http://dev.w3.org/SVG/modules/vectoreffects/master/SVGVectorEffects.html
<Cyril_Concolato> scribe: Cyril
<ChrisL> scribenick: Cyril_Concolato
ChrisL: some examples are not in the spec
when specifying a paint you can use all existing options plus
currentFill and currentStroke
you can then stroke a path and the markers with the same stroke
I blew off some editorial comments
everything should be animatable
Doug: we should have a look at all of them
ChrisL: couple of cleanups that I did, the spec has not changed for
2 years
... the need for DOM came up to get an individual primitive or the
whole geomrty
... but when the effect is used multiple times, we need to discuss
how to do that
ED: the same problem exists with gradients
ChrisL: there was a concern that union/intersection are complex
anthony: there are expensive
... I don't know how fast it could be once animated
ChrisL: why do this in the language, why not in the authoring tool
... but if it's dynamic it has to be in the client
Doug: also for interchange between authoring tools
CC: our concern was also complexity but it can be explained in a
note
... why currentFill and currentStroke are linked with vector effect
ChrisL: it could be added to the main spec
CC: we also think that vector effect can be used for grouping path
semantically but we are concerned with the file size increase
ChrisL: if it's a modest increase in file size it should be
acceptable
CC: is adding points to SVG a feature related to vector effects
ChrisL: no
<ChrisL> Its a good idea but no obvious intersection with vector
effects
CC: yes but points may be shared between paths
... and if we want to express that sharing and if we use vector
effects to share paths between objects, it might make sense to have
points in vector effects
Tav: path along path
... is it insane ?
ChrisL: having a shape repeated along a path was shown in the
mapping requirements
Tav: I can show an example of a object being stretched along a path
<tbah> Lizard along path
[9]http://tavmjong.free.fr/INKSCAPE/MANUAL/html/Paths-LivePathEffect
s-PatternAlongPath.html
[9]
http://tavmjong.free.fr/INKSCAPE/MANUAL/html/Paths-LivePathEffects-PatternAlongPath.html
<ChrisL> and not ties to the subpath positions, like markers are
CC: It could be a way to make variable stroke along a path
<ChrisL> yes that would be very interesting
Tav: in Inkscape you have a pattern and a path and you can edit them
separately
... it would be nice to be able to edit when the positioning of the
pattern is active
ChrisL: I want that we agree on any new feature so that I can move
on with the spec
CC: we will provide feedback when we have implemented the use of
vector effect for our application (superpath)
ED: I don't have the ressources at the moment to work on it
ChrisL: if anyone has an implementation it would help to move the
spec along
... I'll try to get the spec ready for another draft
... the spec does not talk at all about API
... how can it be best done ?
... a method on each graphical element or on the filter ?
DS: having the list of places where an effect is used could be
useful for online editors
ChrisL: that could fix the gradient problem
Anthony: didn't we put wording in the spec about that ?
ChrisL: I don't recall
ED: if you have a gradient that use bouding box unit, on the
gradient we could have an API to evaluate the gradient on a specific
context
<shepazu> that would allow us to evaluate an effect on an element
before it's applied, which could be useful, if it's not too
expensive
<anthony>
[10]http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG11/pservers.html#GradientsIntroduction
[10] http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG11/pservers.html#GradientsIntroduction
ChrisL: the vector effects don't change the stroke
... I wonder if it would be better to separate the stroke into two
halfs
... inside and outside so that you can manipulate them separately
DS: that should be accessible with a short hand
<shepazu> it would be nice to have 'stroke-width-inner' and
'stroke-width-outer'
<shepazu> and shorthands should be added to the VE spec
<ed> topic: SVG 1.1 Last Call
<ChrisL> scribenick: tbah
SVG 1.1SE Last Call
<ed> [11]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/products/24
[11] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/products/24
<ChrisL> [12]http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/DoC/dump.html
[12] http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/DoC/dump.html
<ed> CL: don't check the file in, gets picked up by tracker and
linked to every issue
DS: what about the issue with SVG pointer-events on the svg root,
esp. used in HTML
<ChrisL> [13]http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/DoC/getxml.html
[13] http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/DoC/getxml.html
<ed> that's ISSUE-2364, right?
<ed> ISSUE-2364?
<trackbot> ISSUE-2364 -- SVG 1.1 may be ambiguous about the root
element acting as a proximal event target -- raised
<trackbot> [14]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2364
[14] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2364
ChrisL: Don't close issues for last call or they disappear (XSLT
doesn't pick it up).
<ChrisL> s/dissapear/dissapear from the autogenerated disposition of
comments/
<ChrisL> action-2800?
<trackbot> ACTION-2800 -- Chris Lilley to send in and track the
media type registration for image/svg+xml -- due 2010-06-24 -- OPEN
<trackbot> [15]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/actions/2800
[15] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/actions/2800
ChrisL: Received comment that there should have two different media
types for svg and compressed svg.
ChrisL/Cyril: But this isn't necessary since it is handled by
content headers.
ChrisL: Please look at registration to see how SVG content is
handled by clipboards; does it work?
<ChrisL> Macintosh Universal Type Identifier code:
<ChrisL> org.w3c.svg conforms to public.image and to public.xml
<ChrisL> Windows Clipboard Name:
<ChrisL> "SVG Image"
<ChrisL>
[16]http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/publish/mimereg.html
[16] http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/publish/mimereg.html
<ChrisL> don't know for kde or gnome, do they use internet media
type?
<ChrisL> tracker, status
<ChrisL> trackbot, status
<ChrisL> ACTION: tavmjong to investigate Inkscape SVG on clipboard
usage [recorded in
[17]http://www.w3.org/2010/09/03-svg-minutes.html#action01]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-2833 - Investigate Inkscape SVG on
clipboard usage [on Tavmjong Bah - due 2010-09-10].
<shepazu> [18]http://svg-whiz.com/svg/HideShow.svg
[18] http://svg-whiz.com/svg/HideShow.svg
<shepazu> I copy-pasted that with FF
tav: Inkscape seems to copy as text the svg file... but will
investigate further.
DS: It sounds like ChrisL has done due diligence on established
precedents.
<ChrisL> Copy and pasting the text is needed, but is separate from
copy pasting an image (for example to drop into a dtp program)
<ChrisL> I checked what MathML did and looked at some documentation
for windows and macosx; did not find good docs for linux gnome, or
kde
ED: Is there something to specify if the content is gzipped or not?
<ChrisL> action-2809?
<trackbot> ACTION-2809 -- Erik Dahlström to investigate ISSUE-2334
and report back -- due 2010-07-06 -- OPEN
<trackbot> [19]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/actions/2809
[19] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/actions/2809
ED: Basically done, will write an email.
<ChrisL> action-2812?
<trackbot> ACTION-2812 -- Erik Dahlström to find the test case,
commit it and make some proposed wording -- due 2010-07-13 -- OPEN
<trackbot> [20]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/actions/2812
[20] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/actions/2812
<ChrisL> relates to ISSUE-2335 -- Clarify feConvolveMatrix bias
property, specificasly the bias attribute
ED: Finding the test case probably not too hard, but will need to
check that it does what people want.
<ChrisL> action-2813?
<trackbot> ACTION-2813 -- Chris Lilley to propose wording for
ISSUE-2336 to say if it is malformed it doesn't have an effect --
due 2010-07-13 -- OPEN
<trackbot> [21]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/actions/2813
[21] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/actions/2813
ChrisL: Change checked in, no comment back from commentor.
<ChrisL> ah, i now see he did agree
[22]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2010Jul/0081.html
[22] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2010Jul/0081.html
<ChrisL> action-2814?
<trackbot> ACTION-2814 -- Anthony Grasso to add wording to the
specification to say that the behaviour is unspecified for those
cases in ISSUE-2337 -- due 2010-07-13 -- OPEN
<trackbot> [23]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/actions/2814
[23] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/actions/2814
Anthony: Still working on it.
<ChrisL> action-2817?
<trackbot> ACTION-2817 -- Chris Lilley to add the promised note
relating to ISSUE-2340 -- due 2010-07-13 -- OPEN
<trackbot> [24]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/actions/2817
[24] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/actions/2817
<ChrisL>
[25]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2010JulSep/001
0.html
[25] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2010JulSep/0010.html
ChrisL: Made test case, got different results in different
implemenations.
<ChrisL> erik: check animval in the dom to be sure its not cut off
at the semicolon
<ChrisL> <animate keytimes="0s, 2.9s" attributeName="xlink:href"
values="../images/linkingCircle-f.svg#svgView(viewBox(120,200,40,40)
);../images/linkingCircle-f.svg#svgView(viewBox(64,227,72,72))"
ED: Try quote marks.
<ChrisL> erik: try quote marks around each uri
DS: Is that allowed?
<ChrisL> <animate keytimes="0s, 2.9s" attributeName="xlink:href"
values="'../images/linkingCircle-f.svg#svgView(viewBox(120,200,40,40
))';'../images/linkingCircle-f.svg#svgView(viewBox(64,227,72,72))'"
<ChrisL> sowe would then say that inside quotes, ; is not treated as
a smil values list separator
<ChrisL> erik: you could use url escaping too
<ChrisL> so %3B would be the escape here
Cyril: Would first split list by ; and then evaluate.
DS: Quoting would be nicer... maybe something for SVG2.
ChrisL: Will still work on this.
<ChrisL> ok so I will make a new test, with percent escaping and
check in the dom for animval
<ChrisL> action-2818?
<trackbot> ACTION-2818 -- Chris Lilley to investigate ISSUE-2341 and
look for previous comments -- due 2010-07-13 -- OPEN
<trackbot> [26]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/actions/2818
[26] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/actions/2818
Cyril: Propose to copy 1.2Tiny text.
ChrisL: Will do that if no one objects.
<ChrisL> this text
[27]http://www.w3.org/TR/SVGTiny12/animate.html#complexDistances
[27] http://www.w3.org/TR/SVGTiny12/animate.html#complexDistances
<ChrisL> action-2821?
<trackbot> ACTION-2821 -- Chris Lilley to update the references
section for issue-2344 -- due 2010-07-13 -- OPEN
<trackbot> [28]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/actions/2821
[28] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/actions/2821
<ChrisL> cyril: need to update 'list of' in types section too
ChrisL: Changed and approved.
<ChrisL> issue is closed, commentor agrees
ED: Need actions for rest of items.
<ed> ISSUE-2364?
<trackbot> ISSUE-2364 -- SVG 1.1 may be ambiguous about the root
element acting as a proximal event target -- raised
<trackbot> [29]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2364
[29] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2364
<shepazu>
[30]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2010Aug/0011.html
[30] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2010Aug/0011.html
<shepazu>
[31]http://www.schepers.cc/svg/blendups/overlay/test/content.xhtml
[31] http://www.schepers.cc/svg/blendups/overlay/test/content.xhtml
<shepazu>
[32]http://www.schepers.cc/svg/blendups/overlay/test/overlap.xhtml
[32] http://www.schepers.cc/svg/blendups/overlay/test/overlap.xhtml
<ChrisL> (updated disposition of comments at
[33]http://www.w3.org/2010/09/SVG1.1SE-LastCall/dump.html )
[33] http://www.w3.org/2010/09/SVG1.1SE-LastCall/dump.html
DS: If you have an SVG plugin in HTML, and you click on a
non-existent backround, should the event be passed through?
Cyril: Answer: It can refuse to handle the event and pass it back to
the system, so the containing application will handle it.
<shepazu> [34]http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG/interact.html#PointerEvents
[34] http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG/interact.html#PointerEvents
<anthony> Scribe: Anthony
<scribe> ScribeNick: anthony
DS: Now all browsers are consistent for referenced content
... they violate the SVG spec
ED: The point about the reference object
... The behaviour would be hard to change
... and violate some security protocols
CC: Looking at overlap.xhtml
... when you click on inline
... on the bottom
... you get two events
DS: Look at the code
... it's a single event
... but two boxes
... on question is does the event bubble
... bubbles for an inline case
ED: It's never bubbled between documents
CC: I think the inline case is correctly implemented
DS: No
... it's not in FireFox
AG: Want it to be consistent
DS: Click the background
... which is incorrect
ED: I'd assume that the click goes through transparent areas
CC: We need to agree on behaviours and see if it's correct in the
spec
DS: Need to look at use cases and interpretations
... so, the argument was raised that treading SVG like a <div> since
it has dimensions if you clicked inside that <div>
... it dispatches the event
CC: Even with transparent background?
DS: Yes
... so question is have to establish what the default is
... and how do you change it
ED: We had something like FireFox
... but we asked to change it
CC: Have to be consistent with SVG in HTML and SVG in SVG
DS: We need to look at the spec
... currently, Opera and Webkit behave one way with inline SVG
... the SVG root does not intercept events
... it passes them through
CC: Nothing happens in the SVG context
... regards to this event
DS: SVG spec is moderately clear on this
<shepazu>
[35]http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG/interact.html#UIEventProcessing
[35] http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG/interact.html#UIEventProcessing
CC: IE9 is doing as Opera is doing
DS: I would prefer that inline and referenced SVG behaved the same
way
ED: Changing that now
... would be bad for SVG in general
... people have come to expect certain behaviour
All: [16.5 Read through Processing order for user interface events]
DS: Clarify that this section is about hit testing and not
propagation
ED: Would be better if there was a graph here
DS: Problem with the section is it confuses hit testing, event
propagation and order of processing
ED: It's trying to describe a flowchart or something
DS: Doesn't talk about things like selecting graphics elements
... when SVG was written we didn't talk about default view or window
ED: How would you change this?
DS: Instead of processing order
... I would break it down to a section on hit testing
CC: Something has been hit? something not hit?
DS: Yes, if something hit. Go through and process actions
... If it has not been hit
... give a context menu
ED: Would be nice to have an SVG graph
... down the side
... that matches the text
AG: I agree, much easier to read and implement
ED: It's pretty clear what needs to be done
DS: So we are going to do this in SVG 1.1 Full 2nd edition
CC: We have this text in Tiny 1.2
DS: We pulled out the part on pseudo classes
CC: Has this other bit - 13.8 Event dispatching
ED: It's different
... but might need an errata on Tiny 1.2
<scribe> ACTION: Doug to Clarify section 16.5 Processing order for
user interface events relating to problems in ISSUE-2364 [recorded
in [36]http://www.w3.org/2010/09/03-svg-minutes.html#action02]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-2834 - Clarify section 16.5 Processing
order for user interface events relating to problems in ISSUE-2364
[on Doug Schepers - due 2010-09-10].
CC: What about key events?
DS: That's another matter
... that's why saying this is about hit testing is relevant
CC: That's a whole different discussion. But at some point someone
should investigate this
DS: ED you're saying for security reasons, you're not going to allow
events to pass through in an iFrame
... It's the same in object
... and if you change the one
... people would expect the other to change
ED: If you have an <img> element it's like a static image with no
script and no events
... so it's the HTML you're getting events on
DS: Do you treat image and object the same?
ED: No
... I assume object, embed and iframe behave the same
... embed not so much
... object and iframe is mostly the same I think
CC: What about SVG <image>
ED: It's defined in the spec
... but should behave the way as <img>
DS: I understand why are you doing this
... but for content creation it's a pain
... say you have some SVG and you want to click through on the
element and where there isn't SVG content you
... want to get to the HTML
ED: So you if you have transparency you get the HTML?
... Does the same thing happen for PNG?
... So we treat it the same
DS: I'm talking for object here
ED: Not sure we are talking about the same thing
DS: Look at my example
... We need to have a larger discussion about clicking through the
transparent content would be a problem
AG: This would be a good thing to discuss at TPAC
CC: When the SVG is in the document it's behaviour is the same as a
<div>
DS: I'm saying for the inline case
... Maybe this needs to happen during a telcon
... because we want all browsers to have the correct behaviour
ED: There might be use cases the other way
... not just having events go through
DS: I said you set pointerEvents to all
... as I suggested
ED: I just think this is something that goes beyond SVG content
CL: Could probably put that wording in the integration spec
DS: A quick test that mouse move on an empty SVG document intercepts
i.e. the root dispatches the event
... All the modern browsers I tested
... this is contrary to ASV and seems to be contrary to the spec
... but is consistent with HTML
<scribe> ACTION: Doug to Add a table to the integration document
about the embedded and inline SVG with regards to pointer events on
the SVG root [recorded in
[37]http://www.w3.org/2010/09/03-svg-minutes.html#action03]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-2835 - Add a table to the integration
document about the embedded and inline SVG with regards to pointer
events on the SVG root [on Doug Schepers - due 2010-09-10].
ISSUE-2363?
<trackbot> ISSUE-2363 -- Last Call Comment: Reconcile 'stroke'
presentation attributes on <image> -- raised
<trackbot> [38]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2363
[38] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2363
ED: I think Cameron and me have responded to this on the list
... saying what we have now in the spec
... is a lot better than what was in previous 1.1 spec
... so in the previous 1.1 spec we had DTD to say what attributes
where on each element
... so now have something that can be expanded and is more readable
and made it more clear
... that presentation attributes can be specified anywhere
... even if they don't apply to the element it's specified on
CL: So specified and applied to are distinguished?
ED: Yes
CL: Therefore we should reject the comment
... because it's a no change required
... The issue was raised by Doug
<ed>
[39]http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG11/masking.html#ObjectAndGroupOpacityPro
perties
[39] http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG11/masking.html#ObjectAndGroupOpacityProperties
DS: Please show me where it's specified
ED: That's one example
... it clearly says applies to
<shepazu> [40]http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG/struct.html#ImageElement
[40] http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG/struct.html#ImageElement
DS: However if you go to here
... And you click on the, presentation attributes, it lists it
CL: That's right
... exactly
... it doesn't apply to it
DS: I was talking to someone on IRC and they were trying to do this
... (stroke image element)
... and they go to the presentation attributes they can set on the
element
... I think we should change the spec to things that have an effect
on the element
CL: So it's currently done the other way
... for each property it says what it applies to
... this is an argument we've had since the entire life time on the
SVG
... then others say somethings should be set only on an element only
... in some cases things would be disallowed because when children
... were placed in the element
... sometimes things apply
DS: Maybe it's the choice on how fine grain things are categorised
CL: This is going against a decision that was made 2 -3 years ago
... it's a huge change
... to be doing this
DS: Let's be clear
... we all agree it is confusing
CL: It could be confusing
ED: In some cases yes
DS: It has been proven to be confusing to some people
... including me
CL: Presentation attributes are in the form of properties
CC: As an implementer it reads well
... as an author
... it probably doesn't
... what matters at least someone can be confused
ED: What are you suggesting?
DS: Is it work the extra time to do this, to change it
CL: Change how?
DS: So, maybe in this case if we wanted to do the minimum work if it
could some how be styled differently
... if it has an effect an element
ED: Yes, that would be nice
... make them bold
... if they applied to the element
CC: As long as it is editorial
CL: It will be editorial
... with all the presentation attributes it is a link which takes
you to the definition
DS: How is this generated?
ED: It's generated from the XML, IDL
CL: Another thing we could do to make the spec better
... is to say the difference between applies to and specified on
CC: Adding the new sentence you said will help
... but changing the style and linking to that
... would at least give a hint that it's not that simple
... having it in bold would say would it apply
... it's precise and it's clear
... but it doesn't speak to most of the people
ED: My objection is don't we have that sentence somewhere?
... styling?
... I would not want to have two sentence that say two different
things about the same topic
DS: There is a sentence here in styling
... two links away
ED: Specificity of 0 is in there 6.4
<shepazu> [[
<shepazu> For user agents that support CSS, the presentation
attributes must be translated to corresponding CSS style rules
according to rules described in Precedence of non-CSS presentational
hints ([CSS2], section 6.4.4), with the additional clarification
that the presentation attributes are conceptually inserted into a
new author style sheet which is the first in the author style sheet
collection. The presentation attributes thus will participate in the
CSS2 cascade
<shepazu> ]]
CL: The section on presentation attributes could have it in there
DS: That would be two links away
<shepazu>
[41]http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG/intro.html#TermPresentationAttribute
[41] http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG/intro.html#TermPresentationAttribute
DS: could have it here so that it's one link away
... Could say "Note not all presentation attributes specified on an
element will apply to the element. For a list of elements that a
property applies to see... blah"
... how hard would it be style them bold or normal?
ED: I think that would be a bit of work
... I don't think we have a list or things
... adding the sentences here would be less work
DS: In SVG 2. I would like us to re examine if we can have a stroke
around the edge of an image?
CL: Wouldn't that be a border?
DS: Depends on if we allow padding around it and borders have
different properties to borders
<scribe> ACTION: Chris to Include the above disclaimer about the
applicability of presentation attributes on elements [recorded in
[42]http://www.w3.org/2010/09/03-svg-minutes.html#action04]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-2836 - Include the above disclaimer about
the applicability of presentation attributes on elements [on Chris
Lilley - due 2010-09-10].
SVG 1.1 2nd Edition Candidate Recommendation
back from break
DS: First we need to agree on the set of tests that make up the SVG
1.1 2nd edition test suite
CL: Previously, the action of building the test suit generated all
the files to do the testing
AG: I believe the reporting stuff is working
<scribe> ACTION: Anthony to Check if report generation for the test
suite is working and report back [recorded in
[43]http://www.w3.org/2010/09/03-svg-minutes.html#action05]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-2837 - Check if report generation for the
test suite is working and report back [on Anthony Grasso - due
2010-09-10].
AG: So the way the test suite generation scripts work is you have a
list of tests and every component in the test suite
... is generated according to that list
DS: For all the tests we don't have results on, each implementer can
run the tests and report back to us
<scribe> ACTION: Doug to Run the tests on Safari on Mac [recorded in
[44]http://www.w3.org/2010/09/03-svg-minutes.html#action06]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-2838 - Run the tests on Safari on Mac [on
Doug Schepers - due 2010-09-10].
<scribe> ACTION: Chris to Run the tests on Firefox on Windows
[recorded in
[45]http://www.w3.org/2010/09/03-svg-minutes.html#action07]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-2839 - Run the tests on Firefox on Windows
[on Chris Lilley - due 2010-09-10].
<scribe> ACTION: Erik to Run the tests on Opera [recorded in
[46]http://www.w3.org/2010/09/03-svg-minutes.html#action08]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-2840 - Run the tests on Opera [on Erik
Dahlström - due 2010-09-10].
<scribe> ACTION: Cyril to Run the tests on GPac [recorded in
[47]http://www.w3.org/2010/09/03-svg-minutes.html#action09]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-2841 - Run the tests on GPac [on Cyril
Concolato - due 2010-09-10].
<scribe> ACTION: Tav to Run the tests on Inkscape [recorded in
[48]http://www.w3.org/2010/09/03-svg-minutes.html#action10]
<trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - Tav
<scribe> ACTION: Tavmjong to Run the tests on Inkscape [recorded in
[49]http://www.w3.org/2010/09/03-svg-minutes.html#action11]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-2842 - Run the tests on Inkscape [on
Tavmjong Bah - due 2010-09-10].
Topics: Connectors
CL: So that was news to me that you could make a complex path going
through a few points
TB: We have a sophisticated routing than what's proposed. But
because the path between objects can be enhanced
... we wouldn't be losing anything that's already in inkscape
DS: [Demo's current connectors implementation]
... Connector goes from centroid to centroid
AG: This could be difficult to calculate
... particularly if you're clipping parts of an object out
CL: Why not the center of the bounding box?
DS: Different possible syntax for point
... if you're looking at the bounding box of the parent
... it'd be useful to allow a percentage of the parent bounding box
... A port has a specific role of point
... it is a child of a shape
... point is a non rendering element
... you can style it with a marker
CL: Effectively it's a zero length line
DS: Each node being linked to has a port that will be preferential
to where connection is made
... it will always go to the nearest between two ports
TB: Can you specify
... the port?
DS: Yes
... I've got a sample implementation and done some work on this
... I want to know if we agree to work on this
CL: Do we agree that this is the direction we should go in?
CC: How would you add it, if you were to add it?
... a separate module?
DS: Yes
... I'd intend for it to be part of SVG 2
... we've had a level of requests for this
TB: We've had requests for this as well
DS: This is a common case I've seen again and again
ED: Not convinced yet
DS: This is does not add, drag and drop, it does not add routing
ED: Does it add any dependencies that you need to resolve?
DS: There are very well defined dependencies
... when a shape is moved
... the connection changes
ED: We have to track a lot of dependencies already
... the less we need to do the faster it will be
... the graph of dependencies grows
... you can do this in script
... just not convinced
DS: Yes, you're right
... it's a common use case that is not easy to do in script
... it doesn't establish the semantics and behaviour
... I think it is a compelling feature that makes SVG very
attractive for use
CC: You could do the opposite
... and say this is a line
... and this is connector
... and then put a marker on it
... This could also be done with Cameron's constraints
DS: This is a subsection of constraints. Gives people a lot of power
to build things in SVG
... getting the connector for free gives people something accessible
... and graphics like this will not be accessible without this
CC: Couldn't you do this with a line
... and give it a role of connector?
DS: Yes, but it doesn't give the author any reason to do this
ED: Why does it have to be in SVG?
... why not stand alone?
... in a completely different spec
... used in other languages
DS: What other languages?
ED: Connect this div to another div
DS: But that is not a visual language
... SVG is a visual language
... this would pretty much the highest thing we would have at this
level
CC: There are two parts the rendering constraints and the semantics
... I think we can have either the semantics or the constraints
CL: So I think that he is arguing
... that use <path> instead of <connector>
... point is fine
ED: We should close for the day
... and continue discussion later
Summary of Action Items
[NEW] ACTION: Anthony to Check if report generation for the test
suite is working and report back [recorded in
[50]http://www.w3.org/2010/09/03-svg-minutes.html#action05]
[NEW] ACTION: Chris to Include the above disclaimer about the
applicability of presentation attributes on elements [recorded in
[51]http://www.w3.org/2010/09/03-svg-minutes.html#action04]
[NEW] ACTION: Chris to Run the tests on Firefox on Windows [recorded
in [52]http://www.w3.org/2010/09/03-svg-minutes.html#action07]
[NEW] ACTION: Cyril to Run the tests on GPac [recorded in
[53]http://www.w3.org/2010/09/03-svg-minutes.html#action09]
[NEW] ACTION: Doug to Add a table to the integration document about
the embedded and inline SVG with regards to pointer events on the
SVG root [recorded in
[54]http://www.w3.org/2010/09/03-svg-minutes.html#action03]
[NEW] ACTION: Doug to Clarify section 16.5 Processing order for user
interface events relating to problems in ISSUE-2364 [recorded in
[55]http://www.w3.org/2010/09/03-svg-minutes.html#action02]
[NEW] ACTION: Doug to Run the tests on Safari on Mac [recorded in
[56]http://www.w3.org/2010/09/03-svg-minutes.html#action06]
[NEW] ACTION: Erik to Run the tests on Opera [recorded in
[57]http://www.w3.org/2010/09/03-svg-minutes.html#action08]
[NEW] ACTION: Tav to Run the tests on Inkscape [recorded in
[58]http://www.w3.org/2010/09/03-svg-minutes.html#action10]
[NEW] ACTION: tavmjong to investigate Inkscape SVG on clipboard
usage [recorded in
[59]http://www.w3.org/2010/09/03-svg-minutes.html#action01]
[NEW] ACTION: Tavmjong to Run the tests on Inkscape [recorded in
[60]http://www.w3.org/2010/09/03-svg-minutes.html#action11]
[End of minutes]
_________________________________________________________
Minutes formatted by David Booth's [61]scribe.perl version 1.135
([62]CVS log)
$Date: 2010/09/03 16:24:37 $
_________________________________________________________
[61] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm
[62] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/
Scribe.perl diagnostic output
[Delete this section before finalizing the minutes.]
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.135 of Date: 2009/03/02 03:52:20
Check for newer version at [63]http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002
/scribe/
[63] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/
Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)
Succeeded: s/comlex/complex/
Succeeded: s/for authoring exchanges/also for interchange between autho
ring tools/
Succeeded: s/each effect/each graphical element/
Succeeded: s/How do we treat conflicts with other specs? As last call i
tems?/what about the issue with SVG pointer-events on the svg root, esp
. used in HTML/
FAILED: s/dissapear/dissapear from the autogenerated disposition of com
ments/
Succeeded: s/It sounds like ChrisL has done due diigence on establihed
precedents/It sounds like ChrisL has done due diligence on established
precedents/
Succeeded: s/Cryil/Cyril/
Succeeded: s/If/DS: If/
Succeeded: s/No/It can refuse to handle the event and pass it back to t
he system, so the containing application will handle it/
Succeeded: s/apply to it/apply to the element it's specified on/
Succeeded: s/elemnt/element/
Found Scribe: Cyril
Found ScribeNick: Cyril_Concolato
Found ScribeNick: tbah
Found Scribe: Anthony
Inferring ScribeNick: anthony
Found ScribeNick: anthony
Scribes: Cyril, Anthony
ScribeNicks: Cyril_Concolato, tbah, anthony
WARNING: No "Present: ... " found!
Possibly Present: AG All CC CL ChrisL Cyril Cyril_Concolato DS Doug TB
anthony ed erik f1lt3r joined scribenick shepazu svg tav tbah trackbot
You can indicate people for the Present list like this:
<dbooth> Present: dbooth jonathan mary
<dbooth> Present+ amy
WARNING: No meeting chair found!
You should specify the meeting chair like this:
<dbooth> Chair: dbooth
Found Date: 03 Sep 2010
Guessing minutes URL: [64]http://www.w3.org/2010/09/03-svg-minutes.html
People with action items: anthony chris cyril doug erik tav tavmjong
[64] http://www.w3.org/2010/09/03-svg-minutes.html
End of [65]scribe.perl diagnostic output]
[65] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm
Received on Friday, 3 September 2010 16:29:52 UTC