W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > public-silver@w3.org > July 2019

Re: thoughts points system for silver

From: John Foliot <john.foliot@deque.com>
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2019 15:28:28 -0500
Message-ID: <CAKdCpxwcz8ig2inP7cHJUL2vgNogXDu9g7RPA34GSRDn=rDidQ@mail.gmail.com>
To: "Hall, Charles (DET-MRM)" <Charles.Hall@mrm-mccann.com>
Cc: Rachael Bradley Montgomery <rachael@accessiblecommunity.org>, Silver Task Force <public-silver@w3.org>
Hi Charles,

Running with your analogy:

> If the functional needs are met to travel from point a to point b, a 25
year old Yugo is as sufficient as a brand new Ferrari.

While this is indeed correct, I will also argue that riding in one is far
superior than riding in the other - that the experience of getting from
point A to point B is significantly better in the Ferrari then the Yugo,
but that it also costs more. I'll never forget the day (and recount this
story frequently) when my buddy and our colleague Victor Tsaran said to me
"You know John, today we have the technology to make web sites accessible"
(We were chatting about ARIA at the time.) He continued "But I can't wait
for the day when they start making it fun".

Driving a Ferrari is more fun that pushing a Yugo down the street, and so
if we are to measure "fun", I'd give the Ferrari a 9 but the Yugo a 2.

Are those numbers subjective? You betcha, but among the people reading this
email, I don't think we'd have wildly differing scores: some may consider
the Ferrari ride should be a 10, or an 8, and/or the Yugo ride a 5 instead
of a 2, but I don't think we'd ever get somebody arguing that the Yugo is
more "fun" than the Ferrari (lacking a clear definition of fun in this
discussion). So the take-away is that the more money you spend on the ride,
the more "fun" it is - there is indeed a cost-benefit ration there that
could be measured.

Continuing further with the analogy; fun alone isn't the only thing we're
measuring when comparing the Yugo against the Ferrari (or vice-versa).
Chances are, the Ferrari also burns more fuel than the Yugo, the cost of
maintenance for the two vehicles may also vary wildly (or, be very, very
similar), what's the cost of insurance... there are lots of "costs" towards
the final goal, which I've expanded to more than just getting from point A
to point B. And as we think deeper about what real equitable access means,
we need to be thinking beyond the absolute minimum of getting to point B
from point A, because from my perspective, I'd rather see a fleet of
Ferrari's on the road than a collection of Yugo's, (and I also recognize
that I may not be able to afford a Ferrari, but hey, my budget allows for a
Lexus...)

Measuring the act of simply getting from point A to point B is of course
important (perhaps the most important requirement), but there are numerous
other factors - including effort and cost - that contributes to the overall
experience, which has always been my understanding as the ultimate goal.
And that unlike the binary Yogo or Ferrari, we're moving to a scale that
recognizes other 'classes' of vehicle between Yugo (fail) and Ferrari
(pass) options, like "Lexus" (70%)

More random thoughts

JF


On Thu, Jul 18, 2019 at 2:39 PM Hall, Charles (DET-MRM) <
Charles.Hall@mrm-mccann.com> wrote:

> I believe that a “process that should ensure results” is one that would be
> rewarded by the second currency of ribbons model, since “should ensure”
> does not equal “meets need”.
>
>
>
> I do agree that if the model supports any points or currency for the
> practice of usability testing, that said practice should verify (and
> possibly quantify) that it included people of a variety of functional
> needs.
>
>
>
>
>
> *Charles Hall* // Senior UX Architect
>
>
>
> (he//him)
>
> charles.hall@mrm-mccann.com
> <charles.hall@mrm-mccann.com?subject=Note%20From%20Signature>
>
> w 248.203.8723
>
> m 248.225.8179
>
> 360 W Maple Ave, Birmingham MI 48009
>
> mrm-mccann.com <https://www.mrm-mccann.com/>
>
>
>
> [image: MRM//McCann]
>
> Relationship Is Our Middle Name
>
>
>
> Network of the Year, Cannes Lions 2019
>
> Ad Age Agency A-List 2016, 2017, 2019
>
> Ad Age Creativity Innovators 2016, 2017
>
> Ad Age B-to-B Agency of the Year 2018
>
> North American Agency of the Year, Cannes 2016
>
> Leader in Gartner Magic Quadrant 2017, 2018, 2019
>
> Most Creatively Effective Agency Network in the World, Effie 2018, 2019
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From: *Rachael Bradley Montgomery <rachael@accessiblecommunity.org>
> *Date: *Thursday, July 18, 2019 at 3:04 PM
> *To: *Silver Task Force <public-silver@w3.org>
> *Subject: *[EXTERNAL] Re: thoughts points system for silver
> *Resent-From: *Silver Task Force <public-silver@w3.org>
> *Resent-Date: *Thursday, July 18, 2019 at 3:03 PM
>
>
>
> Hello,
>
>
>
> When evaluating accessibility, I've noticed there are two approaches. One,
> exemplified by the current WCAG, evaluates results. The other, exemplified
> by the Disability Equality Index
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__disabilityin.org_what-2Dwe-2Ddo_disability-2Dequality-2Dindex_&d=DwMFaQ&c=Ftw_YSVcGmqQBvrGwAZugGylNRkk-uER0-5bY94tjsc&r=FbsK8fvOGBHiAasJukQr6i2dv-WpJzmR-w48cl75l3c&m=bBaqwWJHz2lXmBEu-LGWJhhqPkbRMArGsZrSAfki2qY&s=FusdllGhGVrBFnYmuFlmilL55MEOBUwadSfX1-DD-S8&e=>,
> measures process that should ensure results.  I too have a UX background
> and in UX we can test the process  that should ensure results by asking if
> usability testing, cognitive walkthroughs, design documentation, etc were
> done. But usually we test the results which in UX is number of clicks, time
> to complete, number of errors, etc depending on the usability measure being
> tested.
>
>
>
> We are, in some ways, mixing apples and oranges by making a measure in
> silver whether the process is in place.  Would it make sense to instead
> state that usability measures tested should demonstrate a comparable
> experience in time, number of clicks, errors, etc. between people with and
> without disabilities?
>
>
>
> This isn't a fully formed thought but rather a suggested line of thinking.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
>
>
> Rachael
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jul 18, 2019 at 2:51 PM Hall, Charles (DET-MRM) <
> Charles.Hall@mrm-mccann.com> wrote:
>
> My thought here was simply that outcomes are measurable by meeting the
> guideline.
>
> I still also think / believe that from a conformance standpoint, an
> individual guideline starts with one or maybe two functional needs in mind
> when it is created, like “Use of Color” (addresses color perception
> specifically), and that meeting that need gets the points. But if I as a
> creator then test my solution with people that had multiple other
> functional needs and learn that a warning icon in addition to my red error
> text was a problem for people with anxiety disorders, and not using the
> word “error” in the text was a problem for people without usage of vision,
> and subsequently changed those 2 things to solutions that also worked for
> those functional needs, then I have essentially made a bigger human impact
> and somehow the score should reflect that.
>
>
> Charles Hall // Senior UX Architect
>
> (he//him)
> charles.hall@mrm-mccann.com <mailto:charles.hall@mrm-mccann.com
> ?subject=Note%20From%20Signature>
> w 248.203.8723
> m 248.225.8179
> 360 W Maple Ave, Birmingham MI 48009
> mrm-mccann.com <https://www.mrm-mccann.com/>
>
>
> Relationship Is Our Middle Name
>
> Network of the Year, Cannes Lions 2019
> Ad Age Agency A-List 2016, 2017, 2019
> Ad Age Creativity Innovators 2016, 2017
> Ad Age B-to-B Agency of the Year 2018
> North American Agency of the Year, Cannes 2016
> Leader in Gartner Magic Quadrant 2017, 2018, 2019
> Most Creatively Effective Agency Network in the World, Effie 2018, 2019
>
>
>
> On 7/18/19, 11:57 AM, "Léonie Watson" <lw@tetralogical.com> wrote:
>
>
>     On 18/07/2019 16:33, Hall, Charles (DET-MRM) wrote:
>     > My opinion (and I say this as a UX person) is that testing itself is
> the
>     > wrong emphasis. What the guideline should encourage is outcomes...
> > I also have a
>     > pretty strong opinion that the level of effort of the author /
> creator
>     > is both immeasurable and moot.
>
>
>     I agree on both counts.
>
>     Do you have any thoughts on how we might gauge the outcomes?
>
>
>     Léonie.
>
>     >
>     > *Charles Hall* // Senior UX Architect
>     >
>     > (he//him)
>     >
>     > charles.hall@mrm-mccann.com
>     > <mailto:charles.hall@mrm-mccann.com?subject=Note%20From%20Signature>
>     >
>     > w 248.203.8723
>     >
>     > m 248.225.8179
>     >
>     > 360 W Maple Ave, Birmingham MI 48009
>     >
>     > mrm-mccann.com <https://www.mrm-mccann.com/>
>     >
>     > MRM//McCann
>     >
>     > Relationship Is Our Middle Name
>     >
>     > Network of the Year, Cannes Lions 2019
>     >
>     > Ad Age Agency A-List 2016, 2017, 2019
>     >
>     > Ad Age Creativity Innovators 2016, 2017
>     >
>     > Ad Age B-to-B Agency of the Year 2018
>     >
>     > North American Agency of the Year, Cannes 2016
>     >
>     > Leader in Gartner Magic Quadrant 2017, 2018, 2019
>     >
>     > Most Creatively Effective Agency Network in the World, Effie 2018,
> 2019
>     >
>     > *From: *Chris Loiselle <loiselles@me.com>
>     > *Date: *Tuesday, July 16, 2019 at 10:05 AM
>     > *To: *Silver Task Force <public-silver@w3.org>
>     > *Subject: *[EXTERNAL] thoughts points system for silver
>     > *Resent-From: *Silver Task Force <public-silver@w3.org>
>     > *Resent-Date: *Tuesday, July 16, 2019 at 10:04 AM
>     >
>     > Hi Silver,
>     >
>     > Just a thought off of today's call:
>     >
>     > In regard to point system, would the fact that user testing was
>     > completed at a given organization during the development of a
> product
>     > give them extra points vs. not completing user testing at all?
>     >
>     >
>     >
>     > For each demographic of user testing, grading all user tests
> equally,
>     > would someone who tests with a user that has limited sight and a
> user
>     > that is hard of hearing not receive as many points as someone that
> tests
>     > with someone who is Blind, someone who has low vision, someone who
> is
>     > Deaf,  someone who is hard of hearing, someone with a cognitive
>     > disability (etc.)?
>     >
>     >
>     >
>     > What if the organization went deep on depth of testing with the user
> who
>     > is Blind and the user who has limited sight, but only went surface
> level
>     > (breadth) with multiple users each with a different disabilities vs.
>     > diving deep with two users ? Would those be weighted differently?
> The
>     > same? I know there was discussion on ribbons, points, badges, where
>     > would that come into play?
>     >
>     > Thank you,
>     > Chris Loiselle
>     >
>     > This message contains information which may be confidential and
>     > privileged. Unless you are the intended recipient (or authorized to
>     > receive this message for the intended recipient), you may not use,
> copy,
>     > disseminate or disclose to anyone the message or any information
>     > contained in the message. If you have received the message in error,
>     > please advise the sender by reply e-mail, and delete the message.
> Thank
>     > you very much.
>
>     --
>     @TetraLogical TetraLogical.com
>
>
>
> This message contains information which may be confidential and
> privileged. Unless you are the intended recipient (or authorized to receive
> this message for the intended recipient), you may not use, copy,
> disseminate or disclose to anyone the message or any information contained
> in the message.  If you have received the message in error, please advise
> the sender by reply e-mail, and delete the message.  Thank you very much.
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Rachael Montgomery, PhD
>
> Director, Accessible Community
>
> rachael@accessiblecommunity.org
>
>
>
>
>


-- 
*​John Foliot* | Principal Accessibility Strategist | W3C AC Representative
Deque Systems - Accessibility for Good
deque.com

image001.jpg
(image/jpeg attachment: image001.jpg)

Received on Thursday, 18 July 2019 20:29:53 UTC

This archive was generated by hypermail 2.4.0 : Thursday, 24 March 2022 20:31:46 UTC