- From: Cameron McCormack <cam@mcc.id.au>
- Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2009 18:09:48 +1000
- To: www-svg@w3.org
Hello www-svg.
The minutes from the 19 August 2009 telcon are available here:
http://www.w3.org/2009/08/19-svg-minutes.html
and below as text for tracker to notice.
Thanks,
Cameron
----
[1]W3C
[1] http://www.w3.org/
- DRAFT -
SVG Working Group Teleconference
19 Aug 2009
[2]Agenda
[2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2009JulSep/0051.html
See also: [3]IRC log
[3] http://www.w3.org/2009/08/19-svg-irc
Attendees
Present
Doug_Schepers, ed, heycam, anthony, ChrisL, [IPcaller]
Regrets
Chair
Erik
Scribe
Cameron
Contents
* [4]Topics
1. [5]SVG Open F2F
2. [6]SVG 1.1 Second Edition progress
3. [7]SVG in text/html issue status
4. [8]canvas breakout
5. [9]Media Fragments use cases and requirements review
6. [10]filterRes rounding [www-svg]
7. [11]feGaussianBlur [www-svg]
8. [12]Inheritance during SVG animation of CSS properties
9. [13]possible errata: SVG 1.1/1.2 tspan Element dx Attribute
definition [www-svg]
10. [14]CSS images module [www-svg]
* [15]Summary of Action Items
_________________________________________________________
<trackbot> Date: 19 August 2009
<scribe> Scribe: Cameron
<scribe> ScribeNick: heycam
SVG Open F2F
[16]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVGOpen_F2F_2009
[16] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVGOpen_F2F_2009
ED: i was hoping jwatt would be here to get confirmation on having a
meeting venue
... i would like to have some up to date information on the wiki
page
... it's fairly soon
... is there a registration page?
CL: no, we could go ahead and make one
ED: agenda requests for the f2f would be good to have on that page
... i'm guessing that if we wanted to push out the second edition
spec we'd spend most of the time doing that, but we'll probably have
other things to talk about to
CL: i'd like status reports on each of the modules
DS: that's a good idea
SVG 1.1 Second Edition progress
[17]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/Errata_in_SVG_1.1_Second_
Edition
[17] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/Errata_in_SVG_1.1_Second_Edition
CM: i've written a few more tests
CL: i see you've done my tests
... i've started reviewing the tests you wrote for my section
CM: pink cells in the tables indicate what needs to be done next
... how about we review ones in our own sections if the tests have
been written by someone else (e.g. me)
AG: a few from my table shouldn't need tests
<ChrisL> I will take painting-stroke-09-t.svg styling-pres-02-f.svg
script-elem-01-b.svg styling-elem-01-b.svg styling-elem-02-b.svg
text-ws-03-t.svg
AG: i've also updated the 1.1 test template
<ChrisL> not sure about types-dom-05-b.svg
CL: I also took the three in cameron's "other tests" section
CM: there are four errata not yet merged
... one from jonathan and three from doug
DS: they're all waiting on jonathan actually
ED: think we're in good shape for publishing this at the f2f?
CM: yes i think so
SVG in text/html issue status
DS: maciej has been going through open issues in the HTML WG and
proposing to close the SVG in text/html issue if there are no
objections within a few days
CL: nothing in the spec says that svg has to be rendered, only
parsed into a dom
<shepazu>
[18]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Aug/0706.htm
l
[18] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Aug/0706.html
CL: there should be sections talking about rendering of svg
... at least the basics of it, making a new block and rendering it
... if you had an implementation that merely stuffed the svg in the
dom and did nothing else with it, it would be conformant at the
moment
CM: i wonder what other reservations we still have that we can
remind them of
ED: whitelisting of elements, case fixup tables
DS: maybe we shouldn't talk about whitelisting until we finish the
integration spec
ED: could still keep the issue open though
CM: they plan on going to LC in october, can we get the integration
stuff there by then so that we can propose that as a solution?
DS: it's doable
... maybe, maybe not
... all we have to do is have the integration spec in LC the same
time as theirs
CM: can we even have it in normal WD? since that's one level before.
DS: yeah, i think so
... even a CR can reference a WD
... but we should be close to being done nevertheless
... i spent some time today trying to find instances where there
were inconsistencies in the browsers wrt various features
... i found some issues with foreignObject
... svg in xhtml is fairly consistent, when it's supported
... i don't think the behaviour's specified necessarily
... e.g. if you have a single html document and two different svg
fragments in it
... one has a use that uses something in the other fragment, all
three browsers seem to support that
... not sure if that falls out of the model or if it needs to be
specified
ED: I think it needs to be specified, i don't think SVG itself says
anything about it
CL: it's sort of an obvious thing, but in the spec we're fairly
careful to talk about either our own tree or an external document
... in particular there's no same-origin stuff affecting that
... i could imagine an impl triggering security code despite the
fact that it's in the same document, just a different svg fragment
DS: there are open questions about where that stuff gets specified
... and it would be nice if we found an example of something that
worked differently between browsers
CL: also we should send in a bunch of examples that do work
... there are things that work differently in the html serialization
DS: i'm not sure about that
CL: once it's implemented it should be the same
... but currently it's not
CM: so this will go in the integration spec?
DS: it's a possibility
ED: what kind of css box is created by an svg element? is it
specified?
CL: no, could be a new block formatting context
DS: i'm thinking two integration specs. one for svg in other specs,
and the other for foreign languages in svg.
... an obvious example is html in svg
ED: it'd be useful to clear up the things about foreignObject that
are different between browsers
... some things sort of work but it's not the most tested or good
working feature
DS: opera has some strange behaviour with foreignObject
... but it's illustrative of the considerations we need to make
... one thing is that essentially foreignObject should be treated
like a frame, and html should be rendered inside that space
... another is that it's getting rasterised at the wrong point
... and the third i noticed is that you can't really select text in
opera in an html foreignObject
ED: that might be a side effect of other bugs
DS: but it made me think of other problems i could see with mixing
svg and html, like occlusion/pointer-events
... we need to solve those for inline svg in html and vice versa
CM: are these related things to the html issue?
DS: yes we should point out there are many unresolved things, not
show stoppers, but need to be defined
... it may be that the html wg says to define them in svg
CL: which is fine, but html should normatively reference svg for
that
DS: we should mail the html wg about the issue
ED: i think a normative reference to svg would be a nice thing to
have
DS: the spec does normatively reference SVG Tiny 1.2 at this point
CM: interesting
ED: last time i looked at the spec there weren't any references at
all
DS: they've been added recently
CM: i wonder why it's a reference to 1.2T
CL: it has better wording
ED: but it doesn't cover all of the elements
CL: it doesn't reference 1.1 as well?
DS: no
CL: hmm
DS: we should probably ask for it to reference both
ED: in 1.2T it's a bit more limited in how references work
DS: 1.1 is what most browsers are doing anyway
ED: that's what's working in XHTML atm anyway
... so, the css box thing, limited external references with 1.2T
DS: the occlusion/pointer-events too
CM: and the parser table spec location
ED: you can mention as well that we're doing the 1.1 second edition
<scribe> ACTION: cameron to mail the htmlwg [recorded in
[19]http://www.w3.org/2009/08/19-svg-minutes.html#action01]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-2652 - Mail the htmlwg [on Cameron
McCormack - due 2009-08-26].
canvas breakout
<ed> [20]http://www.w3.org/mid/4A89FB30.6090109@w3.org
[20] http://www.w3.org/mid/4A89FB30.6090109@w3.org
DS: some people thought it needed to be broken out for accessibility
... but this is something i suggested a few years ago
... it makes sense to me that svg should be able to use canvas, and
to define stuff it one spec and reference it from both html and svg
ED: i took a quick look, i guess for the most part it looked fine
... the only concern i had is that the canvas element api was
inheriting from element
... if it's a complete separate interface with no inheritance i
think it's easier to make other interfaces inherit from that
... e.g. HTMLCanvasElement inherits from HTMLElement which inherits
from Element already
... unless you need to inherit it directly for some reason, i think
each spec (svg/html) should be doing the inheriting to Element
<scribe> ACTION: erik to mail public-canvas-api about inheriting
from Element [recorded in
[21]http://www.w3.org/2009/08/19-svg-minutes.html#action02]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-2653 - Mail public-canvas-api about
inheriting from Element [on Erik Dahlström - due 2009-08-26].
DS: one other thing, for pattern (and other uses) you can reference
an html <video>, <img> or <canvas> element
... that should be made more generic, so you can use an <svg:image>
element too
... this spec should probably just define that it can take any
raster based image element as an argument
... and that the host language defines what types that can be
ED: host language defines how you get the raster image that the
canvas draws
... that'd be pretty simple to pull out urls from the svg:image
element
CM: was roc working on painting arbitrary html elements to a canvas
at one point?
DS: don't recall
<ChrisL> form at [22]http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/19480/SVG200909/
[22] http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/19480/SVG200909/
Media Fragments use cases and requirements review
[23]http://www.w3.org/mid/20090813223118.GA26779@wok.mcc.id.au
[23] http://www.w3.org/mid/20090813223118.GA26779@wok.mcc.id.au
ED: assign actions for it?
... it's a pretty long document, might be useful for us to review it
CL: i think we should review it, it will directly affect us since we
have a video element
... it's not just a uc&r document, it's like a first draft -- ways
to solve it as well as the use cases it's planning to solve
... there'll be lots of other opportunities to review, but we should
do the review now
... i've started reading it
CM: when do they need comments by?
CL: i think they're planning to publish a second version of this
document soon
... maybe by the TP
ED: says publish in september
... i notice some errors in their svg snippets
[24]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/Media_Fragments_Review
[24] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/Media_Fragments_Review
<scribe> ACTION: cameron review media fragments uc&r document
[recorded in
[25]http://www.w3.org/2009/08/19-svg-minutes.html#action03]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-2654 - Review media fragments uc&r
document [on Cameron McCormack - due 2009-08-26].
<scribe> ACTION: erik review media fragments uc&r document [recorded
in [26]http://www.w3.org/2009/08/19-svg-minutes.html#action04]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-2655 - Review media fragments uc&r
document [on Erik Dahlström - due 2009-08-26].
filterRes rounding [www-svg]
[27]http://www.w3.org/mid/200907091214.09818.Dr.O.Hoffmann@gmx.de
[27] http://www.w3.org/mid/200907091214.09818.Dr.O.Hoffmann@gmx.de
ED: i think olaf is probably right in his analysis
... the issue is how you're interpreting filterRes and how you apply
it
... i'm wondering if he's saying that it's not really a pixel
length, just a unitless value
... i have an action to write tests for filterRes anyway
<scribe> ACTION: erik to investigate filterRes mail
[28]http://www.w3.org/mid/200907091214.09818.Dr.O.Hoffmann@gmx.de
[recorded in
[29]http://www.w3.org/2009/08/19-svg-minutes.html#action05]
[28] http://www.w3.org/mid/200907091214.09818.Dr.O.Hoffmann@gmx.de
<trackbot> Created ACTION-2656 - Investigate filterRes mail
[30]http://www.w3.org/mid/200907091214.09818.Dr.O.Hoffmann@gmx.de
[on Erik Dahlström - due 2009-08-26].
[30] http://www.w3.org/mid/200907091214.09818.Dr.O.Hoffmann@gmx.de
feGaussianBlur [www-svg]
[31]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2009Jul/0018.html
[31] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2009Jul/0018.html
ED: i think he's right here
... gaussian blur can depend on x and y
... so that you can blur it only one direction for example
CM: does the formula in the spec only handle a single std deviation
value?
ED: yes
... but maybe you're meant to infer the formula for handling x/y std
deviation
CM: well it would be good to have the actual formula in there
ED: yes it makes sense to split it into two parts like he provides
CL: what he proposes seems reasonable to me
CM: is this likely to be implemented un-interoperably?
ED: we had a bug on it before that ignored the y component of the
std deviation
CL: i agree about his points on the discontinuity
... if you allow both negative/positive values you're squaring it so
there's no problem
ED: i could get this done for 1.1SE as well as the filter module
... i agree i think it's no problem allowing negative numbers
CL: a zero value does result in no effect, it produces no blur
... i'd rather say a zero value results in no blur, and explicitly
say that both negative and zero are allowed
<scribe> ACTION: erik fix gaussian blur in 1.1SE and filters module
per
[32]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2009Jul/0018.html
[recorded in
[33]http://www.w3.org/2009/08/19-svg-minutes.html#action06]
[32] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2009Jul/0018.html
<trackbot> Created ACTION-2657 - Fix gaussian blur in 1.1SE and
filters module per
[34]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2009Jul/0018.html
[on Erik Dahlström - due 2009-08-26].
[34] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2009Jul/0018.html
CL: should have a test that goes through two positive values, and
one that goes from negative to positive through zero
action-2657: write test cases too
<trackbot> ACTION-2657 Fix gaussian blur in 1.1SE and filters module
per
[35]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2009Jul/0018.html
notes added
[35] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2009Jul/0018.html
Inheritance during SVG animation of CSS properties
[36]http://www.w3.org/mid/4A64F46A.6000900@mozilla.com
[36] http://www.w3.org/mid/4A64F46A.6000900@mozilla.com
CM: [waffling about the question, and what smil says about override
style sheets etc. for property animation]
ED: i'd like to investigate this further, look at bug, etc.
... and then i'll reply on www-svg
<scribe> ACTION: erik investigate "Inheritance during SVG animation
of CSS properties" and reply on www-svg
[37]http://www.w3.org/mid/4A64F46A.6000900@mozilla.com recorded in
[38]http://www.w3.org/2009/08/19-svg-minutes.html#action07]
[37] http://www.w3.org/mid/4A64F46A.6000900@mozilla.com
<trackbot> Created ACTION-2658 - Investigate "Inheritance during SVG
animation of CSS properties" and reply on www-svg
[39]http://www.w3.org/mid/4A64F46A.6000900@mozilla.com on Erik
Dahlström - due 2009-08-26].
[39] http://www.w3.org/mid/4A64F46A.6000900@mozilla.com
possible errata: SVG 1.1/1.2 tspan Element dx Attribute definition
[www-svg]
[40]http://www.w3.org/mid/8429F2BC-8CC3-4075-8096-793E02C1E6BD@btint
ernet.com
[40] http://www.w3.org/mid/8429F2BC-8CC3-4075-8096-793E02C1E6BD@btinternet.com
ED: he is finding differences in whitespace handling between nodes
... in text length calculations etc.
... no, this is a different thread sorry
CM: in his test he has a <tspan dy="2.5em"/>
CL: and another one with a space
... you could do it by putting a different font on the tspan, and
then having a dot or something for the space glyph
ED: the unicode spec forbids you from rendering spaces
CL: you can say how wide a space is though
... so you could have a font with an advance of 50px for a space
character
CM: ken stacey's reply says that the one with the space should
affect the position, while the one with no child content shouldn't
... and he quotes the spec
ED: so his reply is sufficient?
CM: i think so
... be good as a test case
<scribe> ACTION: cameron make a test for dx/dy like
[41]http://www.w3.org/mid/8429F2BC-8CC3-4075-8096-793E02C1E6BD@btint
ernet.com [recorded in
[42]http://www.w3.org/2009/08/19-svg-minutes.html#action08]
[41] http://www.w3.org/mid/8429F2BC-8CC3-4075-8096-793E02C1E6BD@btinternet.com
<trackbot> Created ACTION-2659 - Make a test for dx/dy like
[43]http://www.w3.org/mid/8429F2BC-8CC3-4075-8096-793E02C1E6BD@btint
ernet.com [on Cameron McCormack - due 2009-08-26].
[43] http://www.w3.org/mid/8429F2BC-8CC3-4075-8096-793E02C1E6BD@btinternet.com
CSS images module [www-svg]
[44]http://www.w3.org/mid/200907281206.29399.bert@w3.org
[44] http://www.w3.org/mid/200907281206.29399.bert@w3.org
CL: the csswg is looking at gradients at the moment
CM: as part of the images module?
CL: yes
... two syntaxes are proposed, one of which is supported by webkit
and one by firefox 3.6a
... so they're working out which to use
... they're looking to canvas about how to do gradients
CM: it'd be nice to know what differences there are between canvas
and svg gradients
CL: if there are any
<anthony>
[45]http://dev.w3.org/html5/canvas-api/canvas-2d-api.html#colors-and
-styles
[45] http://dev.w3.org/html5/canvas-api/canvas-2d-api.html#colors-and-styles
AG: looks like you can do conical gradients
The createRadialGradient(x0, y0, r0, x1, y1, r1) method takes six
arguments, the first three representing the start circle with origin
(x0, y0) and radius r0, and the last three representing the end
circle with origin (x1, y1) and radius r1.
scribe: it doesn't sound like an svg radial gradient
<anthony> This effectively creates a cone, touched by the two
circles defined in the creation of the gradient, with the part of
the cone before the start circle (0.0) using the color of the first
offset, the part of the cone after the end circle (1.0) using the
color of the last offset, and areas outside the cone untouched by
the gradient (transparent black).
AG: will csswg will take on different unit sizes?
CL: they'll probably allow you to use ems and so on, but not a
coordinate system
CM: in that mail bert mentions also image slices
[46]http://www.w3.org/TR/2009/WD-css3-images-20090723/#url
[46] http://www.w3.org/TR/2009/WD-css3-images-20090723/#url
CL: they could replace that example with logos.svg#viewBox(...)
<ChrisL> [47]http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-images/
[47] http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-images/
CL: they also define image sprites
ED: i like the image fallback thing
CM: the fallback syntax is different from svg's with paint servers
... might be good not to have it be different
ED: the feature itself is something that would be nice to have, not
sure about the syntax
<ChrisL> "Discussed adding gradients to css3-images. Straw poll
indicates yes,
<ChrisL> there is support for this in the WG. Several people
sympathized with
<ChrisL> Bert's argument argument against expanding the scope of CSS
too much,
<ChrisL> but none except Bert went so far as to object to the
proposal for
<ChrisL> gradients. Hyatt and roc will draft a combined proposal.
fantasai
<ChrisL> suggests simplifying the syntax.
<ChrisL> "
<ChrisL>
[48]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Aug/0128.html
[48] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Aug/0128.html
<scribe> ACTION: erik reply to bert's www-svg mail about css3-images
[recorded in
[49]http://www.w3.org/2009/08/19-svg-minutes.html#action09]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-2660 - Reply to bert's www-svg mail about
css3-images [on Erik Dahlström - due 2009-08-26].
Summary of Action Items
[NEW] ACTION: cameron make a test for dx/dy like
[50]http://www.w3.org/mid/8429F2BC-8CC3-4075-8096-793E02C1E6BD@btint
ernet.com [recorded in
[51]http://www.w3.org/2009/08/19-svg-minutes.html#action08]
[NEW] ACTION: cameron review media fragments uc&r document [recorded
in [52]http://www.w3.org/2009/08/19-svg-minutes.html#action03]
[NEW] ACTION: cameron to mail the htmlwg [recorded in
[53]http://www.w3.org/2009/08/19-svg-minutes.html#action01]
[NEW] ACTION: erik fix gaussian blur in 1.1SE and filters module per
[54]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2009Jul/0018.html
[recorded in
[55]http://www.w3.org/2009/08/19-svg-minutes.html#action06]
[NEW] ACTION: erik investigate "Inheritance during SVG animation of
CSS properties" and reply on www-svg
[56]http://www.w3.org/mid/4A64F46A.6000900@mozilla.com recorded in
[57]http://www.w3.org/2009/08/19-svg-minutes.html#action07]
[NEW] ACTION: erik reply to bert's www-svg mail about css3-images
[recorded in
[58]http://www.w3.org/2009/08/19-svg-minutes.html#action09]
[NEW] ACTION: erik review media fragments uc&r document [recorded in
[59]http://www.w3.org/2009/08/19-svg-minutes.html#action04]
[NEW] ACTION: erik to investigate filterRes mail
[60]http://www.w3.org/mid/200907091214.09818.Dr.O.Hoffmann@gmx.de
[recorded in
[61]http://www.w3.org/2009/08/19-svg-minutes.html#action05]
[NEW] ACTION: erik to mail public-canvas-api about inheriting from
Element [recorded in
[62]http://www.w3.org/2009/08/19-svg-minutes.html#action02]
[50] http://www.w3.org/mid/8429F2BC-8CC3-4075-8096-793E02C1E6BD@btinternet.com
[54] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2009Jul/0018.html
[56] http://www.w3.org/mid/4A64F46A.6000900@mozilla.com
[60] http://www.w3.org/mid/200907091214.09818.Dr.O.Hoffmann@gmx.de
[End of minutes]
--
Cameron McCormack ≝ http://mcc.id.au/
Received on Wednesday, 19 August 2009 08:10:33 UTC