Minutes: March 2, 2016 SVG A11y Task Force

http://www.w3.org/2016/03/02-svg-a11y-minutes.html <http://www.w3.org/2016/03/02-svg-a11y-minutes.html> 

Text:
IRC log of svg-a11y on 2016-03-02

Timestamps are in UTC.

19:02:32 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #svg-a11y
19:02:32 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/03/02-svg-a11y-irc <http://www.w3.org/2016/03/02-svg-a11y-irc>
19:02:52 [fesch]
chair: fred
19:04:21 [fesch]
agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-a11y/2016Feb/0073.html <https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-a11y/2016Feb/0073.html>
19:04:30 [chaals]
Present+ chaals
19:04:36 [Rich]
scribe: Rich
19:05:12 [Rich]
Topic: Agenda additions?
19:05:16 [Rich]
fred: no
19:05:20 [Rich]
Topic: Open Actions
19:05:23 [fesch]
Topic: Open Actions
19:06:11 [shepazu]
https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/33280/pointer-events-2016/ <https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/33280/pointer-events-2016/>
19:06:30 [Rich]
doug: The timeline for the pointer events working group charter came to a close. If any AC reps are interested this is a useful thing for accessibility
19:06:45 [Rich]
RRSAgent, make log public
19:06:52 [chaals]
action-1602?
19:06:52 [trackbot]
action-1602 -- Charles McCathie Nevile to Find some stem graphics to consider as use cases -- due 2015-06-26 -- OPEN
19:06:52 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/svg-a11y-tf/track/actions/1602 <http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/svg-a11y-tf/track/actions/1602>
19:06:53 [Rich]
Topic Action 1602
19:07:02 [Rich]
Action-1602?
19:07:02 [trackbot]
Action-1602 -- Charles McCathie Nevile to Find some stem graphics to consider as use cases -- due 2015-06-26 -- OPEN
19:07:02 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/svg-a11y-tf/track/actions/1602 <http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/svg-a11y-tf/track/actions/1602>
19:07:33 [Rich]
Charles: I do want to keep that.
19:07:47 [Rich]
Charles: the use cases I have been working on are simple at the moment
19:07:51 [chaals]
action-1602 due in 3 months
19:07:51 [trackbot]
Set action-1602 Find some stem graphics to consider as use cases due date to 2016-06-02.
19:07:57 [Rich]
Charles: Want the date moved out 3 months
19:08:19 [Rich]
action-1603?
19:08:19 [trackbot]
action-1603 -- Charles McCathie Nevile to Work with jasonw, markkuh and the universe to discover how people do interaction… -- due 2015-07-17 -- OPEN
19:08:19 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/svg-a11y-tf/track/actions/1603 <http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/svg-a11y-tf/track/actions/1603>
19:08:56 [Rich]
Charles: I am close this as not going to get done as action
19:09:11 [Rich]
RESOLUTION: Close action-1603
19:09:20 [Rich]
action-1753?
19:09:20 [trackbot]
action-1753 -- Jason White to Look at svg in gamepadapi, push api, etc due 20160113 -- due 2016-01-15 -- OPEN
19:09:20 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/svg-a11y-tf/track/actions/1753 <http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/svg-a11y-tf/track/actions/1753>
19:09:38 [Rich]
fred: Jason and I went through this. I have a later topic on this
19:09:46 [Rich]
action-2001?
19:09:46 [trackbot]
action-2001 -- Amelia Bellamy-Royds to Draft a new definition of including elements that requires title/description to be non-empty. -- due 2016-01-22 -- OPEN
19:09:46 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/svg-a11y-tf/track/actions/2001 <http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/svg-a11y-tf/track/actions/2001>
19:10:05 [Rich]
amelia: there are 3 items in ther that fall under the new language in the svg-aam spec.
19:10:08 [fesch]
action-2002
19:10:08 [trackbot]
action-2002 -- Amelia Bellamy-Royds to Draft new language for svg-aam. -- due 2016-01-22 -- OPEN
19:10:09 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/svg-a11y-tf/track/actions/2002 <http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/svg-a11y-tf/track/actions/2002>
19:10:22 [fesch]
action-2004
19:10:22 [trackbot]
action-2004 -- Amelia Bellamy-Royds to Look into github issue #137 -- due 2016-01-22 -- OPEN
19:10:22 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/svg-a11y-tf/track/actions/2004 <http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/svg-a11y-tf/track/actions/2004>
19:10:28 [Rich]
amelia: I have not started on these yet but I am going to modify the SVG definitions which we can use in both specs.
19:10:43 [AmeliaBR]
http://ameliabr.github.io/svgwg/build/publish/render.html#RenderingTree <http://ameliabr.github.io/svgwg/build/publish/render.html#RenderingTree>
19:11:23 [Rich]
amelia: basically this adds up to creating standard definitions for elements that are rendered or not rendered
19:11:49 [Rich]
amelia: an important thing on how this cascades into the accessibility mappings. invisible and rendered are not the same
19:12:57 [Rich]
amelia: display:none is not rendered. desc. is not rendered. These are important as the svg pointer events can be active for on interactive hit regions even though something is not visibly rendered
19:13:38 [Rich]
amelia: At the same time this covers all the elements that should NEVER be rendered as they have no rendering on the screen. … no mater what you do to these they will not map into the accessibility tree
19:14:07 [Rich]
amelia: my hope is that by having clear definitions here we can clarify these in the accessibility mappings
19:14:43 [Rich]
fred: it looks like we don’t have any feedback for either of these.
19:15:02 [Rich]
amelia: I started drafting a section on focus management.
19:15:08 [AmeliaBR]
http://ameliabr.github.io/svgwg/build/publish/interact.html#Focus <http://ameliabr.github.io/svgwg/build/publish/interact.html#Focus>
19:15:40 [Rich]
amelia: Rich had originally mapped the HTML spec. into the SVG spec.
19:16:15 [Rich]
amelia: the group wanted one code base and resolved to link to the HTML spec. and now we need to identify the parts of the HTML spec. that are different.
19:16:43 [Rich]
amelia: have done that by defining focusable and non-focusable content … including via tabindex
19:16:59 [Rich]
amelia: then we need to add all the new text for keyboard accessibility.
19:17:07 [AmeliaBR]
https://github.com/w3c/svgwg/pull/55 <https://github.com/w3c/svgwg/pull/55>
19:17:13 [Rich]
amelia: I will be covering this with the svg working group tomorrow
19:17:27 [Rich]
fred: what is an svg element that has zoom and pan controls.
19:17:43 [Rich]
amelia: zoom and pan are not currently implemented in any browsers
19:18:03 [Rich]
amelia: the old Adobe SVG viewer was the only one that ever implemented this.
19:18:23 [Rich]
amelia: the wording have in there states that “if the control exists” ...
19:18:43 [Rich]
fred: joanie might ask if there is a zoom and pan control for that element
19:19:03 [Rich]
amelia: there is a property that turns them on but it has not been implemented yet
19:19:21 [Rich]
fred: when to include and when to not
19:20:13 [Rich]
Rich: If this has not been implemented it will ultimately go as there needs to be 2 implementations
19:20:43 [Rich]
amelia: at this point it is in the SVG2 spec.
19:21:42 [Rich]
Doug: SVG2 spec. to go to CR in April
19:22:06 [Rich]
Rich: concerned about syncing ARIA 1.1 with html 5.1 and svg2
19:22:41 [chaals]
q+
19:23:15 [chaals]
ack sh
19:23:19 [shepazu]
q-
19:23:32 [Rich]
Rich: the svg2 spec. points to the html 5.1 spec. but this is not stable yet. In previous versions we had based ours on html 5
19:24:33 [Rich]
Rich: the html5.1 spec is entirely different from html5
19:24:51 [Rich]
Rich: some controls are absent - like details/summary and dialog
19:25:11 [Rich]
Charles: the goal is to get html 5.1 done by mid- year without those pieces that are not implemented
19:25:52 [Rich]
amelia: there are modal dialog boxes and you have disable a lot of tabindex stuff that is outside the dialog (it becomes inert)
19:26:09 [Rich]
amelia: user controls - there is a controls attribute.
19:26:17 [chaals]
q+
19:26:38 [Rich]
amelia: I could write the phrase with a controls attribute turned on and off <audio> and <video>
19:26:54 [Rich]
charles: rewrite it so that the user agent puts the controls in there
19:27:26 [chaals]
s/so that the user agent/so that it is focusable if the user agent/
19:27:27 [Rich]
amelia: the author can say create pause controls but it does not mean the browser will make them for other ones
19:27:48 [chaals]
[You could probably do this via the controls IDL attribute, but I'd need to check that]
19:28:03 [Rich]
amelia: for a testable statement … it is a 2-step. The author adds the controls addribute and then there would be a controls on the audio/ video
19:28:23 [Rich]
fred: what about your foreign object that creates a scrollable region?
19:28:34 [Rich]
amelia: it is not something that is really easy to query
19:29:12 [Rich]
fred: my concern is that if we make it difficult to test. But since they can put tabindex on anything.
19:29:34 [Rich]
amelia: I would rather have more things focusable than things are under user control
19:29:50 [Rich]
q?
19:29:54 [fesch]
q?
19:29:57 [chaals]
ack me
19:30:13 [Rich]
amelia: your concern is the wording is too general
19:30:21 [Rich]
fred: you will make conditions that are not testable
19:30:42 [Rich]
charles: for the scrolling case the browser will know if a region is scrollable
19:30:53 [Rich]
charles: if you use specific kinds of things you can force that.
19:31:01 [Rich]
charles: it is a condition that there is a scroll bar
19:31:29 [Rich]
amelia: I think in all of these it is easy to create a test to create the situations unlike zoom and pan that are not implemented
19:31:50 [Rich]
amelia: as far as getting a reasonable test suite it should be possible
19:32:04 [Rich]
amelia: I have this separate paragraph for links
19:32:54 [Rich]
amelia: is the old Opera you could not get to a link without a tabindex
19:33:00 [Rich]
amelia: Presto
19:33:50 [Rich]
Rich: all browsers put links in the tab sequence
19:34:57 [Rich]
charles: Presto did not have a full tab cycle with anchors. It did more like forms mode in jaws
19:36:01 [Rich]
amelia: it would be my preference as an author to not get anchors be in the tab sequence by default
19:36:17 [Rich]
: http://ameliabr.github.io/svgwg/build/publish/interact.html#Focus <http://ameliabr.github.io/svgwg/build/publish/interact.html#Focus>
19:37:14 [Rich]
amelia: I will see what the svg working group says about this. it would be good to have the focusable attribute from svg tiny 1.2
19:38:31 [Rich]
amelia: you could have anything with a title/tooltip it is an optional friendly thing to provide a keyboard way to reveal the tooltip
19:39:06 [Rich]
amelia: the text is based on what is in the html spec.
19:39:18 [Rich]
amelia: non-rendered text does not receive focus
19:39:36 [Rich]
amelia: I pulled text out from HTML regarding activation behavior.
19:40:03 [Rich]
amelia: if you have something focusable by tabindex you can make it clickable via script
19:40:49 [Rich]
amelia: I will bring this up at the SVG working group tomorrow
19:41:02 [Rich]
amelia: please try to review beforehand
19:41:57 [shepazu]
q+
19:42:04 [Rich]
amelia: i do have cleanup for the accessibility mappings
19:42:09 [Rich]
q+
19:43:00 [Rich]
Action-2003?
19:43:00 [trackbot]
Action-2003 -- Richard Schwerdtfeger to Investigate how role=none interacts with other aria- attributes, in other aria specs. -- due 2016-03-01 -- OPEN
19:43:00 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/svg-a11y-tf/track/actions/2003 <http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/svg-a11y-tf/track/actions/2003>
19:43:39 [Rich]
Action-2008?
19:43:40 [trackbot]
Action-2008 -- Doug Schepers to define authoring practices related to links -- due 2016-02-02 -- OPEN
19:43:40 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/svg-a11y-tf/track/actions/2008 <http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/svg-a11y-tf/track/actions/2008>
19:43:55 [Rich]
fred: this is authoring practices relative to links
19:43:57 [Rich]
q+
19:44:06 [chaals]
q+
19:44:20 [Rich]
ack shepazu
19:45:15 [Rich]
Rich: I did speak with David Bolter at Mozilla to focus on Mozilla, waiting for them to get back
19:45:35 [Rich]
fred: What do we want to do with authoring practices
19:45:42 [Rich]
amelia: I would like one at some point
19:46:02 [Rich]
fred: is it ok if we just track ideas in the mean time on a wiki?
19:46:08 [Rich]
amelia: that is a start
19:46:17 [Rich]
amelia: do you have a work in progress?
19:46:29 [Rich]
charles: I have a pile of pieces
19:46:48 [Rich]
Action: charles find out where the authoring pieces are
19:46:48 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-2016 - Find out where the authoring pieces are [on Charles McCathie Nevile - due 2016-03-09].
19:47:36 [Rich]
charles: there is a scratch space here:
19:47:40 [chaals]
-> https://github.com/SVG-access-W3CG/new-note-draft <https://github.com/SVG-access-W3CG/new-note-draft> scratch space for authoring guidance
19:47:52 [chaals]
close action-2016
19:47:52 [trackbot]
Closed action-2016.
19:48:23 [Rich]
fred: Does that work to put whatever you need in there?
19:48:48 [Rich]
RESOLUTION: use that wiki scratch space for accessible practices
19:48:55 [Rich]
q+
19:49:18 [AmeliaBR]
s/wiki/GitHub repo/
19:49:46 [Rich]
Rich: people in the education publishing industry will be meeting with me next week on svg a11y
19:50:06 [fesch]
Topic: Problems with SVG in W3C docs
19:50:29 [Rich]
fred: I was talking with Jason last week on game pad to discuss what should be done
19:50:42 [Rich]
fred: the examples are not accessible
19:50:54 [Rich]
fred: we would need to redraw the entire image to make it accessible
19:51:19 [Rich]
fred: what do people feel we should do with these?
19:51:31 [chaals]
q+
19:51:49 [Rich]
amelia: I don’t think we want to do as a representation of good practices to have to have to rip apart things and rebuild them
19:52:02 [Rich]
ack Rich
19:52:24 [Rich]
chaals: I diametrically disagree
19:53:19 [Rich]
chaals: if that means that we need to rip things apart and start again then so be it. If we had the guidelines to start we would not have a problem.
19:53:43 [Rich]
chaals: if we start badly down the wrong way you are not going ot have a good time
19:54:22 [Rich]
chaals: while we many not be able to rip down every diagram from the spec., we should point out what needs to be done and do a couple of them. they would be able to then do things more efficiently
19:54:43 [Rich]
amelia: do a certain point that makes sense. so, need to do proper grouping.
19:54:58 [Rich]
amelia: what I am looking at came right out of inkscape
19:55:21 [Rich]
chaals: strip it down to its component parts and restructure
19:56:08 [Rich]
chaals: we need to write down exactly what we did to redo things
19:57:03 [Rich]
fred: do we want to try to fix every w3c document that comes through?
19:57:13 [Rich]
chaals: we can’t ignore them and say they be fine.
19:57:51 [Rich]
chaals: there is a set of diagrams that are all related. … take one of the ones I did and turn it into the other ciagrams.
19:57:58 [Rich]
s/ciagrams/diagrams/
19:58:10 [Rich]
chaals: there is no magic
19:58:30 [Rich]
fred: in reviews we will drag people into this group and try to do something for them
19:58:55 [Rich]
fred: every document is written by a differnt group or task force
19:59:20 [Rich]
fred: if we go through 160 specs. we will have 400 people that will not how to do it right
19:59:35 [chaals]
s/not how/know how/
19:59:41 [Rich]
RRSagent, make log public
19:59:52 [Rich]
RRSAgent, make minutes
19:59:52 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/03/02-svg-a11y-minutes.html <http://www.w3.org/2016/03/02-svg-a11y-minutes.html> Rich

Rich Schwerdtfeger
Round Rock, TX