- From: Erik Dahlstrom <ed@opera.com>
- Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 10:06:47 +0200
- To: "public-svg-wg@w3.org" <public-svg-wg@w3.org>
Minutes in HTML format:
http://www.w3.org/2009/04/27-svg-minutes.html
or as text here:
[1]W3C
[1] http://www.w3.org/
- DRAFT -
SVG Working Group Teleconference
27 Apr 2009
[2]Agenda
[2]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2009AprJun/0072.html
See also: [3]IRC log
[3] http://www.w3.org/2009/04/27-svg-irc
Attendees
Present
Shepazu, [IPcaller], heycam, ed, anthony
Regrets
Chair
heycam
Scribe
erik
Contents
* [4]Topics
1. [5]Publishing the Compositing spec
2. [6]Updating broken CSS2 links
3. [7]Referencing CSS 2.1 from SVG 1.1 Second Edition
4. [8]Pattern and rendering order
5. [9]�image-fit� vs preserveAspectRatio
6. [10]ref/params spec
* [11]Summary of Action Items
_________________________________________________________
<trackbot> Date: 27 April 2009
<shepazu> nope
<scribe> scribe: erik
<scribe> scribeNick: ed
Publishing the Compositing spec
CM: we discussed previously to publish the spec this week, sent some
comments today, but those doesn't need to hold up the publication
AG: those comments are good, mostly typo corrections, and a couple
of things that need to be explained
... as long as everyone else is ok with publishing
DS: has it been FPWD?
AG: this would be the FPWD
CM: parts were published before in the 1.2 full draft
DS: this is a new spec though
CM/DS: we can do the cleanups/typos after the FPWD
CM: are we resolved to publish compositing?
DS: any objections?
all: no objections, let's publish
RESOLUTION: to publish SVG Compositing as a FPWD
<scribe> ACTION: DS to publish the SVG Compositing spec [recorded in
[12]http://www.w3.org/2009/04/27-svg-minutes.html#action01]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-2527 - Publish the SVG Compositing spec
[on Doug Schepers - due 2009-05-04].
Updating broken CSS2 links
DS: doesn't need discussion?
CM: we need to decide how to deal with it, in the existing spec
...summary: because of the shortname /CSS2 and /REC-CSS2 are now
redirected to CSS21, various links in SVG 1.1 are now dangling
... full dated uri:s should have been used from the start in the
spec
... we can replace the SVG 1.1 spec links in place to fix the links
ED: are we still pointing to CSS2, or 2.1?
CM: css2
... if there are no objections, we can fix the links, have link to
the files that need to be switched
... there are a couple in tiny 1.2 too, not broken ones, but it's
now pointing to css21...and those features are still in css21 anyway
... but css2 is in the ref-section
... will forward the mail with the fixups
<scribe> ACTION: heycam to mail DS the info for fixing up CSS2 links
in the SVG 1.1 spec [recorded in
[13]http://www.w3.org/2009/04/27-svg-minutes.html#action02]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-2528 - Mail DS the info for fixing up CSS2
links in the SVG 1.1 spec [on Cameron McCormack - due 2009-05-04].
Referencing CSS 2.1 from SVG 1.1 Second Edition
CM: I'm not that familiar with what's changed
... one thing I know of is the webfonts stuff, which is now in CSS3
webfonts
DS: I don't think we should change SVG 1.1 that much
CM: probably more effort than its worth
... we don't want to change things, but rather to point to the more
up-to-date spec (CSS21)
... they may be in CR for awhile anyway
DS: it wouldn't be correct to change it
... we may be changing things dramatically for older svg useragents
... we should definately reference CSS21 going forward, but not in
the SVG 1.1 second edition
ED: yes, I agree with that
CM: fine with me
Pattern and rendering order
<heycam>
[14]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2009Apr/0088.html
[14] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2009Apr/0088.html
<heycam> ED: he's asking about the case when the pattern tile has
some overflow, asking how it's supposed to render
<heycam> ED: of course, UAs differ on how they interpret this
<heycam> ED: i think he's saying that the most logical solution
would be to use the painters model
<heycam> ED: he's saying that because at least opera and asv don't
support overflow, you can't do all types of overlapping patterns
[15]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2009Apr/0093.html
[15] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2009Apr/0093.html
<heycam> ED: he refers to the 17 known tiling patterns
<heycam> ED: in my response i ask him what kinds of patterns
couldn't you do
<heycam> ED: he replied with those 17 groups
<heycam> ED: because you can do quite a few types by rearranging the
tile itself
<heycam> ED: if you want to be able to do all these other ones, then
the pattern rendering would have to be a bit more advanced
<heycam> ED: the 1.1 spec doesn't really say how you render those
cases, it just says that you can have overflow:visible, doesn't say
what that's supposed to look like or handled
<heycam> ED: i haven't tested that many implementations, it would
probably be nice to have examples of each of these 17 groups of
periodic tilings, and to see what all of the current UAs do
<heycam> ED: one problem would be that there are not that many UAs
that support patterns
<heycam> ED: i don't think safari does it
<heycam> ED: batik, asv, opera and i think firefox 3
<heycam> ED: those should be tested for all those groups
<heycam> ED: i think batik/asv/opera all just take the rectangle and
tile that
<heycam> ED: i think for 1.1 Second Edition we should disallow it,
or state that it's undefined explicitly
<heycam> CM: would we say that overflow has no effect, and that it
always clips to the pattern viewport?
<heycam> ED: or we could say that it's undefined behaviour, so we
could leave it open for fixing later
<heycam> CM: is it worth having it undefined so that we can define
it later?
<heycam> DS: it's worth considering
<heycam> AG: should email olaf back
<heycam> ED: we should test the fallback behaviour; it's possible
it's just clipped to the viewport
<heycam> DS: this is definitely something we should consider
following up on, not necessarily something we should change now
<heycam> DS: IME patterns are useless sometimes
<heycam> ED: so we could just say that overflow:visible is undefined
<heycam> AG: raise an issue on svg 2 to define it
<scribe> ACTION: ed to add an svg 1.1 errata for making
overflow=visible on patterns be undefined behaviour and to raise an
issue on solving the pattern tiling for overflow=visible (core2)
[recorded in
[16]http://www.w3.org/2009/04/27-svg-minutes.html#action03]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-2529 - Add an svg 1.1 errata for making
overflow=visible on patterns be undefined behaviour and to raise an
issue on solving the pattern tiling for overflow=visible (core2) [on
Erik Dahlström - due 2009-05-04].
�image-fit� vs preserveAspectRatio
ED: so the only remaining issue really is the naming it seems
... the feature is useful for both CSS and SVG
CM: so it would be fine if UAs implented both pAR and
image-fit/content-fit
DS/CM/ED: we all like 'content-*'
<scribe> ACTION: ed to reply to the image-fit thread saying that the
SVG WG would prefer the name(s) 'content-*' [recorded in
[17]http://www.w3.org/2009/04/27-svg-minutes.html#action04]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-2530 - Reply to the image-fit thread
saying that the SVG WG would prefer the name(s) 'content-*' [on Erik
Dahlström - due 2009-05-04].
ref/params spec
DS: any reviews so far, besides heycam?
AG: not yet
ED: only read the proposals so far
DS: heycam has proposed an alternate syntax
... a suggestion about an alternate syntax that got rid of the ref
element, and directly put a functional values in the attribute
values
CM: yeah, wanted to see if I could get rid of the ref elements
DS: yeah, we talked about it at the TPAC
... paintservers are similar
... would it be easier to implement if it used the same mechanism?
... thinking about it now, I could implement it in script either way
CM: the weird part in my proposal is the content attribute, which is
similar to :content in css
... so it would be more general way of inserting text content
DS: one problem with tref, if the content doesn't resolve then the
user is left unknowing, nothing will be shown (no fallback content)
... so I liked the idea of allowing fallback content for tref
... are we talking about markup or just strings?
... tref just takes a string
... having fallback for tref and having content, not so keen on
having stirngs in attributes though
CM: in svg normally if you have a tref reference to a switch would
it give you the textContent or would it do the switch processing?
ED: I think it's just textContent
CM: a problem is that one of the role attributes is named 'content'
... the reason I chose 'content' is that it offers the same
functionality as the css content property
... what do you want in terms in of publication?
... might be good to publish this to let people know we want to add
this functionality
AG: yeah, we should get it out and get comments
CM: DS you could add some notes there, for these things
DS: what do you think of changing the values of things like
geometric values of things like x and y, to have functional values?
CM: you mean turning attributes into properties?
DS: did you see the primer?
<shepazu> [18]http://dev.w3.org/SVG/modules/ref/SVGRef.html
[18] http://dev.w3.org/SVG/modules/ref/SVGRef.html
<shepazu> [19]http://dev.w3.org/SVG/modules/ref/SVGRefPrimer.html
[19] http://dev.w3.org/SVG/modules/ref/SVGRefPrimer.html
DS: scroll down to the maps
... there's a little dot the, parameterising the cx and cy
... and same for links, to pass in links for e.g ads
CM: like the examples
DS: right now we cna only use functional notation for attribute
values in presentation attributes
... i'd like to extend that to all attributes
... one, why wouldn't you want to set anything with css?
... two, it would work for camerons constraints stuff
CM: it will be important to think about how this would work for
future things
DS: parameterised attribute values is probably how I would go with
extending the syntax
... so I'd like to say e.g 100%-5px without having it in a URL
CM: calc in CSS provides that
... if we're looking at promoting the attributes to properties, then
we could gain from that
... it makes enough sense to be able to put them there
<shepazu> [20]http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-values/#calc
[20] http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-values/#calc
CM: it does make sense to upgrade them to being properties
ED: all attributes?
DS: most, href would be an exception
ED: lists of things e.g, sometimes you might want to override only
parts of a list (or a path)
DS: anything that takes a list couldn't have a fallback
... any other attributes could have a fallback
<shepazu> <rect ... fill="param(color) blue" stroke="param(outline)
navy" />
CM: that might mean we have to think about types
DS: if we do it, it's done, there's going to be flaws with any model
we come up with
... i like functional values
... it builds on things laid out in css
<shepazu> width: calc(100%/3 - 2*1em - 2*1px);
CM: i would be in favor of investigating making existing svg
attributes into properties
DS: given that we want to allow this syntax anyway
... I think it makes sense for parameterising things like stroke and
fill
... might make sense for other things (I think it does)
... less work to specialcase the ones that aren't properties
CM: would make it easier to reuse content
DS: markers is one thing, had to duplicate the markers several times
to style them differently
ED: yeah, it's annoying that it behaves different from use, which do
inherit style into the shadowtree
DS: i like having an ref element, because you can animate those in
the document
... and we don't have the equivalent of <param> in svg
... if I wanted to use a button multiple times, I might like to
actually like to use this syntax
... I was thinking of the <animation> element, or the <image>
element, anything that references
... even the <use> element
AG: would we run into problems with optional arguments?
DS: <ref> have default values, but the example with the rect above,
you could also pass defaults there
... it's important
AG: multiple optional elements
... or multiple optional arguments
DS: this is a new class of things we could start doing...calc, or
url() and param
... there's an attr() function
CM: often used with css content
<anthony> transform="param(blah) translate(20 20)"
DS: we should talk to the csswg about this
AG: so, would the translate be an additonal transform, or a
fallback?
<shepazu> transform="scale(param(blah)) translate(20 20)"
DS: it's a list, so would need to be specialcased
AG: needs special consideration yeah
DS: might be handy with translateX,Y,Z
... will add notes with the functional notation for param
... and if we're not going to have an element, then it could be
applied to css as well
CM: yeah, that might be good
RESOLUTION: publish the param/ref spec as FPWD
<scribe> ACTION: heycam to get the ref spec building with the new
scripts [recorded in
[21]http://www.w3.org/2009/04/27-svg-minutes.html#action05]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-2531 - Get the ref spec building with the
new scripts [on Cameron McCormack - due 2009-05-04].
<scribe> ACTION: DS to integrate the new potential syntax, and
publish the ref spec [recorded in
[22]http://www.w3.org/2009/04/27-svg-minutes.html#action06]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-2532 - Integrate the new potential syntax,
and publish the ref spec [on Doug Schepers - due 2009-05-04].
<scribe> ACTION: heycam to look into making attributes into
properties, and potential problems with that [recorded in
[23]http://www.w3.org/2009/04/27-svg-minutes.html#action07]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-2533 - Look into making attributes into
properties, and potential problems with that [on Cameron McCormack -
due 2009-05-04].
rrs-agent, make minutes
Summary of Action Items
[NEW] ACTION: DS to integrate the new potential syntax, and publish
the ref spec [recorded in
[24]http://www.w3.org/2009/04/27-svg-minutes.html#action06]
[NEW] ACTION: DS to publish the SVG Compositing spec [recorded in
[25]http://www.w3.org/2009/04/27-svg-minutes.html#action01]
[NEW] ACTION: ed to add an svg 1.1 errata for making
overflow=visible on patterns be undefined behaviour and to raise an
issue on solving the pattern tiling for overflow=visible (core2)
[recorded in
[26]http://www.w3.org/2009/04/27-svg-minutes.html#action03]
[NEW] ACTION: ed to reply to the image-fit thread saying that the
SVG WG would prefer the name(s) 'content-*' [recorded in
[27]http://www.w3.org/2009/04/27-svg-minutes.html#action04]
[NEW] ACTION: heycam to get the ref spec building with the new
scripts [recorded in
[28]http://www.w3.org/2009/04/27-svg-minutes.html#action05]
[NEW] ACTION: heycam to look into making attributes into properties,
and potential problems with that [recorded in
[29]http://www.w3.org/2009/04/27-svg-minutes.html#action07]
[NEW] ACTION: heycam to mail DS the info for fixing up CSS2 links in
the SVG 1.1 spec [recorded in
[30]http://www.w3.org/2009/04/27-svg-minutes.html#action02]
[End of minutes]
_________________________________________________________
Minutes formatted by David Booth's [31]scribe.perl version 1.135
([32]CVS log)
$Date: 2009/04/27 08:03:46 $
_________________________________________________________
[31] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm
[32] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/
Scribe.perl diagnostic output
[Delete this section before finalizing the minutes.]
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.135 of Date: 2009/03/02 03:52:20
Check for newer version at [33]http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002
/scribe/
[33] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/
Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)
Succeeded: s/all: no/all: no objections, let's publish/
Succeeded: s/CSSREC2/REC-CSS2/
Succeeded: s/all/we all/
Found Scribe: erik
Found ScribeNick: ed
Default Present: Shepazu, [IPcaller], heycam, ed, anthony
Present: Shepazu [IPcaller] heycam ed anthony
Agenda: [34]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2009AprJu
n/0072.html
Found Date: 27 Apr 2009
Guessing minutes URL: [35]http://www.w3.org/2009/04/27-svg-minutes.html
People with action items: ds ed heycam
[34]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2009AprJun/0072.html
[35] http://www.w3.org/2009/04/27-svg-minutes.html
End of [36]scribe.perl diagnostic output]
[36] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm
--
Erik Dahlstrom, Core Technology Developer, Opera Software
Co-Chair, W3C SVG Working Group
Personal blog: http://my.opera.com/macdev_ed
Received on Monday, 27 April 2009 08:07:34 UTC