- From: Fred Esch <fesch@us.ibm.com>
- Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2016 08:33:41 -0500
- To: Joanmarie Diggs <jdiggs@igalia.com>
- Cc: SVG-A11y TF <public-svg-a11y@w3.org>, "Accessible Rich Internet Applications Working Group" <public-aria@w3.org>
- Message-Id: <201603161340.u2GDeG2Q032711@d01av02.pok.ibm.com>
Joanie, This is an ARIA question of what should be in the spec. I am not a proponent of AXTitleUIElement, I am just coding to the spec. I don't have any problem changing the tests :) Does this need to be on the ARIA agenda or the ARIA mapping groups agenda? Or are proposing that SVG do something different and we have a different name calculation than HTML? I don't think that would be a popular idea but I can bring it up in todays meeting. Regards, Fred Esch Watson, IBM, W3C Accessibility IBM Watson Watson Release Management and Quality From: Joanmarie Diggs <jdiggs@igalia.com> To: Fred Esch/Arlington/IBM@IBMUS Cc: SVG-A11y TF <public-svg-a11y@w3.org> Date: 03/15/2016 10:05 PM Subject: AXTitleUIElement (was Re: Test Assertions with Tables) Hey all. When looking at Fred's updated assertions, I noticed that exposure of aria-labelledby via non-null RELATION_LABELLED_BY (ATK/AT-SPI2) and non-null AXTitleUIElement (Mac) are now included in the expectations. I had not explicitly implemented that in WebKit as part of my initial commit for a couple of reasons: 1. From a functional point of view, this exposure is primarily needed for controls/widgets. 2. This exposure is not needed for the name computation. Now that it's in your assertions, and having verified we aren't getting it "for free" from the Core ARIA support, it seems I need to do it. ;) Mea culpa. To rectify this, I filed https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=155481 and proposed a patch for ATK as well as asked Chris (Apple accessibility developer) about his platform. The relevant comment is comment 9, content here for your convenience: ================================== (In reply to comment #3) > Chris: The attached patch only does the exposure for ATK, though I did > update the layout test for the Mac which currently indicates the elements > are not being exposed via AXTitleUIElement. > > According to the current expectations of the SVG Accessibility Task Force > [1], there are a number of instances in which the elements should be exposed > via AXTitleUIElement. Could you please either confirm that their > expectations are correct (in which case I'll do a new patch that also > handles exposure for the Mac), or let me know that they are wrong (in which > case, I'll pass that along to them)? > THere has been some talk of exposing labelledby- as elements in title UI Elements, but so far we've just take the string concatenation. We could fix that in the future, but i don't know if i've seen a real world case where it's made a difference yet ================================== Given his response, I subsequently tried to come up with a real-world test case in which VoiceOver did the wrong thing as result of aria-labelledby being included in the computed name string but not also exposed via AXTitleUIElement. I couldn't come up with one. And the platform expert doesn't seem to have one. As a result, what has just been committed does implement your stated expectation for ATK; it does not, however, for AX API. (https://trac.webkit.org/changeset/198254) So now we're at an interesting spot. On the one hand, you have this expectation -- an expectation based on the Core AccName spec which clearly states for the Mac: aria-labelledby: If aria-labelledby references a single element, expose the labeling relationship as element AXTitleUIElement And that statement is also found in the 1.0 spec. So from the spec (and your) point of view, the expectations defined on your wiki are 100% correct and AXTitleUIElement should be part of the implementation. But from the user agent and AT standpoint: If the name is correctly exposed via the computed name string, and if exposure as per the spec will not have any impact because the AT doesn't need that exposure, why should the user agent do unneeded extra work? "Because the spec says so," does not strike me as a particularly compelling reason. It seems to me that we have at least a couple of options: 1. Provide the real-world test case for the Mac that I failed to come up with in which exposing the value of aria-labelledby in the name computation, but failing to also expose it through AXTitleUIElement, makes VoiceOver (or another OS X AT) do the wrong thing for SVG. 2. Remove the AXTitleUIElement exposure requirement from your testing expectations; verify exposure through AXDescription. What you're presumably most interested in testing is that the SVG AAM computed name string is being computed correctly, and this can be verified through the value of AXDescription. Furthermore, because WebKit already exposes aria-labelledby via AXTitleUIElement for Core ARIA, we can already prove implementability. 3. <Your suggestion here> If you have questions -- or better yet, that real-world test case which illustrates AXTitleUIElement exposure is needed for SVG -- please let me know. Thanks! --joanie On 03/11/2016 03:21 PM, Fred Esch wrote: > All, > > Please let me know what needs to be fixed with the Test Assertions with > Tables > < https://www.w3.org/wiki/SVG_Accessibility/Testing/Test_Assertions_with_Tables >. > This was generated from the current Test Assertions in the wiki and I > can regenerate it if you want things changed. I am aware of the testable > statement being repeated and sometimes the upper on drops part of the > expected result. > > > Regards, > > Fred Esch > Watson, IBM, W3C Accessibility > IBM Watson Watson Release Management and Quality > > > --1__ BBF5EBDFDA291E8f9e8a93df938690918c0ABBF5EBDFDA291E Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-Disposition: inline <html><body><p>Joanie,<br><br>This is an ARIA question of what should be in the spec. I am not a proponent of AXTitleUIElement, I am just coding to the spec. I don't have any problem changing the tests :) Does this need to be on the ARIA agenda or the ARIA mapping groups agenda? Or are proposing that SVG do something different and we have a different name calculation than HTML? I don't think that would be a popular idea but I can bring it up in todays meeting.<br><br> <table border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"><tr valign="top"><td width="473" colspan="2" valign="middle"><div align="center"><font size="4" face="Verdana">Regards, <br><br>Fred Esch <br>Watson, IBM, W3C Accessibility</font></div></td></tr> <tr valign="top"><td width="130" valign="middle"><img src="cid:1__=0ABBF5EBDFDA291E8f9e8a93df938690918c0AB@" width="163" height="23" alt="IBM Watson" align="bottom"></td><td width="342" valign="middle"><font size="4" face="Verdana">Watson Release Management and Quality </font></td></tr></table><br><br><img width="16" height="16" src="cid:2__=0ABBF5EBDFDA291E8f9e8a93df938690918c0AB@" border="0" alt="Inactive hide details for Joanmarie Diggs ---03/15/2016 10:05:27 PM---Hey all. When looking at Fred's updated assertions, I not"><font color="#424282">Joanmarie Diggs ---03/15/2016 10:05:27 PM---Hey all. When looking at Fred's updated assertions, I noticed that exposure of</font><br><br><font size="2" color="#5F5F5F">From: </font><font size="2">Joanmarie Diggs <jdiggs@igalia.com></font><br><font size="2" color="#5F5F5F">To: </font><font size="2">Fred Esch/Arlington/IBM@IBMUS</font><br><font size="2" color="#5F5F5F">Cc: </font><font size="2">SVG-A11y TF <public-svg-a11y@w3.org></font><br><font size="2" color="#5F5F5F">Date: </font><font size="2">03/15/2016 10:05 PM</font><br><font size="2" color="#5F5F5F">Subject: </font><font size="2">AXTitleUIElement (was Re: Test Assertions with Tables)</font><br><hr width="100%" size="2" align="left" noshade style="color:#8091A5; "><br><br><br><tt>Hey all.<br><br>When looking at Fred's updated assertions, I noticed that exposure of<br>aria-labelledby via non-null RELATION_LABELLED_BY (ATK/AT-SPI2) and<br>non-null AXTitleUIElement (Mac) are now included in the expectations. I<br>had not explicitly implemented that in WebKit as part of my initial<br>commit for a couple of reasons:<br><br>1. From a functional point of view, this exposure is primarily needed<br> for controls/widgets.<br>2. This exposure is not needed for the name computation.<br><br>Now that it's in your assertions, and having verified we aren't getting<br>it "for free" from the Core ARIA support, it seems I need to do it. ;)<br>Mea culpa.<br><br>To rectify this, I filed </tt><tt><a href="https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=155481">https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=155481</a></tt><tt><br>and proposed a patch for ATK as well as asked Chris (Apple accessibility<br>developer) about his platform. The relevant comment is comment 9,<br>content here for your convenience:<br><br>==================================<br>(In reply to comment #3)<br>> Chris: The attached patch only does the exposure for ATK, though I did<br>> update the layout test for the Mac which currently indicates the elements<br>> are not being exposed via AXTitleUIElement.<br>><br>> According to the current expectations of the SVG Accessibility Task Force<br>> [1], there are a number of instances in which the elements should be<br>exposed<br>> via AXTitleUIElement. Could you please either confirm that their<br>> expectations are correct (in which case I'll do a new patch that also<br>> handles exposure for the Mac), or let me know that they are wrong (in<br>which<br>> case, I'll pass that along to them)?<br>><br><br>THere has been some talk of exposing labelledby- as elements in title UI<br>Elements, but so far we've just take the string concatenation. We could<br>fix that in the future, but i don't know if i've seen a real world case<br>where it's made a difference yet<br>==================================<br><br>Given his response, I subsequently tried to come up with a real-world<br>test case in which VoiceOver did the wrong thing as result of<br>aria-labelledby being included in the computed name string but not also<br>exposed via AXTitleUIElement. I couldn't come up with one. And the<br>platform expert doesn't seem to have one. As a result, what has just<br>been committed does implement your stated expectation for ATK; it does<br>not, however, for AX API. (</tt><tt><a href="https://trac.webkit.org/changeset/198254">https://trac.webkit.org/changeset/198254</a></tt><tt>)<br><br>So now we're at an interesting spot. On the one hand, you have this<br>expectation -- an expectation based on the Core AccName spec which<br>clearly states for the Mac:<br><br> aria-labelledby:<br><br> If aria-labelledby references a single element, expose the labeling<br> relationship as element AXTitleUIElement<br><br>And that statement is also found in the 1.0 spec. So from the spec (and<br>your) point of view, the expectations defined on your wiki are 100%<br>correct and AXTitleUIElement should be part of the implementation.<br><br>But from the user agent and AT standpoint: If the name is correctly<br>exposed via the computed name string, and if exposure as per the spec<br>will not have any impact because the AT doesn't need that exposure, why<br>should the user agent do unneeded extra work? "Because the spec says<br>so," does not strike me as a particularly compelling reason.<br><br>It seems to me that we have at least a couple of options:<br><br>1. Provide the real-world test case for the Mac that I failed to come<br> up with in which exposing the value of aria-labelledby in the name<br> computation, but failing to also expose it through AXTitleUIElement,<br> makes VoiceOver (or another OS X AT) do the wrong thing for SVG.<br><br>2. Remove the AXTitleUIElement exposure requirement from your testing<br> expectations; verify exposure through AXDescription. What you're<br> presumably most interested in testing is that the SVG AAM computed<br> name string is being computed correctly, and this can be verified<br> through the value of AXDescription. Furthermore, because WebKit<br> already exposes aria-labelledby via AXTitleUIElement for Core ARIA,<br> we can already prove implementability.<br><br>3. <Your suggestion here><br><br>If you have questions -- or better yet, that real-world test case which<br>illustrates AXTitleUIElement exposure is needed for SVG -- please let me<br>know.<br><br>Thanks!<br>--joanie<br><br>On 03/11/2016 03:21 PM, Fred Esch wrote:<br>> All,<br>> <br>> Please let me know what needs to be fixed with the Test Assertions with<br>> Tables<br>> <</tt><tt><a href="https://www.w3.org/wiki/SVG_Accessibility/Testing/Test_Assertions_with_Tables">https://www.w3.org/wiki/SVG_Accessibility/Testing/Test_Assertions_with_Tables</a></tt><tt>>.<br>> This was generated from the current Test Assertions in the wiki and I<br>> can regenerate it if you want things changed. I am aware of the testable<br>> statement being repeated and sometimes the upper on drops part of the<br>> expected result.<br>> <br>> <br>> Regards,<br>> <br>> Fred Esch<br>> Watson, IBM, W3C Accessibility<br>> IBM Watson Watson Release Management and Quality<br>> <br>> <br>> <br><br></tt><br><br><BR> </body></html> --1__ BBF5EBDFDA291E8f9e8a93df938690918c0ABBF5EBDFDA291E-- --0__ BBF5EBDFDA291E8f9e8a93df938690918c0ABBF5EBDFDA291E Content-type: image/gif; name="08538211.gif" Content-Disposition: inline; filename="08538211.gif" Content-ID: <1__ BBF5EBDFDA291E8f9e8a93df938690918c0AB@> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAAKMAAAAXCAMAAABQ6Q/RAAADAFBMVEXIx8cxLS5MSUrW1dXx8fE/ Ozzj4+N2c3SRj49oZWaEgYKsq6uenZ26ubmbm5v29vZ7e3tTU1M7OzsfHx/FxcX39/eamppmZmaR j5AgICCqqqrR0dFaV1gAAAAjHyD///8AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAADe7fL7AAADE0lEQVR4nM2WiW7kIAyGTbhz9O6eCL//U6bYGJJOst2dlaqppUm4 +fhtnAH8+gb7sroZxodWGZfA5UxP52+Ic2qVEbLDxujTLXnOTHydSDxNdC7DR+NvYQK02PLQYBDn z5dRw04GAPibKIBec2GKuZjyrtbosVZr72J397Xyc+suPshsiOUBvRb4xavlzYoA2tI+XEQTFDfT rkCFiFLIec8Y82jQ0dIhjOU5lmWGa254owKe/J5xPDBqdYHLphZBm08Zi5/nOnEsEUmHwiG6cx3X Z6k8ID5c6kgHHC4YlblkJHcNlotO7Xp0RVP6lLFIPtTmsuDQDn+FGT4YTy3OXcTFEy85VUYonQMQ WHWopSIdR83aTYRs5bBD9cz+VjBjyI3RbVEkSu7ed/XF8r18ExXF25ZJiWnk/RhD1S1JlFT5mLGc B0KYNJG5rtEkLhjPGUVz32Lh2iw+k68WnhqJjeZTldqBr27dFkCz2mlyooxcac0zJUyWM8YKFnn8 KLofdFy7brvwXLctZs+6KScOTrSr6uft2y4SmJqa+tUcxPeKY/iEcc4+W8qNfYUrdSTtYvnRrfE1 rgk1QOqBs207ideoc2gLJGFMtEQ6YQy53OvwA1DifmM86PhQKxSZ66+uI/o6zdVcMmwtRHrBiGbm XWysp2FTjbERHHUEPXAgtDRxrY5Vfsvph6PebGnFvmcswSnp2PcDcECPdYzkz2M8ziBH9rtl8c/3 Gh/X9TtuOhphWyToedNUzEp0boyZ8zQNnHLrXIhLy5jplBHVINnHmKj+415Lamt+QAdWDkphmcC5 mh8lodvqNsOqDyHw5GjamHjKGLKEj66LuK7i5XfmsVbwdX1+leL9vTiLIiTy8qFFjHwygjQA7j46 sUc/oxpoY4w9YzRW+RbsZeJ135mnJ9ErCuv8T4yqCGH6zYoGOyOXDowSqJ5yRtq6jzq2/z2IL7+l H58eaWxMiULLlRjUOCU2+kfKNkkDuam8KJP6eqPB0+eIU7PexswpjQdG5AAJEOL1X+vPt/7/cuLg UP7L/QtHfANvSEKvsxvttAAAAABJRU5ErkJggg= --0__ BBF5EBDFDA291E8f9e8a93df938690918c0ABBF5EBDFDA291E Content-type: image/gif; name="graycol.gif" Content-Disposition: inline; filename="graycol.gif" Content-ID: <2__ BBF5EBDFDA291E8f9e8a93df938690918c0AB@> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 R0lGODlhEAAQAKECAMzMzAAAAP///wAAACH5BAEAAAIALAAAAAAQABAAAAIXlI+py+0PopwxUbpu ZRfKZ2zgSJbmSRYAIf4fT3B0aW1pemVkIGJ5IFVsZWFkIFNtYXJ0U2F2ZXIhAAA7 --0__ BBF5EBDFDA291E8f9e8a93df938690918c0ABBF5EBDFDA291E--
Received on Wednesday, 16 March 2016 13:40:57 UTC