- From: Richard Schwerdtfeger <schwer@us.ibm.com>
- Date: Thu, 14 May 2015 10:45:17 -0500
- To: public-svg-a11y@w3.org
- Message-ID: <OFF4092EB3.5CD89AC2-ON86257E45.005665C3-86257E45.00568B2F@us.ibm.com>
Web:
https://www.w3.org/2015/05/08-svg-a11y-minutes.html
Text:
IRC log of svg-a11y on 2015-05-08
Timestamps are in UTC.
13:05:46 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #svg-a11y
13:05:46 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/05/08-svg-a11y-irc
13:05:48 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs member
13:05:50 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be WAI_PF
13:05:50 [Zakim]
I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the
next hour, trackbot
13:05:51 [richardschwerdtfeger]
chair: Rich
13:05:51 [trackbot]
Meeting: Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference
13:05:51 [trackbot]
Date: 08 May 2015
13:05:56 [richardschwerdtfeger]
chair: Fred
13:06:09 [richardschwerdtfeger]
meeting: W3C SVG Accessibility Task force
13:06:14 [richardschwerdtfeger]
RRSAgent make log public
13:10:51 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Can you use skype or Google Talk?
13:11:48 [AmeliaBR]
Sure. Anyone else here?
13:13:39 [richardschwerdtfeger]
scribe: Rich
13:14:19 [AmeliaBR]
zakim, mute me
13:14:19 [Zakim]
sorry, AmeliaBR, I don't know what conference this is
13:14:47 [AmeliaBR]
zakim, this is 2742
13:14:47 [Zakim]
ok, AmeliaBR; that matches WAI_SVGTF()9:00AM
13:14:50 [AmeliaBR]
zakim, mute me
13:14:50 [Zakim]
sorry, AmeliaBR, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
13:14:57 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Doug: I will set up WebEx for next week.
13:15:29 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Topic: How we expect markup to work
13:15:57 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Topic: Title, desc, aria-labelledby, aria-label
13:16:10 [richardschwerdtfeger]
q+
13:16:44 [AmeliaBR]
Scribenick: AmeliaBR
13:17:33 [AmeliaBR]
Rich: I would prefer that we recommend authors use <decs>, not
aria-describedby, unless the text is visible on screen.
13:18:15 [AmeliaBR]
...that is partly due to backwards compatibility, but also because
(in SVG 2) the elements have language options
13:19:04 [AmeliaBR]
... I'm not sure if that is possible with visible text.
13:19:35 [AmeliaBR]
Doug: You can, but it is a different mechanism using <switch> and
another attribute
13:19:36 [AmeliaBR]
(the attribute is systemLanguage, which can be used to switch visible
text elements)
13:19:43 [AmeliaBR]
Fred: Do people actually use that?
13:20:00 [AmeliaBR]
Doug: Yes, it works in most browsers.
13:20:24 [AmeliaBR]
zakim, unmute me
13:20:24 [Zakim]
sorry, AmeliaBR, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
13:20:44 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Scribenick: Rich
13:21:13 [AmeliaBR]
zakim, who is on the phone?
13:21:13 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Fred_Esch, Rich_Schwerdtfeger,
Doug_Schepers, ??P24
13:21:22 [AmeliaBR]
zakim, ??P24 is me
13:21:22 [Zakim]
+AmeliaBR; got it
13:21:41 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Fred: If you are not referencing visible text then you use title?
13:22:09 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Fred: Desc is for longer descriptive text and title is short
13:22:27 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Fred: Use aria-labelledby for text visible on the screen
13:22:38 [shepazu_]
Zakim, mute AmeliaBR
13:22:38 [Zakim]
AmeliaBR should now be muted
13:22:44 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Rich: Title should render a tooltip
13:22:54 [Zakim]
-AmeliaBR
13:23:32 [Zakim]
+??P24
13:23:41 [AmeliaBR]
zakim, ??P24 is me
13:23:43 [Zakim]
+AmeliaBR; got it
13:23:45 [AmeliaBR]
zakim, mute me
13:23:45 [Zakim]
AmeliaBR should now be muted
13:24:54 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Fred: titles should be used to provide labels and tooltip
functionality
13:25:22 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Rich: aria-label should be used for short name that does not provide
a tooltip
13:26:16 [AmeliaBR]
q+
13:26:55 [AmeliaBR]
zakim, ack me
13:26:55 [Zakim]
unmuting AmeliaBR
13:26:56 [Zakim]
I see richardschwerdtfeger on the speaker queue
13:27:19 [chaals1]
[I'm in a noisy place and cannot dial… My original request was in
relation to a single top-level title and desc for the image, or
multilingual versions of that I'd be very unhappy having
aria-labeledBy *instead*]
13:27:26 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Doug: If you have a group with a title, and you have embedded
rectangles with titles and circles, the embedded objects inherit the
title of the parent
13:27:33 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Amelia: Agree
13:28:07 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Amelia: We should require that the user agents make the title
available
13:28:23 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Amelia: for touch screens tooltips are problematic
13:29:35 [chaals1]
[For some users tooltips are problematic. First because they are of
varying legibility, and second because they can interfere with using
an interactive thing]
13:30:32 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Amelia: We should not require tooltips in general. The title
information should be accessible (accessed by the user) and that a
tooltip is an option for doing this but not the only vehicle.
tooltips are problematic for mobile touch devices
13:31:25 [Zakim]
+Jason
13:31:29 [AmeliaBR]
zakim, mute me
13:31:29 [Zakim]
AmeliaBR should now be muted
13:31:39 [fesch]
fe: Is there a rule that tootips inherit from their parent?
13:31:45 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Action: Rich add SVG switch processing in name and description
compuation for language
13:31:45 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-1634 - Add svg switch processing in name and
description compuation for language [on Richard Schwerdtfeger - due
2015-05-15].
13:31:57 [fesch]
ds: yes, in SVG tiny, but not sure about 1.1
13:32:06 [fesch]
Fe: Do we want that to happen?
13:32:09 [shepazu_]
[we should make sure that SVG2 is explicit in making sure that child
elements inherit the title from the parent, if they don't have their
own
13:32:10 [fesch]
ds:yes
13:32:20 [fesch]
q?
13:32:28 [richardschwerdtfeger]
ack
13:32:32 [richardschwerdtfeger]
ack rich
13:32:41 [AmeliaBR]
Example of titles on groups versus shapes:
http://fiddle.jshell.net/bppz34od/
13:33:04 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Action: Rich make sure that name computation include inheriting title
from parents
13:33:04 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-1635 - Make sure that name computation include
inheriting title from parents [on Richard Schwerdtfeger - due
2015-05-15].
13:33:39 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Fred: Authoring: should use desc over aria-describedby for
non-visible descriptions
13:34:09 [AmeliaBR]
q+
13:34:30 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Doug: I can’t see why would use aria-label vs. aria-labelledy
13:34:45 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Doug: labelledby is visible to all suers
13:34:54 [richardschwerdtfeger]
s/suers/users/
13:34:56 [AmeliaBR]
zakim, ack me
13:34:56 [Zakim]
unmuting AmeliaBR
13:34:57 [Zakim]
I see no one on the speaker queue
13:35:53 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Amelia: There is an example of using aria-label for visible shape
drawn text in inkScape.
13:36:00 [shepazu_]
q+
13:36:20 [richardschwerdtfeger]
q+
13:36:32 [richardschwerdtfeger]
ack shepazu_
13:36:47 [AmeliaBR]
zakim, mute me
13:36:47 [Zakim]
AmeliaBR should now be muted
13:37:02 [fesch]
amelia can you hear doug?
13:37:14 [AmeliaBR]
No, I can't hear anything.
13:37:30 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Doug: I have a couple problems with that idea (inkScape example)
13:37:30 [fesch]
try to follow along on irc///
13:37:37 [Zakim]
-AmeliaBR
13:37:56 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Doug: if it is just for AT then it should be the title
13:37:58 [Zakim]
+??P24
13:38:08 [AmeliaBR]
zakim, ??P24 is me
13:38:08 [Zakim]
+AmeliaBR; got it
13:38:31 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Doug: if it is just for AT then they should use title
13:38:40 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Amelia: But you will get a tooltip
13:38:48 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Doug: I hear what you are saying
13:38:58 [AmeliaBR]
zakim, mute me
13:38:58 [Zakim]
AmeliaBR should now be muted
13:39:17 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Doug: the real problem is I don’t think this a solution for anybody
13:39:49 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Doug: I made a proposal in the past that we make some sort of
attribute that if you have some text that if you have some text that
is represented by shapes, this could be an attribute or an element
13:40:29 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Doug: so if I had the word groovy I could use this element … this
would be the alternative version of that text
13:40:46 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Doug: If you select all the content in SVG you will get the title
13:41:12 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Doug: we should not expect non-accessibility behavior for aria stuff
13:41:18 [AmeliaBR]
q+
13:41:21 [fesch]
q+
13:41:29 [fesch]
ack rich
13:41:59 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Rich: <path … role=“text” aria-label=“groovy”>
13:42:38 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Rich: during selection, in this case you could pull the aria-label
13:43:00 [fesch]
q?
13:43:52 [AmeliaBR]
zakim, ack me
13:43:52 [Zakim]
unmuting AmeliaBR
13:43:53 [Zakim]
I see fesch on the speaker queue
13:43:56 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Rich: aria-label is global
13:44:20 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Amelia: I am not sure where you got the idea that selection and copy
copies the title. I have not seen that
13:44:48 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Amelia: we should encourage authors to use the elements over the
attributes
13:45:09 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Amelia: I would never recommend that peope use textpath…
13:45:17 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Rich: I lost half of what you said
13:45:30 [richardschwerdtfeger]
s/textpath/textopath/
13:45:46 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Amelia: We should recommend that people use that more
13:46:18 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Doug: we should not push for the accessibility only strategy
13:46:29 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Doug: this is for general usability for SVG
13:47:03 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Amelia: … selectable and searchable text. It should not get in the
way of the underlying graphical text
13:48:12 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Amelia: should we then consider another option for the semantics
within the language for describing this sort of thing
13:49:18 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Fred: When I saw the text path stuff in SVG, the don’t make the whole
word. It is everything goes.
13:49:22 [fesch]
ack me
13:51:54 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Rich: I think the use of shapes to draw text is vislible to everyone.
so stating that it text and being able to access it is an assistive
technology issue
13:52:14 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Doug: We need something that says that this path represents the
letter
13:52:22 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Doug: “T”
13:52:50 [AmeliaBR]
(quite frankly, this is what I *expected* the <altGlyph> element to
do when I was first learning SVG)
13:53:13 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Doug: This way this could be used in a text access computation
13:53:36 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Doug: you get the ability to have this selected
13:53:42 [richardschwerdtfeger]
q+
13:54:20 [fesch]
q?
13:54:27 [fesch]
ack rich
13:54:43 [AmeliaBR]
s/... selectable/The only more universally accessible solution is to
layer almost-transparent real text over top of the text as path; this
requires a lot of extra work, but it creates selectable/
13:54:48 [AmeliaBR]
zakim, mute me
13:54:48 [Zakim]
AmeliaBR should now be muted
13:55:22 [fesch]
rs: can do this now, role=text
13:59:12 [richardschwerdtfeger]
doug: they don’t want ARIA to define behavior. That should be up to
the aria host language.
13:59:34 [richardschwerdtfeger]
doug: we don’t like shoulds. We don’t like optional behaviors
14:00:03 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Action: Bring up to the SVG working group the use of role=
14:00:03 [trackbot]
Error finding 'Bring'. You can review and register nicknames at <
https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/users>.
14:01:33 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Rich: go to SVG working group to discuss using role=“text” to be used
in selection and copying
14:02:16 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Doug: I can’t think of an example where browsers change their
behavior based on ARIA
14:02:17 [fesch]
q?
14:02:18 [richardschwerdtfeger]
q?
14:02:34 [AmeliaBR]
+1 to fighting against the "ARIA doesn't change behavior" assumption.
I'd love it if SVG could just adopt a rule that if role="button",
respond to keyboard events like a button would.
14:02:49 [Zakim]
-AmeliaBR
14:03:03 [richardschwerdtfeger]
jason: I don’t want ARIA changing behavior
14:03:33 [richardschwerdtfeger]
jason: it is better to have a native host language element that does
this.
14:05:17 [richardschwerdtfeger]
jason: If you had title and there were a mechanism to suppress the
tooltip behavior that would be good.
14:05:28 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Rich: that would be good.
14:06:24 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Doug: I think we will receive resistance in using ARIA for this
14:07:03 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Rich: I think it is silly but we should bring it to the working group
14:07:55 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Jason: We do need the text in an element to declare language.
14:08:00 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Fred: we did talk about that earlier
14:09:01 [fesch]
rs: Kevin Russel (google) stated he wanted more aria semantics for
the purposes of webapps
14:09:19 [fesch]
s/Russel/Russell/
14:09:46 [richardschwerdtfeger]
s/Kevin/Alex/
14:10:07 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Doug: Alex wants to define the web in terms of primitives
14:10:18 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Doug: I can see why he wants to use ARIA for that
14:10:27 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Doug: We can try it
14:11:31 [Zakim]
-Rich_Schwerdtfeger
14:11:34 [Zakim]
-Doug_Schepers
14:11:37 [richardschwerdtfeger]
zakim, bye
14:11:37 [Zakim]
leaving. As of this point the attendees were Fred_Esch,
Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Doug_Schepers, AmeliaBR, Jason
14:11:37 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #svg-a11y
14:11:46 [richardschwerdtfeger]
RRSAgent, make minutes
14:11:46 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate
http://www.w3.org/2015/05/08-svg-a11y-minutes.html
richardschwerdtfeger
15:02:45 [richardschwerdtfeger]
richardschwerdtfeger has joined #svg-a11y
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richardschwerdtfeger has joined #svg-a11y
Rich Schwerdtfeger
Received on Thursday, 14 May 2015 15:45:51 UTC