W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > public-socialweb@w3.org > September 2014

Draft Minutes for the Sept 30th call

From: Harry Halpin <hhalpin@w3.org>
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2014 20:07:08 +0200
Message-ID: <542AF14C.5040208@w3.org>
To: "public-socialweb@w3.org" <public-socialweb@w3.org>
Hash: SHA1

Minutes here: (scribe take to wiki if possible - that's you Owen Shepard!)


              - DRAFT -

                Social Web Working Group Teleconference

30 Sep 2014


      [2] https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2014-09-30

   See also: [3]IRC log

      [3] http://www.w3.org/2014/09/30-social-irc


          bret, jasnell, Sandro, Arnaud, Lloyd_Fassett,
          elf-pavlik, jtauber, hhalpin, Tantek, bblfish,
          +1.703.670.aaaa, evanpro, Shane, MarkC, markus,
          dromasca, wilkie, oshepherd




     * [4]Topics
         1. [5]How does AS2 diverge from JSON-LD (Action 2)
         2. [6]TPAC
         3. [7]Activity Streams 2
     * [8]Summary of Action Items

   <trackbot> Date: 30 September 2014

   <bblfish> zakim IPCaller.a is me

   <bblfish> Zakim [IPCaller.a is me

   <bblfish> Zakim [IPCaller.a] is me

   <tommorris> Apologies for absence: I am travelling today
   following medical treatment.

   <harry> trackbot, start meeting

   <tantek> apologies for the beeps but that worked! :)

   <trackbot> Meeting: Social Web Working Group Teleconference

   <trackbot> Date: 30 September 2014

   <harry> jtauber, can you scribe?

   <evanpro> harry: jtauber scribed last week

   <jtauber> Arnaud: I did the minutes wiki page

   <bret> hey all, I'll be joining the call today too

   <bret> tommorris: :( hope you feel better and your travels go

   <jtauber> Arnaud: sorry, I'm still getting used to the process

   <evanpro> (I think)

   <Loqi> it'll be ok

   <tommorris> thanks bret

   I can scribe

   (I forgot my headset again...)

   <harry> scribe: oshepard

   Arnaud: participation is still limited to members... number of
   invited expert applications, still working through list

   <harry> Can we hold approving minutes till end of agenda?

   <bret> Totally understandable and reasonable

   <harry> I am still fixing the draft minutes up

   Arnaud: and balancing desire between W3C being inclusive and
   keeping WG productive
   ... and ensuring that people who should be W3C members are

   <Arnaud> [9]http://www.w3.org/2014/09/23-social-minutes.html

      [9] http://www.w3.org/2014/09/23-social-minutes.html

   <Arnaud> [10]https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2014-09-30

     [10] https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2014-09-30


     [11] https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2014-09-23-minutes

   Arnaud: Agreed that minutes would be transcribed to wiki,
   turned into wiki page following a defined template.
   ... Asking scribe to transcribe, post to mailing list once done
   so that people can discuss the cleaned up minutes, so that they
   have a heads up to chime in on last week's minutes

   <evanpro> +1

   <jtauber> my apologies for not getting it done in a timely
   fashion (still learning)

   <Arnaud> Proposed: approve minutes of 23 September:

     [12] https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2014-09-23-minutes

   <jasnell> +1 to approve

   <Shane> +1

   <harry> RESOLVED: Approve minutes of 23 September

   <harry> (tentative)

   <harry> Let's hold a week to object over mailing list and maybe
   fix up minutes

   <elf-pavlik> +1

   tantek: Just saying for folks that if you have any objections
   with the minutes you should speak up

   Arnaud: People have a week after call to raise comments on
   resolutions, past week's minutes, etc
   ... So scribe should attempt to make sure that minutes are out
   promptly to maximize this time
   ... Looking at list of open actions...

   <jasnell> link?

   <elf-pavlik> [13]http://www.w3.org/Social/track/actions/2

     [13] http://www.w3.org/Social/track/actions/2

   <Arnaud> action-2

   <trackbot> action-2 -- James Snell to Describe how as2 diverges
   from json-ld and manages the compatibility -- due 2014-09-16 --

   <trackbot> [14]http://www.w3.org/Social/track/actions/2

     [14] http://www.w3.org/Social/track/actions/2

How does AS2 diverge from JSON-LD (Action 2)

   jasnell: This is in progress... as a result of conversations
   last week with regards to whether we are going to go with
   JSON-LD or not
   ... the changes themselves are already in spec document
   ... divergences are not called out specifically, but they're
   ... going to go into that in more detail

   <Arnaud> action-4

   <trackbot> action-4 -- Arnaud Le Hors to Add "what is the role
   of social wg, ig and cg?" as an faq to
   [15]https://www.w3.org/wiki/socialwg#faq -- due 2014-09-23 --

     [15] https://www.w3.org/wiki/socialwg#faq

   <trackbot> [16]http://www.w3.org/Social/track/actions/4

     [16] http://www.w3.org/Social/track/actions/4

   Arnaud: (Procedural) It is impolite to give other people
   actions without their consent
   ... Moving on...


   Arnaud: Reminded that regisrtation ends on October (28th ?)

   <harry> So if you haven't register, register *now*

   <harry> Oct 8th

   Arnaud: Running out of space, if you haven't registered yet,
   register now

   <harry> Oct 27-28th is our meeting

   <harry> oct 27-28th is our meeting

   Arnaud: Talking about adding a BOF session with Schema.org. Not
   joining WG or WG meeting, but BOF during wednesday plenary so
   we can discuss matters with them

   <harry> Oct 29th is a schema.org BOF, Google will attend.

   Arnaud: (At least 2 people from Google, someone from Yandex) to
   see if there is any synergy or can be any transfer of work

   <tantek> happy to hold an indieweb BOF as well

   <evanpro> +1

   <harry> +1

   <evanpro> tantek: Indieweb BOF would be great

   Arnaud: I have setup meeting pages on the wiki for this
   meeting, again invite everybody to go to page and indicate if
   they are intending to attend in person or remotely and to
   indicate which topic they would like to be discussed

   <harry> Add here:

     [17] http://www.w3.org/wiki/TPAC2014/SessionIdeas

   <harry> for TPAC BOFs on Wednesday

   Arnaud: Can't guarantee we will be able to acommodate, but have
   done in past and has worked well; aranging things to fit other
   people's timezones where possible
   ... As we get closer to meeting, will try to set up an agenda
   which provides specific time frames as for when we intend to
   talk about what
   ... Always difficult to work out how much time each topic will
   take, but good to have an agenda so we have some reference,
   even if we are somewhat flexible around that
   ... Moving on from procedural work towards specifications we
   have to discuss...

Activity Streams 2

   Arnaud: We already aimed to publish document by TPAC. Is there
   anything in the wya of attaining that goal?

   jasnell: Have updated the vocabulary document based upon
   technical feedback received so far, regarding link value and
   relationship with link relations and JSON-LD alignment
   ... Sent out detailed note yestefday and another this moring
   detailing what these changes are
   ... Apologise that these are long notes, will take time to go
   through, but do cover everything changed
   ... Second document (covers serialziation, syntax) will be
   updated tomorrow; by friday indent to have drafts of all
   ... Can discuss if we are to publish these as FPWD in time for

   <harry> The key is to get it *decided* by TPAC

   <harry> it might not appear on Web for a week or so after.

   <tantek> no, sooner

   <harry> with its official status

   Arnaud: Aiming to get document published by the ??nd of
   October, lots of W3C admin processes to go through especially
   for FPWD

   <harry> although the Github Editor's Draft will be accurate

   Arnaud: Need to get webmasters to publish document, etc.

   <harry> and up to date on day off.

   Arnaud: Aiming for document by end of this week, decision on
   14th of October

   <tantek> Arnaud: aim to make decision by 2014-10-14

   <tantek> +1 on make decision by 2014-10-14

   Arnaud: By then must have reviewed draft, must be able to vote
   as to whether we should publish as a FPWD

   <harry> If we ask for FPWD by Oct 14th, then we'll have it
   published by TPAC

   <tantek> to publish FPWD

   Arnaud: Not discussion of if things are done, etc; just if the
   document is reasonable, so we have a stick in the ground
   ... Does it sound reasonable to have decision by 14th? That
   gives us 2 weeks before TPAC to get doc published, which is

   <tantek> note that FPWD is a starting point. We are allowed to
   make plenty of changes, including breaking changes.

   <tantek> we can publish updated WD as often as we the WG can
   review and agree to publish

   <tantek> elf-pavlik: issue tracking per spec is up to the

   <tantek> in this case, the editor has indicated he prefers
   github issues on his drafts

   jasnell: We do have a draft now, working on edits to that.
   Putting updated draft in branch on GitHub. Would suggest people
   review both, so that we can fall back to older draft if changes
   are not yet ready for FPWD

   <Shane> Is there a set amount of drafts that we are allowed to

   <tantek> Shane - no set amount.

   <Zakim> tantek, you wanted to discuss AS2 approval for FPWD

   Arnaud: Important to signal to group when you freeze the
   doucment so that we can have stable draft for people to review
   (limited time etc)

   <jasnell> Yes Please.

   tantek: Decided to publish by 14th, given how much iteration
   jasnell has been doing, don't wait until Friday to review
   document, please review ASAP

   <harry> FPWDs are usually pretty sketchy

   tantek: Think document is in very stable space, especially for
   FPWD, on Friday please check what changes he has made since

   <harry> so we are in good shape relative to other WGs, nothing
   is in stone as well

   <bblfish> yes, but in my experience from the LDP WG once
   something is in FPWD it is very difficult to remove something

   <jasnell> this is the updated version to review:


   tantek: On Friday you will still have 14 days to raise any
   issues, though I don't think will be any blockers

   <Zakim> elf-pavlik, you wanted to discuss discussions on
   mailing list of github issues?

   <bblfish> because there is a prejudice for something to be in
   the draft, so you have to get a lot of consensus to get it out

   <jasnell> to view as HTML locally, check out the
   ontology-approach branch

   <bret> mic is garbled

   <bblfish> yes, voice is garbled

   <harry> I think elf is asking if jasnell prefers github issues
   or not

   <jasnell> git clone -b ontology-approach

     [19] https://github.com/jasnell/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams.git

   <tantek> jasnell - please provide a URL that doesn't require
   executing any command lines

   elf-pavlik: What channel should we use to discuss issues on
   drafts, Github or WG ML?

   <jasnell> tantek: I will have to do that a bit later today

   Arnaud: Discussed point before, important operational issue.
   Would personally prefer people use tracker+ml because
   connected, but some people prefer GitHub.

   <tantek> jasnell - ok for you to take that as an action?

   <harry> I've seen both used well

   <harry> for small issues, github issues make sense

   <bret> tantek:


   <harry> for larger design issues, use the WG/tracker

   <tantek> jasnell - is that correct?


   <harry> WebCrypto and a few other WGs do that productively

   Arnaud: Up to editor which way they want to do it. Been raised
   before that for smaller issues GitHub is probably OK, but for
   bigger issues should probably be raised on the WG/Tracker so
   whole ML is aware

   <jasnell> bret: thanks ;-) ... that doesn't seem to pull in the
   respec formatting but that works

   <bret> dang!

   harry: The problem if we raised issues for any minor semantic
   issue, overloads tracker and ML with noise, so chuck on GitHub
   unless you think needs formal discussion from WG

   <jasnell> I'll push the branch to the gh-pages branch a bit
   later this morning

   Arnaud: James, are there any technical issues you would like us
   to discuss now?


     [22] https://github.com/jasnell/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/issues

   jasnell: So it looks like elf-pavlik has raised a bunch I have
   not yet gone into regarding link relations, etc.
   ... most seem to be low level technical issues don't need to
   get into right here
   ... One regarding issue of audience targetting, how we identify
   ... Automatic testing
   ... Nothing which sticks out as needing urgent review here


     [23] https://github.com/jasnell/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/issues

   Arnaud: To WG, are there any issues you would like to talk
   about now?

   <jasnell> issue
   ues/19 is resolved by the proposed vocab update


   Arnaud: Hope we have verified what is expected to happen with
   ... Should we discuss ActivityStreams vocabulary?

   <elf-pavlik> who managed to read updated documents?

   jasnell: As I said, I did post the changes to WG.
   ... in response to Tantek's response on IRC, will be pushing
   update to github pages after call, so everyone can see nicely
   formatted version easily
   ... There are some fairly significant changes, e.g. type value
   has been removed; link value has been refactored into Link
   ... End result is that there are some fairly important changes
   to the abstract model, but syntax isn't much changed. Mostly
   semantic changes
   ... Major change is Actions have been folded into the
   ActivityStreams main vocabulary; were previously in separate
   ... Will see things like Potential Action, ActionHandlers, etc
   ... Have reworked design so actions are more similar to
   Schema.org's actions, without introducing dependency on schema

   <Shane> I like the design being similar without a dependency

   <tantek> who just joined?

   <elf-pavlik> I wanted to clarify something on JSON-LD

   <elf-pavlik> that one can design around JSON-LD and use it
   later as JSON

   <dromasca> ??P18 is me

   <dromasca> maybe?

   <elf-pavlik> but the other way it doesn't work that well

   <tantek> let's not spend time on call on JSON-LD tutorial

   <jasnell> +1

   <elf-pavlik> as for example, i have hard time to get
   microformats2 JSON as JSON-LD



   Arnaud: <echos Tantek>, clear that JSON-LD is designed so that
   it can be consumed as JSON (but the other way is not
   necessarily true)
   ... Any question on direction taken by jasnell and vocabulary?

   <tantek> elf-pavlik: microformats2 JSON as JSON-LD is offtopic
   for this channel at this time. happy to discuss "microformats2
   JSON as JSON-LD" in Freenode IRC #microformats if you wish

   harry: I do think there is a valid point that we have heard a
   lot from elf-pavlik and wondering if anybody else would like to
   speak esp. from non-JSON-LD using community e.g. indiewebcamp
   and see if they have had time to look at spec at all

   <tantek> who just joined?

   Arnaud: To clarify, this is not intended to be published at
   same time as the spec, right?

   <tantek> jasnell we need two URL to review

   jasnell: To clarify, both AS2 vocab + syntax are intended to be
   published together

   <tantek> so we are proposing two FPWD

   <tantek> AS2 vocabs

   <tantek> AS2 syntax

   Arnaud: Process is that as people review documents, raise a
   list of issues they have, and we can start working on those
   issues and moving forward

   <jasnell> tantek: yes. the AS2 vocabs is what I posted
   yesterday. I'm working on updating the AS2 syntax today and

   Arnaud: Perfectly reasonable to publish an FPWD with open
   issues; nobody expects FPWD to have all issues closed
   ... Lastly, action handlers

   jasnell: The actions stuff has been pulled into vocabulary;
   does have a revised model
   ... As a bit of background, actions original proposal that was
   contributed overlapped fairly significantly with schema.org
   ... but took different approaches with regards to syntax and
   ... in update published yesterday, have revised model so that
   it is /closer/ to what schema.org has done, follows same basic
   model, but property names etc are slightly different, no direct
   ... aligned so that community has /one/ way of doing things,
   but don't overlap

   <tantek> are there any implementations of actions?

   Arnaud: Don't think we have discussed the merging of these two
   together in the past. It is important to indicate that we are
   abandoning separate document

   <Zakim> tantek, you wanted to respond to Harry and to respond
   to Harry as to whether any indieweb folks have looked at AS2

   <tantek> I'd prefer to keep actions separate

   <evanpro> Separate

   jasnell: The actions portion is still separate section in the
   main vocab draft, so can be separateed out if necessary

   tantek: So harry asked if anyone in Indieweb community had had
   a chance to review the AS2 draft
   ... Don't speak for commuinity, just for myself; have looked
   over some of draft, haven't done a total reading
   ... Don't see how to map some of Indieweb microformats usage
   into AS2 JSON...
   ... ...but that might just be me not quite understanding it
   yet, not going to raise as a blocker

   <Shane> I've read it but having not implemented AS, I don't
   have strong opinions either way

   tantek: As I see it, the AS2 work should continue to go
   forward, should try to figure out some form of mapping
   ... If we can't figure out some form of direct mapping, maybe
   worth bringing forth some form of proposal, not worth crossing
   bridge until we get to it

   <jasnell> I'm happy to work with you on exploring that mapping

   tantek: Regarding the actions: thats all new, as far as I
   understand, not based upon anye xisting implementations
   ... Based upon that I think we should keep it separate
   ... Don't want tthat to cause any issues for existing AS2
   syntax+vocab documents
   ... Would prefer to go to FPWD with both vocab+syntax without

   Arnaud: Need to get to bottom of that problem

   <jasnell> ok, so the proposal should be: keep actions
   vocabulary in a separate document from the activity vocabulary

   evanpro: I was going to second that. Not sure if actions are
   really necessary for our FPWD, may take a lot of our time
   ... I think architecture of AS is such that they fit in

   Arnaud: Not sure if much to discuss, hearing multiple nods as
   to people prefering to keep things separate
   ... Inviting silent ones to chime in on keeing things separate

   oshepherd: +1 on separating

   <elf-pavlik> any drawbacks of having 4 documents rather then 2

   <wilkie> +1 keep them separate

   jasnell: No real objection to separating things out, am
   agnostic, can go either way as to if one or two documents
   ... ...Looking at IRC, looks like folks prefer keeping separate

   <Arnaud> Proposed: Keep Action spec separate

   <Shane> I agree with separate, though if they can be linked
   together for easy navigation then that would be useful

   <harry> In general, we minimize documents

   <evanpro> +1


   <jasnell> +0

   <Shane> +1

   <wilkie> +1

   <tantek> +1

   <elf-pavlik> +0.5

   <markus> +0

   <tantek> modularity++

   <Arnaud> Resolved: Keep Action spec separate

   jasnell: No problem, will separate those out

   <Loqi> modularity has 2 karma

   Arnaud: We have reached the end of our agenda. Any more
   comments on actions before we move on?

   <bblfish> Is there an overview to the actions spec?

   Arnaud: I think elf brought up a question on ML?

   <elf-pavlik> about *Implementations Task Force*

   <jasnell> Actions is going to require close review and
   discussion. I will write up an overview bblfish

   evanpro: So the thing I wanted to bring up as a point of
   business is that we have on our schedule the intention to start
   looking at
   ... some social API candidates and patterns, this week and next
   week, would like to start collecting social API candidates


     [26] https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Social_API_candidates

   <tantek> aside re: actions, we have had more implementation
   experience with webactions, see
   [27]http://indiewebcamp.com/webactions#IndieWeb_Examples for
   actual usage on public websites.

     [27] http://indiewebcamp.com/webactions#IndieWeb_Examples

   evanpro: Will see if I can make a wiki page

   <tantek> evanpro++ for sharing an empty wiki page to be filled
   in :)

   <Loqi> evanpro has 1 karma

   <jasnell> Do we have a list of requirements for the Social API
   that we can use to evaluate candidates?

   evanpro: As we go into discussing social API with our
   contributions of the AS portion of OpenSocial, would like to
   see some others so we can evaluate multiple candidates

   <tantek> jasnell - # of implementations would be a good start

   Arnaud: So people to go to wiki page and add candidates?

   evanpro: Exactly

   harry: I'd just like to rather quickly address elf's point
   ... I think that the WG is the implementation group. Don't
   think it mkaes sense to separate out the implementation folks

   <tantek> Harry: working group is the implementation group. no
   need for separate task force.

   <tantek> +1 to what Harry said

   <Shane> +1 for WG is the implementation group

   harry: Don't think task forces make sense given our numbers at
   this point; TF unneeded for a WG of this scale
   ... Usually less meetings = more productivity, so don't think
   we want the overhead of extra impls
   ... Would love to see people listing implementations, stats on
   estimated users if possible

   <elf-pavlik> makese sense

   Arnaud: See several people have agreed with people on IRC.
   Seems to be premature, not sure what the purpose of an
   implementers group would be

   <elf-pavlik> agreed!

   <jasnell> relevant to impls discussion:

     [28] https://www.w3.org/wiki/Activity_Streams#Implementations

   Arnaud: Don't think we have the critical mass at which it is
   necessary to split into multiple formal groups
   ... We have reached the end of the agenda, unless people have
   anything to bring up, we can end the meeting early...

   <jasnell> harry: +1

   <bret> I will look over it

   Arnaud: ...and you can use the free time to reviwe those drafts

   <Zakim> tantek, you wanted to ask about criteria for minimal

   <jasnell> I'd like to see a review from *everyone* ;-)

   tantek: So I wanted to raise one of the points that we have
   made in this WG
   ... (Pretty sure it is in the charter) that we should try to
   come up with minimal vocab
   ... So in particular when reviewing the AS2 draft pay special
   attention to and provide feedback on what of the vocabulary you
   find useful
   ... and what of the vocab, espeically if you have implemented
   AS1 or AS2 or similar functionality, what terms and values you
   have shipped, what you haven't

   <harry> +1 data-driven design

   tantek: That information is useful to WG, if we see clear
   pattetns that implementers only care about 80% of terms, we can
   use that to make the vocab smaller
   ... Smaller standard benefits everyone

   <harry> [or empirical driven design if possible]

   <wilkie> tantek: where should we put that?

   tantek: So people please provide your implementation experience

   <bret> does pump.io use all of AS?

   tantek: so we can aim for minimal set based upon real world

   <jasnell> wilkie: either to the mailing list, wiki or the
   github issues

   Arnaud: Would like to remind people that as a part of the W3C
   spec track, there will be a point at which we have a call for
   implementations, at which point we need 2 implementations of
   _every_ feature to move forward

   <tantek> wilkie: wiki!

   Arnaud: May be a case where we have seomthing we thought was a
   good idea but nobody is implementing it, so we need to publish
   new draft

   <jasnell> wikie: you can post elsewhere, but please at least
   post a permanent url to the mailing list or github issues so I
   can better keep track

   <bret> tantek: which wiki page?

   Arnaud: this causes delays, best to avoid if necessary
   ... Have a feature like this in LDP WG

   <Shane> /implementation-feedback would be a nice url

   Arnaud: We have a concept of a "feature at risk"; if we have a
   feature we aren't sure of, we can mark a feature like this
   indicating that we aren't sure if we are going to move forward
   with feature

   <tantek> bret how about /socialwg/vocab-implementations ?

   <tantek> where we can document each implementation and what
   vocab it uses?

   <harry> trackbot, end meeting

   Arnaud: With everything said, looks like we can close this call
   a little early. Thank you all; see you again next week; meeting

Summary of Action Items

   [End of minutes]
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