Chaals and Jason, We didn't complete the discussion on symbol and icon during the call and will pick up the discussion on symbol on Friday. Doug brought the difference between icon and symbol by referring to this page http://www.differencebetween.com/difference-between-icon-and-vs-symbol/. Since we are looking at the graphics domain, if we want to "split hairs" as long as we think they are meaningful we should. I would like to see a symbol role be the default role for the symbol element. According to Rich's mapping doc, symbol either does not get mapped at all or maps to group. Symbol is a standard term in many fields that can have things rendered in SVG. Math, physical sciences (chemistry, physics), cartography (map making), statistical charts/infograhics, blue prints/technical drawings all use the term symbol as part of their lexicon (and I don't believe they use the term icon). Unicode has symbols but not icons. Since our goal it to be friendly to users, especially professionals and students - calling a symbol an icon would be a disservice and disadvantage to AT users. As Doug mentioned on Friday, icon is widely used in web development for graphics associated with buttons, menu items and toolbars. And I think that is a valid role. Regards, Fred Fred Esch Accessibility, Watson Innovations AARB Complex Visualization Working Group Chair W3C SVG Accessibility Task Force IBM Watson From: "White, Jason J" <jjwhite@ets.org> To: "chaals@yandex-team.ru" <chaals@yandex-team.ru> Cc: "lwatson@paciellogroup.com" <lwatson@paciellogroup.com>, "public-svg-a11y@w3.org" <public-svg-a11y@w3.org> Date: 05/30/2015 01:55 PM Subject: Re: Minutes: SVG A11y TF telecon, 29th May 2015 > On May 30, 2015, at 04:20, chaals@yandex-team.ru wrote: > > > A couple of comments on the proposed roles: > > 1. Can we just redefine "image”? From the ARIA 1.1 draft: ---- A container for a collection of elements that form an image. An img can contain captions and descriptive text, as well as multiple image files that when viewed together give the impression of a single image. An img represents a single graphic within a document, whether or not it is formed by a collection of drawing objects. In order for elements with a role of img be perceivable, authors must provide alternative text or a label determined by the accessible name calculation. —— Thus, it is already a compound object, though the above description isn’t exactly what we have in mind for it. > > What breaks if we redefine the image role so that it may have explorable children? Possibly nothing. A definite answer to that question would be helpful here. > > 2. What is the difference between icon and symbol? > > If the only difference is that one might be a button, and the other not, then I think we're splitting hairs and should just have one of them. Unfortunately I had to leave the call just as this part of the conversation was starting. Based on the mailing list discussion, though, my understanding is that “symbol” is meant to represent the same kind of object as “icon”, but the former is a component of an SVG document whereas the latter is the entire image that comprises the SVG document. I don’t think the ARIA semantics should depend on whether or not an entity can occur as a component of a larger graphic, however. There may be other distinctions between the two that I’m not appreciating, though. ________________________________ This e-mail and any files transmitted with it may contain privileged or confidential information. It is solely for use by the individual for whom it is intended, even if addressed incorrectly. If you received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender; do not disclose, copy, distribute, or take any action in reliance on the contents of this information; and delete it from your system. Any other use of this e-mail is prohibited. Thank you for your compliance. ________________________________ z{S}ĝ xjǺ z{mʗ{٥r z{Ch+bx)<html><body><p>Chaals and Jason,<br><br>We didn't complete the discussion on symbol and icon during the call and will pick up the discussion on symbol on Friday. Doug brought the difference between icon and symbol by referring to this page <a href="http://www.differencebetween.com/difference-between-icon-and-vs-symbol/">http://www.differencebetween.com/difference-between-icon-and-vs-symbol/</a>. Since we are looking at the graphics domain, if we want to "split hairs" as long as we think they are meaningful we should. <br><br> I would like to see a symbol role be the default role for the symbol element. According to Rich's mapping doc, symbol either does not get mapped at all or maps to group. Symbol is a standard term in many fields that can have things rendered in SVG. Math, physical sciences (chemistry, physics), cartography (map making), statistical charts/infograhics, blue prints/technical drawings all use the term symbol as part of their lexicon (and I don't believe they use the term icon). Unicode has symbols but not icons. Since our goal it to be friendly to users, especially professionals and students - calling a symbol an icon would be a disservice and disadvantage to AT users.<br><br>As Doug mentioned on Friday, icon is widely used in web development for graphics associated with buttons, menu items and toolbars. And I think that is a valid role. <br><br><br> <table border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"><tr valign="top"><td width="341" valign="bottom"><div align="center"><font size="4">Regards, <br><br>Fred Esch <br>Accessibility, Watson Innovations<br>AARB Complex Visualization Working Group Chair<br>W3C SVG Accessibility Task Force <br></font><img src="cid:1__=8FBBF4C4DFD2434E8f9e8a93df938690918c8FB@" width="243" height="50" alt="IBM Watson"></div></td><td width="100" valign="bottom"><img src="cid:2__=8FBBF4C4DFD2434E8f9e8a93df938690918c8FB@" width="115" height="115" alt="Fred" align="bottom"></td></tr></table><br><br><img width="16" height="16" src="cid:3__=8FBBF4C4DFD2434E8f9e8a93df938690918c8FB@" border="0" alt="Inactive hide details for "White, Jason J" ---05/30/2015 01:55:55 PM---> On May 30, 2015, at 04:20, chaals@yandex-team.ru wrote"><font color="#424282">"White, Jason J" ---05/30/2015 01:55:55 PM---> On May 30, 2015, at 04:20, chaals@yandex-team.ru wrote: ></font><br><br><font size="2" color="#5F5F5F">From: </font><font size="2">"White, Jason J" <jjwhite@ets.org></font><br><font size="2" color="#5F5F5F">To: </font><font size="2">"chaals@yandex-team.ru" <chaals@yandex-team.ru></font><br><font size="2" color="#5F5F5F">Cc: </font><font size="2">"lwatson@paciellogroup.com" <lwatson@paciellogroup.com>, "public-svg-a11y@w3.org" <public-svg-a11y@w3.org></font><br><font size="2" color="#5F5F5F">Date: </font><font size="2">05/30/2015 01:55 PM</font><br><font size="2" color="#5F5F5F">Subject: </font><font size="2">Re: Minutes: SVG A11y TF telecon, 29th May 2015</font><br><hr width="100%" size="2" align="left" noshade style="color:#8091A5; "><br><br><br><tt><br>> On May 30, 2015, at 04:20, chaals@yandex-team.ru wrote:<br>><br>><br>> A couple of comments on the proposed roles:<br>><br>> 1. Can we just redefine "image”?<br><br>From the ARIA 1.1 draft:<br><br>----<br>A container for a collection of elements that form an image.<br><br>An img can contain captions and descriptive text, as well as multiple image files that when viewed together give the impression of a single image. An img represents a single graphic within a document, whether or not it is formed by a collection of drawing objects. In order for elements with a role of img be perceivable, authors must provide alternative text or a label determined by the accessible name calculation.<br>——<br><br>Thus, it is already a compound object, though the above description isn’t exactly what we have in mind for it.<br><br>><br>> What breaks if we redefine the image role so that it may have explorable children?<br><br>Possibly nothing. A definite answer to that question would be helpful here.<br><br>><br>> 2. What is the difference between icon and symbol?<br>><br>> If the only difference is that one might be a button, and the other not, then I think we're splitting hairs and should just have one of them.<br>Unfortunately I had to leave the call just as this part of the conversation was starting. Based on the mailing list discussion, though, my understanding is that “symbol” is meant to represent the same kind of object as “icon”, but the former is a component of an SVG document whereas the latter is the entire image that comprises the SVG document.<br><br>I don’t think the ARIA semantics should depend on whether or not an entity can occur as a component of a larger graphic, however. There may be other distinctions between the two that I’m not appreciating, though.<br><br><br>________________________________<br><br>This e-mail and any files transmitted with it may contain privileged or confidential information. It is solely for use by the individual for whom it is intended, even if addressed incorrectly. If you received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender; do not disclose, copy, distribute, or take any action in reliance on the contents of this information; and delete it from your system. 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