- From: Richard Schwerdtfeger <schwer@us.ibm.com>
- Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2015 09:09:31 -0500
- To: public-svg-a11y@w3.org
- Message-ID: <OF39018758.AD42D303-ON86257E62.004D8E90-86257E62.004DC691@us.ibm.com>
Minutes: June 12, 2015 SVG Accessibility Task Force Meeting
http://www.w3.org/2015/06/12-svg-a11y-minutes.html
IRC log of svg-a11y on 2015-06-12
Timestamps are in UTC.
12:56:14 [RRSAgent]
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logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/06/12-svg-a11y-irc
12:56:16 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
12:56:16 [Zakim]
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12:56:18 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be WAI_PF
12:56:18 [Zakim]
I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the
next hour, trackbot
12:56:19 [trackbot]
Meeting: Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference
12:56:19 [trackbot]
Date: 12 June 2015
12:56:22 [richardschwerdtfeger]
chair: Rich
12:57:20 [LJWatson]
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12:57:27 [richardschwerdtfeger]
chair: Fred
12:57:41 [richardschwerdtfeger]
RRSAgen, make log public
12:57:47 [richardschwerdtfeger]
RRSAgent, make log public
12:58:44 [richardschwerdtfeger]
meeting: SVG Accessibility Task Force
12:59:24 [cpandhi]
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13:02:12 [fesch]
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13:02:50 [LJWatson]
rrsagent, set logs world-visible
13:03:03 [LJWatson]
meeting: SVG A11y TF
13:03:17 [LJWatson]
Chair: Fred Esch
13:04:05 [LJWatson]
present+ Fred Esch
13:04:21 [richardschwerdtfeger]
present+ Rich
13:04:32 [LJWatson]
present+ Doug Schepers
13:04:39 [LJWatson]
present+ LJWatson
13:04:45 [LJWatson]
scribenick: LJWatson
13:04:58 [LJWatson]
TOPIC: The <use> element
13:05:15 [LJWatson]
RS: When you take <use> you can take a section of the DOM.
13:05:44 [LJWatson]
... Under the covers the shadow DOM needs to be mapped to the
accessibility tree.
13:06:21 [LJWatson]
... Chrome is the only browser to implement tabindex support so far.
13:06:28 [AmeliaBR]
AmeliaBR has joined #svg-a11y
13:07:08 [LJWatson]
DS: In Describlr the navigation tree had to be created manually.
13:07:19 [LJWatson]
... This is about focus though, not <use>.
13:07:31 [LJWatson]
RS: No, it's bigger - you need to make sure things are exposed to the
acc tree.
13:08:08 [LJWatson]
DS: I disagree. We discussed this at length last week. The <use>
element isn't intended to be used for complex constructs - only
single things.
13:08:14 [LJWatson]
RS: But you can can't you?
13:08:22 [LJWatson]
DS: It's unclear in the current spec.
13:08:29 [LJWatson]
rrsagent, make minutes
13:08:29 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate
http://www.w3.org/2015/06/12-svg-a11y-minutes.html LJWatson
13:09:01 [LJWatson]
DS: If there are two elements in an icon, and mousing over each
caused something different to happen... different behaviour on each.
13:09:16 [LJWatson]
... If I put them in a group and re-used that, the behaviour would
not persist.
13:09:55 [LJWatson]
... I don't believe the shadow DOM is exposed in this way, and I
don't think it should be.
13:10:01 [LJWatson]
RS: Do we say that anywhere in the guidance?
13:10:09 [LJWatson]
DS: I don't know that we say it anywhere.
13:10:33 [LJWatson]
ABR: There are discrepancies between the spec and implementations,
and between implementations.
13:10:41 [LJWatson]
present+ Amelia BR
13:10:48 [LJWatson]
rrsagent, make minutes
13:10:48 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate
http://www.w3.org/2015/06/12-svg-a11y-minutes.html LJWatson
13:12:42 [LJWatson]
... If you click on a complex icon you can figure out which thing was
clicked on, but only the composite thing can react.
13:13:28 [LJWatson]
RS: If a person interacts with an SVG drawing and is given some
functionality, and someone who is impaired does not get the same
functionality, that's a failure.
13:14:06 [LJWatson]
ABR: SVG should adopt Web Components, but Web Components are not
<use> elements.
13:14:36 [LJWatson]
... You use a template, but there is encapsulation. Each web
component has its own DOM that can react differently from any other
instance.
13:14:56 [LJWatson]
RS: Amelia can you take an action to look at the SVG spec to get this
cleaned up?
13:15:31 [LJWatson]
ACTION: Amelia to look at SVG spec for references to <use> element,
to make sure there is no confusion about
implementation/accessibility.
13:15:31 [trackbot]
Error finding 'Amelia'. You can review and register nicknames at <
https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/users>.
13:16:22 [LJWatson]
RS: Can something copied with <use> be interacted with?
13:16:48 [LJWatson]
DS: If I copied a button, it would be interactive in the sense it
could be clicked on to be activated, but I could assign different
behaviour to the cloned button.
13:16:54 [LJWatson]
rrsagent, make minutes
13:16:54 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate
http://www.w3.org/2015/06/12-svg-a11y-minutes.html LJWatson
13:17:17 [LJWatson]
RS: I believe it's treated as a group by default.
13:17:52 [LJWatson]
AVR: New roles like icon and/or symbol will have fallback roles.
13:18:33 [LJWatson]
ABR: Looks like the spec has been cleaned up.
13:18:46 [LJWatson]
DS: Has it been cleaned up, or just it just say "this thing is
opaque".
13:18:57 [LJWatson]
... Agree that <use> isn't consistently implemented.
13:19:10 [LJWatson]
ABR: We need to follow up with the main WG.
13:21:06 [LJWatson]
rrsagent, make minutes
13:21:06 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate
http://www.w3.org/2015/06/12-svg-a11y-minutes.html LJWatson
13:21:22 [richardschwerdtfeger]
scribenick: Rich
13:21:38 [shepazu]
(Created ACTION-3812 - Look at svg spec for references to <use>
element, to make sure there is no confusion about
implementation/accessibility. [on Amelia Bellamy-Royds - due
2015-06-19].)
13:21:44 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Action: Rich make img the default role for <use>
13:21:44 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-1649 - Make img the default role for <use> [on Richard
Schwerdtfeger - due 2015-06-19].
13:22:19 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Topic: Role Taxonomy
13:22:48 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Fred: When we left 2 weeks ago we had talked about icon and we were
starting to talk about whether we would want symbol also
13:23:39 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Amelia: I had initially proposed one role that would encompass a
complex graphic that represents a simple concept in many cases.
13:24:10 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Amelia: We discussed whether it made sense to use the same
terminology to define symbols on a graphic vs. a chart.
13:24:50 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Amelia: Even if common languages has different names for these, I
think it is unnecessary to have 2 roles as we have to add terminology
to define which context the role is valid in.
13:25:00 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Amelia: The context should determine the context
13:25:18 [shepazu]
q+
13:26:02 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Fred: I like the term symbol as it is used in the graphics domains
all the time. When ever you google things you can google electical
symbols vs. electrical icons
13:26:34 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Fred: I definitely think there is value in telling ATs that there is
value in telling the AT that these are symbols
13:27:08 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Lioni: I see value in having both symbols and icons. There is quite a
different to the 2 things in my mind
13:27:29 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Fred: If you are trying to teach kids what the nomenclature is they
can’t be referring to them as icons
13:27:51 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Jason: There is interest in the role description property
13:27:57 [richardschwerdtfeger]
q+
13:28:13 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Jason: I think it is an important issue
13:28:34 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Jason: This is a larger ARIA issue
13:28:38 [fesch]
ack shepazu
13:28:39 [richardschwerdtfeger]
ack shepazu
13:29:06 [LJWatson]
q+
13:29:16 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Doug: we can differentiate between Symbol and icon. Are we saying
that a user agent or an AT uses the same word that we use for the
role in order to impart the meaning to the user?
13:29:30 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Doug: Finish is not the same as finnish
13:29:54 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Doug: at some point I agree there is a distinction on what stands as
a symbol vs. a functional thing
13:30:07 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Doug: I don’t know that we should keep dwelling on this
13:30:09 [AmeliaBR]
q+
13:30:16 [fesch]
ack rich
13:30:27 [richardschwerdtfeger]
ack richardschwerdtfeger
13:30:55 [fesch]
q ?
13:30:56 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Jason: there are important issues about using the ARIA role name
13:31:06 [fesch]
q+
13:31:16 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Jason: what we should distinguish here is that the different types
can be treated differently.
13:32:17 [fesch]
ack LJ
13:32:35 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Lioni: To the best of my knowledge screen readers will take guidance
from the role attribute
13:32:58 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Lioni: We need to make sure we correctly define what the thing is
13:33:14 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Doug: I agree but the name that we choose for the role may not be
what the AT uses
13:33:29 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Doug: I can see where Apple says we have a better name for our users
13:33:35 [LJWatson]
ack me
13:33:54 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Fred: Shere this is a domain for dpub or epub we can choose the name
in the context of the name
13:34:11 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Lioni: you tend to describe something by its role
13:34:13 [fesch]
ack ame
13:34:33 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Amelia: sounds reasonable. There are cases where people are already
mapping to roles that are not in ARIA
13:34:41 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Amelia: it is not guaranteed.
13:35:03 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Amelia: my main concern is the distinction between symbol or icon
13:35:17 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Amelia: if it is interactive it should have a widget role
13:35:31 [shepazu]
q+
13:35:34 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Amelia: so, we should avoid the word icon and just use Symbol
13:35:44 [richardschwerdtfeger]
ack fesch
13:35:52 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Fred: a symbol you can put an action on
13:36:04 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Fred: I would not prohibit doing an action on a symbole
13:36:06 [fesch]
ack shep
13:36:59 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Rich: only one role is mapped at a time
13:37:16 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Rich: there is an aria-interactive role defined in ARIA 1.1
13:37:40 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Doug: icon does not say what it is doing
13:38:04 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Rich: we could subclass icon if we wanted to.
13:38:17 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Lioni: Icon is a thing in digital interfaces
13:38:56 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Amelia: perhaps having an icon button being a subclass of button as
represented as a graphical display. I think this is worth having a
role for
13:39:20 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Doug: Right. But then we could have a symbol for a non-interactive
graphic wether it is in a map or a chart
13:39:46 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Doug: You could always use a different aria role for things
13:40:11 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Jason: you could also use an aria role description for a button to
say that it is an icon
13:40:27 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Doug: can I try to persuade you for a moment?
13:40:30 [LJWatson]
q+
13:40:44 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Doug: when I say click on the trash icon do you look for the trash
button?
13:40:47 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Jason: yes
13:41:07 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Doug: perhaps for the average user there is more clarity by calling
it an icon
13:41:19 [LJWatson]
+1 to clarity for users.
13:41:22 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Jason: I think they get most of their information from interacting
with it
13:41:51 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Doug: May I suggest a path forward but we put an icon role out there
asking for feedback
13:41:54 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Fred: I agree
13:42:23 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Leoni: adding a role for icon is always going to be the path of least
resistance.
13:42:30 [AmeliaBR]
q+ to talk about symbol & role-description for shapes
13:42:46 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Leoni: making them do a role of “buttion” with a role description of
“icon” will not make them happy
13:42:54 [richardschwerdtfeger]
ack LJWatson
13:43:12 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Ameila: Is there anything else on that topic?
13:44:00 [richardschwerdtfeger]
RESOLUTION: Use Icon as an Icon button Role which would be a subclass
of the button role.
13:45:46 [richardschwerdtfeger]
RESOLUTION: Amelia,Fred, will be initial editors of the document and
we will add as we gain contributors
13:47:42 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Action: Lioni set up github folder structure uner ARIA for the
Graphics module
13:47:42 [trackbot]
Error finding 'Lioni'. You can review and register nicknames at <
https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/users>.
13:48:07 [AmeliaBR]
s/making them do/making authors have to include/
13:48:09 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Action: LJWatson set up github folder structure uner ARIA for the
Graphics module
13:48:09 [trackbot]
Error finding 'LJWatson'. You can review and register nicknames at <
https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/users>.
13:48:30 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Action: Leeonie set up github folder structure uner ARIA for the
Graphics module
13:48:30 [trackbot]
Error finding 'Leeonie'. You can review and register nicknames at <
https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/users>.
13:48:47 [shepazu]
Action: Leonie set up github folder structure uner ARIA for the
Graphics module
13:48:48 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-1650 - set up github folder structure uner aria for
the graphics module [on Léonie Watson - due 2015-06-19].
13:48:50 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Action: Leonie set up github folder structure uner ARIA for the
Graphics module
13:48:50 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-1651 - set up github folder structure uner aria for
the graphics module [on Léonie Watson - due 2015-06-19].
13:49:27 [fesch]
q?
13:49:31 [AmeliaBR]
ack me
13:49:31 [Zakim]
AmeliaBR, you wanted to talk about symbol & role-description for
shapes
13:49:48 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Topic: Symbol
13:50:03 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Amelia: Symbol is an atomic non-interactive graphic
13:50:22 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Amelia: So a symbole will probably be the logical basic role for
basic shapes
13:50:43 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Amelia: this is a diamond, this is a heart
13:50:52 [fesch]
q?
13:51:12 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Amelia: The symbol should not be for any large graphic but that would
include basic shapes
13:51:30 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Amelia: It would follow the existing pattern
13:51:49 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Amelia: it does not have a label on it you would not mention it at
all
13:52:01 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Amelia: if you have a label on that shape you would call it a symbol
13:52:07 [fesch]
q?
13:52:37 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Rich: so if you just have a circle with a label do you really want
this to be a symbol?
13:53:15 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Amelia: shape, ellipse, and path are details of the implementation
13:54:20 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Amelia: a symbol can never have a child
13:54:33 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Amelia: right now all these shapes will map to group
13:55:12 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Amelia: the only things it can have in the tree are animate, ...
13:55:19 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Amelia: there is no child text
13:55:45 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Amelia: they can have implicit roles of role description circle
13:56:34 [fesch]
q?
13:56:42 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Rich: James Craig at Apple had wanted circle, ellipse, etc.
13:56:48 [shepazu]
q+
13:56:59 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Jason: it seems reasonable to define roles for the pre-defined shapes
13:57:12 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Jason: I would not be a proposed to a shape role either
13:57:24 [fesch]
q+
13:57:34 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Jason: I think we have several different options for treating the
issues
13:57:35 [fesch]
ack shep
13:57:53 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Doug: So, Jason If you heard that something had the role of path what
would you think?
13:58:38 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Doug: 90% of all elements used in SVG are all paths
13:59:08 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Doug: rectangles, circles, and ellipses are typically either a path
or a polygon
13:59:22 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Doug: if it has curves it is probably a path
13:59:55 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Doug: most authoring tools use paths vs circle, etc.
14:00:17 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Doug: Yoking it to the thing that it is a not very valuable
14:00:32 [fesch]
ack me
14:01:47 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Doug: If we want people to know there is a circle on the screen it
should probably be in shape or path with a roledescription that was
circle
14:02:09 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Fred: you could actually draw the entire symbol with a path and
visually look the same.
14:02:36 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Fred: when you are losing about basic shapes, … I don’t hear shapes
used very often
14:03:12 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Doug: other than when you are talking about a shape as a shape you
need to be more explicit
14:04:19 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Rich: Lets put symbol in the spec. and get feedback. Also state that
we considered shape
14:04:52 [richardschwerdtfeger]
RESOLUTION: We will have a symbol role that includes atomic
non-interactive content that also encompasses the basic shapes
14:05:05 [richardschwerdtfeger]
RRSAgent, make log public
14:05:18 [richardschwerdtfeger]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
14:05:18 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate
http://www.w3.org/2015/06/12-svg-a11y-minutes.html
richardschwerdtfeger
14:05:58 [richardschwerdtfeger]
RRSAgent, make minutes
14:05:58 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate
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richardschwerdtfeger
Rich Schwerdtfeger
Received on Friday, 12 June 2015 14:10:16 UTC