Minutes: June 12, 2015 SVG Accessibility Task force Meeting


Minutes: June 12, 2015 SVG Accessibility Task Force Meeting

http://www.w3.org/2015/06/12-svg-a11y-minutes.html


IRC log of svg-a11y on 2015-06-12


Timestamps are in UTC.


12:56:14 [RRSAgent]
      RRSAgent has joined #svg-a11y
12:56:14 [RRSAgent]
      logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/06/12-svg-a11y-irc

12:56:16 [trackbot]
      RRSAgent, make logs public
12:56:16 [Zakim]
      Zakim has joined #svg-a11y
12:56:18 [trackbot]
      Zakim, this will be WAI_PF
12:56:18 [Zakim]
      I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the
      next hour, trackbot
12:56:19 [trackbot]
      Meeting: Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference
12:56:19 [trackbot]
      Date: 12 June 2015
12:56:22 [richardschwerdtfeger]
      chair: Rich
12:57:20 [LJWatson]
      LJWatson has joined #svg-a11y
12:57:27 [richardschwerdtfeger]
      chair: Fred
12:57:41 [richardschwerdtfeger]
      RRSAgen, make log public
12:57:47 [richardschwerdtfeger]
      RRSAgent, make log public
12:58:44 [richardschwerdtfeger]
      meeting: SVG Accessibility Task Force
12:59:24 [cpandhi]
      cpandhi has joined #svg-a11y
13:02:12 [fesch]
      fesch has joined #svg-a11y
13:02:50 [LJWatson]
      rrsagent, set logs world-visible
13:03:03 [LJWatson]
      meeting: SVG A11y TF
13:03:17 [LJWatson]
      Chair: Fred Esch
13:04:05 [LJWatson]
      present+ Fred Esch
13:04:21 [richardschwerdtfeger]
      present+ Rich
13:04:32 [LJWatson]
      present+ Doug Schepers
13:04:39 [LJWatson]
      present+ LJWatson
13:04:45 [LJWatson]
      scribenick: LJWatson
13:04:58 [LJWatson]
      TOPIC: The <use> element
13:05:15 [LJWatson]
      RS: When you take <use> you can take a section of the DOM.
13:05:44 [LJWatson]
      ... Under the covers the shadow DOM needs to be mapped to the
      accessibility tree.
13:06:21 [LJWatson]
      ... Chrome is the only browser to implement tabindex support so far.
13:06:28 [AmeliaBR]
      AmeliaBR has joined #svg-a11y
13:07:08 [LJWatson]
      DS: In Describlr the navigation tree had to be created manually.
13:07:19 [LJWatson]
      ... This is about focus though, not <use>.
13:07:31 [LJWatson]
      RS: No, it's bigger - you need to make sure things are exposed to the
      acc tree.
13:08:08 [LJWatson]
      DS: I disagree. We discussed this at length last week. The <use>
      element isn't intended to be used for complex constructs - only
      single things.
13:08:14 [LJWatson]
      RS: But you can can't you?
13:08:22 [LJWatson]
      DS: It's unclear in the current spec.
13:08:29 [LJWatson]
      rrsagent, make minutes
13:08:29 [RRSAgent]
      I have made the request to generate
      http://www.w3.org/2015/06/12-svg-a11y-minutes.html LJWatson
13:09:01 [LJWatson]
      DS: If there are two elements in an icon, and mousing over each
      caused something different to happen... different behaviour on each.
13:09:16 [LJWatson]
      ... If I put them in a group and re-used that, the behaviour would
      not persist.
13:09:55 [LJWatson]
      ... I don't believe the shadow DOM is exposed in this way, and I
      don't think it should be.
13:10:01 [LJWatson]
      RS: Do we say that anywhere in the guidance?
13:10:09 [LJWatson]
      DS: I don't know that we say it anywhere.
13:10:33 [LJWatson]
      ABR: There are discrepancies between the spec and implementations,
      and between implementations.
13:10:41 [LJWatson]
      present+ Amelia BR
13:10:48 [LJWatson]
      rrsagent, make minutes
13:10:48 [RRSAgent]
      I have made the request to generate
      http://www.w3.org/2015/06/12-svg-a11y-minutes.html LJWatson
13:12:42 [LJWatson]
      ... If you click on a complex icon you can figure out which thing was
      clicked on, but only the composite thing can react.
13:13:28 [LJWatson]
      RS: If a person interacts with an SVG drawing and is given some
      functionality, and someone who is impaired does not get the same
      functionality, that's a failure.
13:14:06 [LJWatson]
      ABR: SVG should adopt Web Components, but Web Components are not
      <use> elements.
13:14:36 [LJWatson]
      ... You use a template, but there is encapsulation. Each web
      component has its own DOM that can react differently from any other
      instance.
13:14:56 [LJWatson]
      RS: Amelia can you take an action to look at the SVG spec to get this
      cleaned up?
13:15:31 [LJWatson]
      ACTION: Amelia to look at SVG spec for references to <use> element,
      to make sure there is no confusion about
      implementation/accessibility.
13:15:31 [trackbot]
      Error finding 'Amelia'. You can review and register nicknames at <
      https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/users>.
13:16:22 [LJWatson]
      RS: Can something copied with <use> be interacted with?
13:16:48 [LJWatson]
      DS: If I copied a button, it would be interactive in the sense it
      could be clicked on to be activated, but I could assign different
      behaviour to the cloned button.
13:16:54 [LJWatson]
      rrsagent, make minutes
13:16:54 [RRSAgent]
      I have made the request to generate
      http://www.w3.org/2015/06/12-svg-a11y-minutes.html LJWatson
13:17:17 [LJWatson]
      RS: I believe it's treated as a group by default.
13:17:52 [LJWatson]
      AVR: New roles like icon and/or symbol will have fallback roles.
13:18:33 [LJWatson]
      ABR: Looks like the spec has been cleaned up.
13:18:46 [LJWatson]
      DS: Has it been cleaned up, or just it just say "this thing is
      opaque".
13:18:57 [LJWatson]
      ... Agree that <use> isn't consistently implemented.
13:19:10 [LJWatson]
      ABR: We need to follow up with the main WG.
13:21:06 [LJWatson]
      rrsagent, make minutes
13:21:06 [RRSAgent]
      I have made the request to generate
      http://www.w3.org/2015/06/12-svg-a11y-minutes.html LJWatson
13:21:22 [richardschwerdtfeger]
      scribenick: Rich
13:21:38 [shepazu]
      (Created ACTION-3812 - Look at svg spec for references to <use>
      element, to make sure there is no confusion about
      implementation/accessibility. [on Amelia Bellamy-Royds - due
      2015-06-19].)
13:21:44 [richardschwerdtfeger]
      Action: Rich make img the default role for <use>
13:21:44 [trackbot]
      Created ACTION-1649 - Make img the default role for <use> [on Richard
      Schwerdtfeger - due 2015-06-19].
13:22:19 [richardschwerdtfeger]
      Topic: Role Taxonomy
13:22:48 [richardschwerdtfeger]
      Fred: When we left 2 weeks ago we had talked about icon and we were
      starting to talk about whether we would want symbol also
13:23:39 [richardschwerdtfeger]
      Amelia: I had initially proposed one role that would encompass a
      complex graphic that represents a simple concept in many cases.
13:24:10 [richardschwerdtfeger]
      Amelia: We discussed whether it made sense to use the same
      terminology to define symbols on a graphic vs. a chart.
13:24:50 [richardschwerdtfeger]
      Amelia: Even if common languages has different names for these, I
      think it is unnecessary to have 2 roles as we have to add terminology
      to define which context the role is valid in.
13:25:00 [richardschwerdtfeger]
      Amelia: The context should determine the context
13:25:18 [shepazu]
      q+
13:26:02 [richardschwerdtfeger]
      Fred: I like the term symbol as it is used in the graphics domains
      all the time. When ever you google things you can google electical
      symbols vs. electrical icons
13:26:34 [richardschwerdtfeger]
      Fred: I definitely think there is value in telling ATs that there is
      value in telling the AT that these are symbols
13:27:08 [richardschwerdtfeger]
      Lioni: I see value in having both symbols and icons. There is quite a
      different to the 2 things in my mind
13:27:29 [richardschwerdtfeger]
      Fred: If you are trying to teach kids what the nomenclature is they
      can’t be referring to them as icons
13:27:51 [richardschwerdtfeger]
      Jason: There is interest in the role description property
13:27:57 [richardschwerdtfeger]
      q+
13:28:13 [richardschwerdtfeger]
      Jason: I think it is an important issue
13:28:34 [richardschwerdtfeger]
      Jason: This is a larger ARIA issue
13:28:38 [fesch]
      ack shepazu
13:28:39 [richardschwerdtfeger]
      ack shepazu
13:29:06 [LJWatson]
      q+
13:29:16 [richardschwerdtfeger]
      Doug: we can differentiate between Symbol and icon. Are we saying
      that a user agent or an AT uses the same word that we use for the
      role in order to impart the meaning to the user?
13:29:30 [richardschwerdtfeger]
      Doug: Finish is not the same as finnish
13:29:54 [richardschwerdtfeger]
      Doug: at some point I agree there is a distinction on what stands as
      a symbol vs. a functional thing
13:30:07 [richardschwerdtfeger]
      Doug: I don’t know that we should keep dwelling on this
13:30:09 [AmeliaBR]
      q+
13:30:16 [fesch]
      ack rich
13:30:27 [richardschwerdtfeger]
      ack richardschwerdtfeger
13:30:55 [fesch]
      q ?
13:30:56 [richardschwerdtfeger]
      Jason: there are important issues about using the ARIA role name
13:31:06 [fesch]
      q+
13:31:16 [richardschwerdtfeger]
      Jason: what we should distinguish here is that the different types
      can be treated differently.
13:32:17 [fesch]
      ack LJ
13:32:35 [richardschwerdtfeger]
      Lioni: To the best of my knowledge screen readers will take guidance
      from the role attribute
13:32:58 [richardschwerdtfeger]
      Lioni: We need to make sure we correctly define what the thing is
13:33:14 [richardschwerdtfeger]
      Doug: I agree but the name that we choose for the role may not be
      what the AT uses
13:33:29 [richardschwerdtfeger]
      Doug: I can see where Apple says we have a better name for our users
13:33:35 [LJWatson]
      ack me
13:33:54 [richardschwerdtfeger]
      Fred: Shere this is a domain for dpub or epub we can choose the name
      in the context of the name
13:34:11 [richardschwerdtfeger]
      Lioni: you tend to describe something by its role
13:34:13 [fesch]
      ack ame
13:34:33 [richardschwerdtfeger]
      Amelia: sounds reasonable. There are cases where people are already
      mapping to roles that are not in ARIA
13:34:41 [richardschwerdtfeger]
      Amelia: it is not guaranteed.
13:35:03 [richardschwerdtfeger]
      Amelia: my main concern is the distinction between symbol or icon
13:35:17 [richardschwerdtfeger]
      Amelia: if it is interactive it should have a widget role
13:35:31 [shepazu]
      q+
13:35:34 [richardschwerdtfeger]
      Amelia: so, we should avoid the word icon and just use Symbol
13:35:44 [richardschwerdtfeger]
      ack fesch
13:35:52 [richardschwerdtfeger]
      Fred: a symbol you can put an action on
13:36:04 [richardschwerdtfeger]
      Fred: I would not prohibit doing an action on a symbole
13:36:06 [fesch]
      ack shep
13:36:59 [richardschwerdtfeger]
      Rich: only one role is mapped at a time
13:37:16 [richardschwerdtfeger]
      Rich: there is an aria-interactive role defined in ARIA 1.1
13:37:40 [richardschwerdtfeger]
      Doug: icon does not say what it is doing
13:38:04 [richardschwerdtfeger]
      Rich: we could subclass icon if we wanted to.
13:38:17 [richardschwerdtfeger]
      Lioni: Icon is a thing in digital interfaces
13:38:56 [richardschwerdtfeger]
      Amelia: perhaps having an icon button being a subclass of button as
      represented as a graphical display. I think this is worth having a
      role for
13:39:20 [richardschwerdtfeger]
      Doug: Right. But then we could have a symbol for a non-interactive
      graphic wether it is in a map or a chart
13:39:46 [richardschwerdtfeger]
      Doug: You could always use a different aria role for things
13:40:11 [richardschwerdtfeger]
      Jason: you could also use an aria role description for a button to
      say that it is an icon
13:40:27 [richardschwerdtfeger]
      Doug: can I try to persuade you for a moment?
13:40:30 [LJWatson]
      q+
13:40:44 [richardschwerdtfeger]
      Doug: when I say click on the trash icon do you look for the trash
      button?
13:40:47 [richardschwerdtfeger]
      Jason: yes
13:41:07 [richardschwerdtfeger]
      Doug: perhaps for the average user there is more clarity by calling
      it an icon
13:41:19 [LJWatson]
      +1 to clarity for users.
13:41:22 [richardschwerdtfeger]
      Jason: I think they get most of their information from interacting
      with it
13:41:51 [richardschwerdtfeger]
      Doug: May I suggest a path forward but we put an icon role out there
      asking for feedback
13:41:54 [richardschwerdtfeger]
      Fred: I agree
13:42:23 [richardschwerdtfeger]
      Leoni: adding a role for icon is always going to be the path of least
      resistance.
13:42:30 [AmeliaBR]
      q+ to talk about symbol & role-description for shapes
13:42:46 [richardschwerdtfeger]
      Leoni: making them do a role of “buttion” with a role description of
      “icon” will not make them happy
13:42:54 [richardschwerdtfeger]
      ack LJWatson
13:43:12 [richardschwerdtfeger]
      Ameila: Is there anything else on that topic?
13:44:00 [richardschwerdtfeger]
      RESOLUTION: Use Icon as an Icon button Role which would be a subclass
      of the button role.
13:45:46 [richardschwerdtfeger]
      RESOLUTION: Amelia,Fred, will be initial editors of the document and
      we will add as we gain contributors
13:47:42 [richardschwerdtfeger]
      Action: Lioni set up github folder structure uner ARIA for the
      Graphics module
13:47:42 [trackbot]
      Error finding 'Lioni'. You can review and register nicknames at <
      https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/users>.
13:48:07 [AmeliaBR]
      s/making them do/making authors have to include/
13:48:09 [richardschwerdtfeger]
      Action: LJWatson set up github folder structure uner ARIA for the
      Graphics module
13:48:09 [trackbot]
      Error finding 'LJWatson'. You can review and register nicknames at <
      https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/users>.
13:48:30 [richardschwerdtfeger]
      Action: Leeonie set up github folder structure uner ARIA for the
      Graphics module
13:48:30 [trackbot]
      Error finding 'Leeonie'. You can review and register nicknames at <
      https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/users>.
13:48:47 [shepazu]
      Action: Leonie set up github folder structure uner ARIA for the
      Graphics module
13:48:48 [trackbot]
      Created ACTION-1650 - set up github folder structure uner aria for
      the graphics module [on Léonie Watson - due 2015-06-19].
13:48:50 [richardschwerdtfeger]
      Action: Leonie set up github folder structure uner ARIA for the
      Graphics module
13:48:50 [trackbot]
      Created ACTION-1651 - set up github folder structure uner aria for
      the graphics module [on Léonie Watson - due 2015-06-19].
13:49:27 [fesch]
      q?
13:49:31 [AmeliaBR]
      ack me
13:49:31 [Zakim]
      AmeliaBR, you wanted to talk about symbol & role-description for
      shapes
13:49:48 [richardschwerdtfeger]
      Topic: Symbol
13:50:03 [richardschwerdtfeger]
      Amelia: Symbol is an atomic non-interactive graphic
13:50:22 [richardschwerdtfeger]
      Amelia: So a symbole will probably be the logical basic role for
      basic shapes
13:50:43 [richardschwerdtfeger]
      Amelia: this is a diamond, this is a heart
13:50:52 [fesch]
      q?
13:51:12 [richardschwerdtfeger]
      Amelia: The symbol should not be for any large graphic but that would
      include basic shapes
13:51:30 [richardschwerdtfeger]
      Amelia: It would follow the existing pattern
13:51:49 [richardschwerdtfeger]
      Amelia: it does not have a label on it you would not mention it at
      all
13:52:01 [richardschwerdtfeger]
      Amelia: if you have a label on that shape you would call it a symbol
13:52:07 [fesch]
      q?
13:52:37 [richardschwerdtfeger]
      Rich: so if you just have a circle with a label do you really want
      this to be a symbol?
13:53:15 [richardschwerdtfeger]
      Amelia: shape, ellipse, and path are details of the implementation
13:54:20 [richardschwerdtfeger]
      Amelia: a symbol can never have a child
13:54:33 [richardschwerdtfeger]
      Amelia: right now all these shapes will map to group
13:55:12 [richardschwerdtfeger]
      Amelia: the only things it can have in the tree are animate, ...
13:55:19 [richardschwerdtfeger]
      Amelia: there is no child text
13:55:45 [richardschwerdtfeger]
      Amelia: they can have implicit roles of role description circle
13:56:34 [fesch]
      q?
13:56:42 [richardschwerdtfeger]
      Rich: James Craig at Apple had wanted circle, ellipse, etc.
13:56:48 [shepazu]
      q+
13:56:59 [richardschwerdtfeger]
      Jason: it seems reasonable to define roles for the pre-defined shapes
13:57:12 [richardschwerdtfeger]
      Jason: I would not be a proposed to a shape role either
13:57:24 [fesch]
      q+
13:57:34 [richardschwerdtfeger]
      Jason: I think we have several different options for treating the
      issues
13:57:35 [fesch]
      ack shep
13:57:53 [richardschwerdtfeger]
      Doug: So, Jason If you heard that something had the role of path what
      would you think?
13:58:38 [richardschwerdtfeger]
      Doug: 90% of all elements used in SVG are all paths
13:59:08 [richardschwerdtfeger]
      Doug: rectangles, circles, and ellipses are typically either a path
      or a polygon
13:59:22 [richardschwerdtfeger]
      Doug: if it has curves it is probably a path
13:59:55 [richardschwerdtfeger]
      Doug: most authoring tools use paths vs circle, etc.
14:00:17 [richardschwerdtfeger]
      Doug: Yoking it to the thing that it is a not very valuable
14:00:32 [fesch]
      ack me
14:01:47 [richardschwerdtfeger]
      Doug: If we want people to know there is a circle on the screen it
      should probably be in shape or path with a roledescription that was
      circle
14:02:09 [richardschwerdtfeger]
      Fred: you could actually draw the entire symbol with a path and
      visually look the same.
14:02:36 [richardschwerdtfeger]
      Fred: when you are losing about basic shapes, … I don’t hear shapes
      used very often
14:03:12 [richardschwerdtfeger]
      Doug: other than when you are talking about a shape as a shape you
      need to be more explicit
14:04:19 [richardschwerdtfeger]
      Rich: Lets put symbol in the spec. and get feedback. Also state that
      we considered shape
14:04:52 [richardschwerdtfeger]
      RESOLUTION: We will have a symbol role that includes atomic
      non-interactive content that also encompasses the basic shapes
14:05:05 [richardschwerdtfeger]
      RRSAgent, make log public
14:05:18 [richardschwerdtfeger]
      RRSAgent, draft minutes
14:05:18 [RRSAgent]
      I have made the request to generate
      http://www.w3.org/2015/06/12-svg-a11y-minutes.html

      richardschwerdtfeger
14:05:58 [richardschwerdtfeger]
      RRSAgent, make minutes
14:05:58 [RRSAgent]
      I have made the request to generate
      http://www.w3.org/2015/06/12-svg-a11y-minutes.html

      richardschwerdtfeger


Rich Schwerdtfeger

Received on Friday, 12 June 2015 14:10:16 UTC