- From: Jonathan Watt <jwatt@jwatt.org>
- Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 22:50:52 +0100
- To: www-svg <www-svg@w3.org>
http://www.w3.org/2009/11/16-svg-minutes.html
---
[1]W3C
[1] http://www.w3.org/
- DRAFT -
SVG Working Group Teleconference
16 Nov 2009
See also: [2]IRC log
[2] http://www.w3.org/2009/11/16-svg-irc
Attendees
Present
jwatt, [IPcaller], anthony, ed, Shepazu.a, Shepazu,
Doug_Schepers
Regrets
Chair
Erik
Scribe
anthony, Jonathan Watt
Contents
* [3]Topics
1. [4]Next SVG F2F
2. [5]3D Transforms
3. [6]SVG 1.1 2nd Ed.
4. [7]Transforms module feedback
5. [8]SVG DOM
* [9]Summary of Action Items
_________________________________________________________
<trackbot> Date: 16 November 2009
<anthony> Scribe: anthony
Next SVG F2F
<jwatt> scribe: Jonathan Watt
<jwatt> scribenick: jwatt
AG: we were tentatively thinking 10-14 (Wed-Sun) Feb 2010
... but if that puts too much of a squeeze on Erik's travel, maybe
we can move it back a day
... we should start booking soon, because things start to fill up
quickly
ED: I would prefer to move it back a day or two
... one day is probably enough
... but I need to check flight times
... worst case, I miss the last day
JW: I'm okay with shifting it back a day
<ed> shepazu: you ok with 9-13th feb?
JW: we should check it meets Doug's constraints too
3D Transforms
[10]http://www.w3.org/mid/200911160854.nAG8sNIH030663@mail16.tpgi.co
m.au
[10] http://www.w3.org/mid/200911160854.nAG8sNIH030663@mail16.tpgi.com.au
<anthony>
[11]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2009Nov/0025.html
[11] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2009Nov/0025.html
JW: It's not completely clear to me what the second of those two
links requires
... but I think it's covered by z-index from what I understand
... waiting on feedback to the email I sent him
<ed>
[12]http://www.w3.org/2007/11/SVG_rechartering/SVG-WG-charter.html
[12] http://www.w3.org/2007/11/SVG_rechartering/SVG-WG-charter.html
<anthony>
[13]http://dev.w3.org/SVG/modules/transforms/SVGTransformsReqs.html
[13] http://dev.w3.org/SVG/modules/transforms/SVGTransformsReqs.html
JW: do we want to make a formal statement of the extent and limits
of SVG's 3D ambitions?
ED: our charter does talk about pseudo 3D
AG: and we have our use cases and requirements document
<ed> "To allow more advanced design features and efficient
decorative effects, there will be attention paid to new stroking and
filling options, including pseudo-3D (2.5D) effects by means of new
gradients, filters, and non-affine transformations, with authoring
tips for their use."
AG: that says what we're trying to address
JW: we have the new transforms module and the z-index proposal
ED: and gradients may have some pseudo-3D effects
<scribe> ACTION: anthony to send an email clarifying our pseudo-3D
ambitions [recorded in
[14]http://www.w3.org/2009/11/16-svg-minutes.html#action01]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-2691 - Send an email clarifying our
pseudo-3D ambitions [on Anthony Grasso - due 2009-11-23].
<scribe> ACTION: anthony to update the wiki page with the F2F times
[recorded in
[15]http://www.w3.org/2009/11/16-svg-minutes.html#action02]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-2692 - Update the wiki page with the F2F
times [on Anthony Grasso - due 2009-11-23].
DS: I think we've not done a very good job of articulating our
pseudo-3D ambitions
... maybe we need to start using the front page of our wiki to more
clearly articulate where we're going
JW: sounds good
DS: I'm going to try to redesign the front page to be much more
friendly
<scribe> ACTION: doug to redesign the SVG WG wiki page, and
articulate there our pseudo-3D ambitions [recorded in
[16]http://www.w3.org/2009/11/16-svg-minutes.html#action03]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-2693 - Redesign the SVG WG wiki page, and
articulate there our pseudo-3D ambitions [on Doug Schepers - due
2009-11-23].
DS: we've been using the wiki to collect our thoughts for ourselves,
but we should start using it to disseminate information
... in a more friendly form, with links to all the relevant
documents
... and we need to have good links from the main page to these pages
JW: agreed
AG: okay, i'll make a page and just link to it in the reply I send
to the list
DS: and if Microsoft does join the group some time soon, then
probably other companies will join too
... in which case it will be especially useful to have documents
that lots of new members can use to catch up more quickly
SVG 1.1 2nd Ed.
ED: I'm going to commit the zip with the Java bindings
... I haven't looked at every single one of them, so I can't
guarantee that they are all correct
... I'm planning to email Cameron and Vincent
DS: and ask on the public list for a public review
ED: I can add the diffs
... most of them are fairly small
... but it's still 300 files or so
... I'll do that after the telcon
<ed>
[17]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/Errata_in_SVG_1.1_Second_
Edition
[17] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/Errata_in_SVG_1.1_Second_Edition
ED: the other thing that needs to be done is review the 3 unreviewed
tests on this page
... I haven't had time to do it yet
... if anyone else feels like doing it, feel free
... it may be hard to review that test until we've decided how to
resolve the issues in the "Again with the getIntersectionList()"
thread on the public list
... so maybe we should schedule that for next week
<ed>
[18]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2009OctDec/000
5.html
[18] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2009OctDec/0005.html
ED: but that's one of the last few things we need to do before we
can publish
... maybe a few other's from Cameron's email
... okay, I'll put IntersectionList down for Thursday
... there's nothing major from Cameron's list, I think
... so we should be able to get 2nd Ed out very soon - it would be
nice to have it out of the way
... are the harnesses for the test suite in good shape?
AG: yes
... I committed a whole bunch of stuff recently
... all the scripts are up to date
... I removed the svggen directory
... I started going over the Batik render errors
... to make sure the references are getting produced correctly
... I haven't tested the archive generation, but I'm fairly
confident it's working correctly
Transforms module feedback
<ed>
[19]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2009Nov/0041.html
[19] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2009Nov/0041.html
<anthony>
[20]http://dev.w3.org/SVG/modules/transforms/SVGTransforms.html
[20] http://dev.w3.org/SVG/modules/transforms/SVGTransforms.html
ED: the first two questions are strongly related to z-index
DS: we should look at how CSS transforms deal with z-index
<ed> [21]http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-3d-transforms/#transform-style
[21] http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-3d-transforms/#transform-style
<shepazu> [[The position on the Z axis of a transformed element does
not affect the order within a stacking context. With elements at the
same z-index, objects are drawn in order of increasing z position.
]]
JW: that makes sense to me
DS: and CSS and SVG should be consistent on this
... one way or another
JW: so with transforms one part of the element will appear to be
further along the z-axis than another part of the same element
AG: yes
JW: so in principle you could have two elements rotated around the
z-axis that could cut through each other
AG: yes, so you have to ask yourself if you want to go full 3D like
that
... which means you have to have a completely different rendering
model and solve all sorts of problems
JW: you probably need hardware support at that point, which is
pobably going further than we want
DS: I don't think we should go to actual 3D
... I think what they've done in CSS transforms is what we should do
<shepazu> [[ ‘transform-style’ property : Note that while
‘preserve-3d’ can be specified on an element, the effect may not be
possible. Elements that have ‘overflow’ set to ‘hidden’ are unable
to keep their children in 3D. In this case the element will behave
as if the property was set to ‘flat’. ]]
<shepazu> [[ This flattening takes place at each element ]]
<general agreement about using the CSS way>
DS: I think we should articulate this somewhere
JW: the way to think about it is elements are painted one at a time
... as an element is painted, it in by itself given a 3D transform,
and painted
... when the next element is painted, the same thing
... this is totally different to taking all elements, arranging them
in 3D space, then painting the 3D scene
AG: I think both the CSS spec and our spec should be a lot clearer
about this
DS: the SVG and CSS WGs have gotten a lot better at working together
... and I think we need to work a lot closer still with transforms
... so that 3D transforms are completely consistent between the two
specs
... possibly one spec would be the way to go
... it would probably be a good place to talk about z-index as well,
since how it interacts with 3D transforms needs to be clear
ED: we should mark up our requirements clearly
... it would be interesting to have sections on how things apply to
HTML and other sections on how things apply to SVG in the same
document
DS: the CSS transforms spec seems stalled for the moment, so making
a joint effort on a joint spec could hopefully get things started
again
... going back to Steve's email, I think Antony should reply, and
put unresolved issues into tracker
... mention that we will be talking to the CSS WG, and that he
should also take a look at the CSS WG's spec
... he says he doesn't like matrices, and I don't like them either
AG: we should have them for completeness though
SVG DOM
<shepazu> [22]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/DOM
[22] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/DOM
DS: we should add our commentary to the "commentary" page
<shepazu> [23]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/DOM_Report
[23] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/DOM_Report
DS: stuff that's good, stuff that should be dropped, stuff to
improve...
<scribe> ACTION: anthony to check with JS about joining forces with
the CSS WG, and if that's okay, approach them [recorded in
[24]http://www.w3.org/2009/11/16-svg-minutes.html#action04]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-2694 - Check with JS about joining forces
with the CSS WG, and if that's okay, approach them [on Anthony
Grasso - due 2009-11-23].
trackbot: end telcon
Summary of Action Items
[NEW] ACTION: anthony to check with JS about joining forces with the
CSS WG, and if that's okay, approach them [recorded in
[25]http://www.w3.org/2009/11/16-svg-minutes.html#action04]
[NEW] ACTION: anthony to send an email clarifying our pseudo-3D
ambitions [recorded in
[26]http://www.w3.org/2009/11/16-svg-minutes.html#action01]
[NEW] ACTION: anthony to update the wiki page with the F2F times
[recorded in
[27]http://www.w3.org/2009/11/16-svg-minutes.html#action02]
[NEW] ACTION: doug to redesign the SVG WG wiki page, and articulate
there our pseudo-3D ambitions [recorded in
[28]http://www.w3.org/2009/11/16-svg-minutes.html#action03]
[End of minutes]
_________________________________________________________
Minutes formatted by David Booth's [29]scribe.perl version 1.135
([30]CVS log)
$Date: 2009/11/16 21:45:50 $
_________________________________________________________
[29] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm
[30] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/
Scribe.perl diagnostic output
[Delete this section before finalizing the minutes.]
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.135 of Date: 2009/03/02 03:52:20
Check for newer version at [31]http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002
/scribe/
[31] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/
Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)
Succeeded: s/I/...I/
Succeeded: s/intersect/cut through/
Succeeded: s/my itself/by itself/
Found Scribe: anthony
Inferring ScribeNick: anthony
Found Scribe: Jonathan Watt
Found ScribeNick: jwatt
Scribes: anthony, Jonathan Watt
ScribeNicks: jwatt, anthony
Default Present: jwatt, [IPcaller], anthony, ed, Shepazu.a, Shepazu, Do
ug_Schepers
Present: jwatt [IPcaller] anthony ed Shepazu.a Shepazu Doug_Schepers
Found Date: 16 Nov 2009
Guessing minutes URL: [32]http://www.w3.org/2009/11/16-svg-minutes.html
People with action items: anthony doug
[32] http://www.w3.org/2009/11/16-svg-minutes.html
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[33] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm
Received on Monday, 16 November 2009 21:51:34 UTC