RE: Summary and Minutes of Silver Conformance Subgroup Meeting of 15 October 2019

I agree that it makes the most sense to continue capturing all of the challenges into their own doc.  Please do carry on!  Thank you!

It probably doesn’t matter if David and I see lots of overlap and you and Jeanne see very little.  As you note, the home for the information is TBD.


From: Korn, Peter <pkorn@lab126.com>
Sent: Thursday, October 17, 2019 4:18 PM
To: Bruce Bailey <Bailey@Access-Board.gov>; David MacDonald <david100@sympatico.ca>; Jeanne Spellman <jspellman@spellmanconsulting.com>
Cc: Silver Task Force <public-silver@w3.org>
Subject: Re: Summary and Minutes of Silver Conformance Subgroup Meeting of 15 October 2019

Hi Bruce, David, all,

I’ve since read through WCAG-EM, and I honestly don’t see a lot of real overlap.  What overlap I find is in the characterization of the WCAG 2.x conformance model (that WCAG 2.x defines conformance only for a single page or a few pages that are all steps of a single process; and that WCAG 2.x defines a “conformance claim” as being valid only for a few pages at most), and in the recognition that large sites have too many pages for all of them to be scanned.

But from what I read, WCAG-EM still carries forward the core idea from the WCAG 2.x conformance model that whatever pages are scanned, those pages must result in 100% support of all of the SCs (at A, AA, or AAA level) in order to make a “conformance evaluation”.  As such, it doesn’t take into account a number of the key challenges that the Challenges doc. cites.  And frankly, I doubt any sampling approach could do that – but I’m certainly open to being proved wrong.

Therefore, I think what makes the most sense is to continue capturing all of the challenges into their own doc., and once that work is substantially completed, look at how we can best develop approaches that address those challenges – whether in WCAG-EM, and/or in Silver, and/or…

Regards,

Peter
--
Peter Korn | Director, Accessibility | Amazon Lab126
pkorn@amazon.com<mailto:pkorn@amazon.com>

From: Bruce Bailey <Bailey@Access-Board.gov<mailto:Bailey@Access-Board.gov>>
Date: Thursday, October 17, 2019 at 11:13 AM
To: David MacDonald <david100@sympatico.ca<mailto:david100@sympatico.ca>>, Jeanne Spellman <jspellman@spellmanconsulting.com<mailto:jspellman@spellmanconsulting.com>>
Cc: Silver Task Force <public-silver@w3.org<mailto:public-silver@w3.org>>
Subject: RE: Summary and Minutes of Silver Conformance Subgroup Meeting of 15 October 2019
Resent-From: <public-silver@w3.org<mailto:public-silver@w3.org>>
Resent-Date: Thursday, October 17, 2019 at 11:12 AM

Thank you David for reminding us about the EM work [1][2].

Peter talked about the Challenges document for the first hour of the main AG meeting immediately following the Silver meeting.  I was scribe for that portion. [3]

I didn’t hear David say that EM addressed all the issues raised in the Challenges document, just that there was a lot of overlap (as he outlines below).  During the AG call, I noted that Peter said that he had not reviewed WCAG-EM before drafting the Challenges document.

It does seems to me that EM follows from issues described well in the Challenges documents.  OTOH, it does seem that EM could have provided more description of the factors which informed the need for EM, and that the Challenges document is a valuable resource because of this articulation.  It also seems to me that there might be the opportunity for Silver to embrace and/or extend the approaches of EM.

[1] www.w3.org/tr/wcag-em<https://nam01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2Ftr%2Fwcag-em&data=02%7C01%7CBailey%40access-board.gov%7C490734ecba5e42d939b308d7533f2cf1%7Cfc6093f5e55e4f93b2cf26d0822201c9%7C0%7C0%7C637069403120202349&sdata=Q4IXhu1MzEotVwbg0k5kW%2F1zgVoWPEZ7USIucbYEAwk%3D&reserved=0>
[2] www.w3.org/wai/test-evaluate/conformance/wcag-em<https://nam01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2Fwai%2Ftest-evaluate%2Fconformance%2Fwcag-em&data=02%7C01%7CBailey%40access-board.gov%7C490734ecba5e42d939b308d7533f2cf1%7Cfc6093f5e55e4f93b2cf26d0822201c9%7C0%7C0%7C637069403120212347&sdata=Xgte9n4Z8uvnxseOrtPeumcE2C5nZbWL9pIkYRd29mM%3D&reserved=0>
[3] www.w3.org/2019/10/15-ag-minutes.html<https://nam01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2F2019%2F10%2F15-ag-minutes.html&data=02%7C01%7CBailey%40access-board.gov%7C490734ecba5e42d939b308d7533f2cf1%7Cfc6093f5e55e4f93b2cf26d0822201c9%7C0%7C0%7C637069403120212347&sdata=7HLA2XoEzdkTG%2FCms6JhFxYO09kYCOjtuj24f5LT%2B6E%3D&reserved=0>


From: David MacDonald <david100@sympatico.ca<mailto:david100@sympatico.ca>>
Sent: Thursday, October 17, 2019 10:19 AM
To: Jeanne Spellman <jspellman@spellmanconsulting.com<mailto:jspellman@spellmanconsulting.com>>
Cc: Silver Task Force <public-silver@w3.org<mailto:public-silver@w3.org>>
Subject: Re: Summary and Minutes of Silver Conformance Subgroup Meeting of 15 October 2019

Regarding the EM which was created in 2014, there seem to be several overlaps with Peter's document.

1) Like the document Peter is working on, the EM moves away from the "every page has to conform for the site to conform" model.
2) The section on automation demonstrates that there are many pages on a large commercial site that would only get an automated crawl ... (only templates, components, sample pages, process steps etc. get a full evaluation)
3) It addresses large commercial sites that are "like a city" where things are being built and removed constantly.
4) It functionally amends the WCAG 2.0 conformance model

Hopefully, a new conformance model will emerge that will do better. Currently, I think its the best we have.


Cheers,
David MacDonald



CanAdapt Solutions Inc.

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On Tue, Oct 15, 2019 at 8:55 PM Jeanne Spellman <jspellman@spellmanconsulting.com<mailto:jspellman@spellmanconsulting.com>> wrote:
== Summary ==

1) Reviewed the comments from the AGWG meeting today about the
Challenges of Conformance document.  Jeanne thought it was well
received.  A member of AGWG said that WCAG-EM addressed all the problems
in the Challenges document.  Peter reviewed WCAG-EM before the Silver
meeting and didn't see a lot of congruence. Jeanne agreed.  Jeanne and
Shawn had discussed the publication priorities after the AGWG call and
doubt that we would have time to publish it in November.

2) We reviewed where we left off last week on Conformance minimum.  We
discussed the email from Leonie about removing all levels.  Some
feedback: a) that some minimum is needed to use Silver in a regulatory
environment (a requirement), b) it didn't provide any protection from an
organization scoring all their points for one disability and ignoring
others, and c) the scoring would need to be set up so it didn't have a
top, since new methods are always being added.

3) Angela suggested looking at individual functional need areas by how
well the overall site met the needs of people in that functional need
area.  She is going to look at it in more detail.

== Minutes ==

https://www.w3.org/2019/10/15-silver-conf-minutes.html<https://nam01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2F2019%2F10%2F15-silver-conf-minutes.html&data=02%7C01%7CBailey%40access-board.gov%7C490734ecba5e42d939b308d7533f2cf1%7Cfc6093f5e55e4f93b2cf26d0822201c9%7C0%7C0%7C637069403120252326&sdata=AIVjTq2KO%2BU7QFcd4%2B%2F73W1fPB0mwxk%2BdrMnUArTzEo%3D&reserved=0>