Re: Semantic Web Usability BOF in Busan

I started a page at Max's link with a summary of this email thread so far.
The page is at http://swuiwiki.webscience.org/swuiwiki/index.php?title=ISWC2007Discussions
I hope it helps take discussion and the BoF further.

-Lloyd

Max Wilson wrote:
> This swuiwiki.webscience.org, which is a great place to output any user 
> based BOF discussion at ISWC this year, has a managed editor list but is 
> free to view by anyone. Contact details for getting an editor account 
> are on the front page. Roberto, and now Paola, along with many some now 
> have accounts.
> 
> Max Wilson
> 
> On 10 Nov 2007, at 09:51, <editor@content-wire.com 
> <mailto:editor@content-wire.com>> <editor@content-wire.com 
> <mailto:editor@content-wire.com>> wrote:
> 
>>
>> Ivan and all
>> me too leaving soon and still working on my reservations, shutingdown 
>> in a few minutes...
>>
>> Preliminary list of issues on the fly:
>>
>> 1. New semantic web tools are being released (primarily RDF based but 
>> Ontology editors and othe semantic technologiesr  too) that look as if 
>> they are promising and useful  but little or no 'usability good 
>> practices' is in place to make such applications useful to those who 
>> have never seen one before  (ie  the majority of the intended users)
>>
>> People (non developers) dont know
>> a) what to do with theb
>> b) how to do it
>>
>> 2. you can look at all the usability issues that once existed about 
>> web 1.0, great advances have been made there in term
>> of internet usability/accessibility, so that now even  grandparents 
>> can manage to check emails without prior knowledge - we are in a 
>> similar phase with semantic web applications, we (non developers, 
>> otherwise intelligent - users with different operational business and 
>> other IT background not RDF) need/want to learn how to use them and 
>> give feedback to developers, but they cant. They also feel a little 
>> helpless and stupid in the process, typical symptoms of poor usability
>>
>> Semantic technologies are now designed to be used by specialists 
>> (understandable as these are mostly alpha/beta, but as they become 
>> more and more pervasive, also their usability must increase)
>>
>> 3. Genral lack of guidelines, how to's and comprehensive list of 
>> tutorials and support for people who would like to use the
>> things, as well as for developers who dont know what seem to 
>> understand what the issues are. Sometimes semantic web tools appear 
>> mysterious in appearance and functionality to the uninitated.
>>
>>
>> I think in the BOF we could aim to expand the above list of 'issues' 
>> with inputs from different viewpoints, identify what is the cause of 
>> lack of usability, discuss possible initiatives that could increase 
>> usability, including possibly some futuristic web based 
>> application/service to collect all the user comments from semantic 
>> test environments and gather them in a repository that could be used 
>> to develop tutorials (support the users) as well as guidelines (help 
>> the developers develop more friendly tools following appropriate 
>> guidelines). Anything else that interested contributors feel should be 
>> added/discussed
>>
>>
>> Wiki
>>
>> I tried to log into Roberto's suggested wiki, but cannot creat an 
>> account (the option login/create account only leads to
>> a login screen, not a create account one) I have already written to 
>> Robert about it
>>
>> Could not find conference wiki
>>
>> Any wiki where I can write to would be good at stage, if you can set 
>> one up quickly on the way to the airport
>> and post the contents of this message, if we dont hear from Roberto 
>> otherwise, would be fine for me
>>
>> Thanks Ivan and all
>> Please note that your reply if you dont cc my gmail
>>
>>
>> look forward
>>
>> PDM
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ivan Herman" <ivan@w3.org 
>> <mailto:ivan@w3.org>>
>> To: <editor@content-wire.com <mailto:editor@content-wire.com>>
>> Cc: <emmanuelle@sidar.org <mailto:emmanuelle@sidar.org>>; "'T.Heath'" 
>> <T.Heath@open.ac.uk <mailto:T.Heath@open.ac.uk>>; "'SW-forum Web'" 
>> <semantic-web@w3.org <mailto:semantic-web@w3.org>>
>> Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2007 3:29 PM
>> Subject: Re: Semantic Web Usability BOF in Busan
>>
>>
>> Setting up a wiki page on ESW is not a problem; but Roberto referred to
>> an existing page already. Whichever people feel is better.
>>
>> I would still like to understand the issues first.
>>
>> Is there some sort of a wiki or other option set up for ISWC
>> participants? It would be a good place to organize such ad hoc
>> get-togethers... I have tried to find at the ISWC page, but have not
>> found any.
>>
>> Ivan
>>
>> P.S. Leaving for Korea in about 5 hours...
>>
>> editor@content-wire.com <mailto:editor@content-wire.com> wrote:
>>> Dear Ivan and all
>>>
>>> thanks for the interest in this issue
>>> it will be good to meet
>>>
>>> It looks like from the responses so far that we have some momentum, and
>>> considering I cannot quite help with the debugging of the applications
>>> just as yet , I ll be happy to help foster a plan
>>>
>>> Is there a W3C wiki page dedicated to Usability of Semantic Web where I
>>> can post some notes? If not shall I open a wiki elsewhere? Thanks
>>>
>>> The people who have expressed explicit interest so far are
>>> Emmanuelle Sidar
>>> Tom Heath  Open U
>>> Knud Hinner Deri
>>> M Daquin Open U
>>> Hugh Glaser
>>> Roberto Garcia
>>> J Chetwynd
>>> Richard Cygniak
>>> Ivan Herman
>>> (update this list if I missed anyone)
>>> Adrian Walker sent some notes (havent read yet)
>>> [1]
>>> www.reengineeringllc.com/Internet_Business_Logic_e-Government_Presentation.pdf
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Except for those who are not in Busan, whom we shall keep posted of any
>>> discussions and outcomes on list,  I look forward to be meeting
>>> everybody in the next few days
>>>
>>> Tom Heath suggests a  BOF meeting at lunch on Thursday, which may be
>>> fine for some but others may have flown already by then, so anyone who
>>> can make it for lunch contact Tom directly to get details/directions
>>>
>>> I hope that maybe an additional/alternative informal get together before
>>> Thursday an be arranged, for those who still have a spare slot and may
>>> have left by Thursday -  email your availability and/or just catch me (
>>> I ll try to wear a tshirt
>>> that says SEMANTIC USABILITY  if I can get it printed on the fly)
>>>
>>> i am best contacted via  paola.dimaio ATDONOTSPAMMEANYMORE gmail.com,
>>> but cannot post to list from there
>>>
>>> With the OK of the organisers, I will put up a notice on the conference
>>> message board about details
>>>
>>> Look forward!
>>> Thanks a lot for interest
>>>
>>> Cheers
>>> Paola Di Maio
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ivan Herman" <ivan@w3.org 
>>> <mailto:ivan@w3.org>>
>>> To: <editor@content-wire.com <mailto:editor@content-wire.com>>
>>> Cc: <emmanuelle@sidar.org <mailto:emmanuelle@sidar.org>>; "'T.Heath'" 
>>> <T.Heath@open.ac.uk <mailto:T.Heath@open.ac.uk>>; "'SW-forum
>>> Web'" <semantic-web@w3.org <mailto:semantic-web@w3.org>>
>>> Sent: Friday, November 09, 2007 7:01 PM
>>> Subject: Re: Semantic Web Usability BOF in Busan
>>>
>>>
>>> I will be there. And I would like to understand the issues and whether
>>> W3C is in position to do something about those.
>>>
>>> Note that W3C has been facing the issue of usability for a long time
>>> (Semantic or not Semantic Web) but we could never get enough member
>>> enthusiasm to start something more serious in the area.... (except for
>>> the web accessibility area which probably includes a subset of the
>>> general usability issues).
>>>
>>> Ivan
>>>
>>> editor@content-wire.com <mailto:editor@content-wire.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I think Tom and I and others may meet in Busan next week, this is
>>>> something I ll put in my agenda too to instigate about. Anyone else on
>>>> this list is going to be in Busan, and has an interest in Usability and
>>>> Accessibility and related issues, please mail me online and I ll post
>>>> details of any time/place suggested for an informal get together to
>>>> scheme something up
>>>> cheers
>>>> Paola Di Maio
>>>> www.mfu.ac.th
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Emmanuelle Gutiรฉrrez y Restrepo"
>>>> <emmanuelle@sidar.org <mailto:emmanuelle@sidar.org>>
>>>> To: "'T.Heath'" <T.Heath@open.ac.uk <mailto:T.Heath@open.ac.uk>>; 
>>>> <editor@content-wire.com <mailto:editor@content-wire.com>>;
>>>> "'SW-forum Web'" <semantic-web@w3.org <mailto:semantic-web@w3.org>>
>>>> Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2007 7:01 AM
>>>> Subject: RE: User testing for semantic applicatons
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hi Tom and all,
>>>>
>>>> Yes, you are right, and it has not been my intention, "tar you all
>>>> with the
>>>> same brush".
>>>> But I know a lot of developers of semantics applications, which are 
>>>> nice,
>>>> intelligent, and whom I greatly appreciate; And yet not often worry 
>>>> about
>>>> the accessibility of his creatures.
>>>>
>>>> I think that the Paola's idea can be useful. We are working in some
>>>> similar,
>>>> so maybe we can work on it togheter.
>>>>
>>>> And we can think in another ideas. But I think that the W3C has some
>>>> type of
>>>> responsability on it too. And I'm sure that they can do something
>>>> about it.
>>>>
>>>> All the best,
>>>> Emmanuelle
>>>>
>>>> Emmanuelle Gutiรฉrrez y Restrepo  Fundaciรณn Sidar
>>>> Coordinadora del SIDAR www.sidar.org <http://www.sidar.org>
>>>> Email: coordina@sidar.org <mailto:coordina@sidar.org>
>>>> Tel.: +34 - 91 725 71 47
>>>>
>>>> -----Mensaje original-----
>>>> De: T.Heath [mailto:T.Heath@open.ac.uk]
>>>> Enviado el: miรฉrcoles, 07 de noviembre de 2007 16:04
>>>> Para: emmanuelle@sidar.org <mailto:emmanuelle@sidar.org>; 
>>>> editor@content-wire.com <mailto:editor@content-wire.com>; SW-forum Web
>>>> Asunto: RE: User testing for semantic applicatons
>>>>
>>>> Hi Emmanuelle,
>>>>
>>>> I understand and share your apparent frustration, but please don't
>>>> "tar us
>>>> all with the same brush" [1] :) There are many people working in the
>>>> Semantic Web field who care deeply about understanding, and catering to,
>>>> the
>>>> needs of human users (yes, you and I agree, humans are the Semantic 
>>>> Web's
>>>> ultimate target audience). Last year's SWUI workshop at ISWC [2] and the
>>>> next in the series [3] at CHI2008 are good indicators of this 
>>>> commitment.
>>>>
>>>> Sadly, and despite this, the human agenda doesn't always get the
>>>> recognition
>>>> it deserves in the community. Some additional initiatives in this area
>>>> would
>>>> be a great idea I think :)
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>>
>>>> Tom.
>>>>
>>>> [1] http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/tar+with+the+same+brush
>>>> [2] http://swui.semanticweb.org/swui06/
>>>> [3] http://swui.semanticweb.org/SWUI2008CHI/
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: semantic-web-request@w3.org 
>>>> <mailto:semantic-web-request@w3.org> on behalf of Emmanuelle 
>>>> Gutiรฉrrez y
>>>> Restrepo
>>>> Sent: Wed 07/11/2007 12:27 PM
>>>> To: editor@content-wire.com <mailto:editor@content-wire.com>; 
>>>> 'SW-forum Web'
>>>> Subject: RE: User testing for semantic applicatons
>>>>
>>>> Hi "PDM",
>>>>
>>>> I agree with you. There are a lot of work around the "semantic web" and
>>>> maybe is a good work for the "machines". But I can't understand why the
>>>> people working on it don't care about accessibility. The semantic web is
>>>> nothing if can't be useful for the humans.
>>>>
>>>> Accessibility means usability for all. So, I think that complain 
>>>> with the
>>>> WCAG must be *prerequisite* for each semantic web application.
>>>>
>>>> Best regards,
>>>> Emmanuelle Gutiรฉrrez y Restrepo         Fundaciรณn Sidar
>>>> Coordinadora del SIDAR                  www.sidar.org
>>>> Email: coordina@sidar.org <mailto:coordina@sidar.org>
>>>> Tel.: +34 - 91 725 71 47
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  _____
>>>>
>>>> De: semantic-web-request@w3.org [mailto:semantic-web-request@w3.org] En
>>>> nombre de editor@content-wire.com <mailto:editor@content-wire.com> 
>>>> Enviado el: miรฉrcoles, 07 de
>>>> noviembre de
>>>> 2007 11:40
>>>> Para: SW-forum Web
>>>> Asunto: User testing for semantic applicatons
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I must say something
>>>> There are a lot of cool applications coming up, I try most of them , but
>>>> they are new I am not sure what to expect exactly. What should it do?
>>>> How do
>>>> I know if there is an error, or if this is really the way it should 
>>>> look?
>>>> Little documentation, usability almost not taken into account etc.
>>>> Also I dont have all day, just a few minutes, a few clicks, then I lose
>>>> interest, must move on
>>>>
>>>> Now, the linked data below is quite straighforward intuitive interface
>>>> (not
>>>> bad in fact) although a few more explanations and how to's would be
>>>> good. I
>>>> also got an error when I tried it (different from the error below) not
>>>> sure
>>>> what to do next
>>>>
>>>> All this to suggest  a forum is created to handle usability of semantic
>>>> applications, where we 'users' can report our experiences and get some
>>>> help
>>>> in running/understanding the stuffs. I have a lot of feedback and user
>>>> tests
>>>> already running on semantic applications, may be most productive if
>>>> handled
>>>> collectively and shared, rather than just sent to the developers who are
>>>> likely not to understand my problem anyway (we seem to speak different
>>>> languages)
>>>>
>>>> thoughts?
>>>> cheers
>>>> PDM
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: Tim Berners-Lee <mailto:timbl@w3.org>
>>>> To: Hugh Glaser <mailto:hg@ecs.soton.ac.uk>
>>>> Cc: Linking Open Data <mailto:linking-open-data@simile.mit.edu>  ;
>>>> SW-forum
>>>> Web <mailto:semantic-web@w3.org>  ; Ian  <mailto:icm@ecs.soton.ac.uk>
>>>> Millard
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2007 11:15 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: Linked Data available
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Umm ,,, in
>>>> http://nsf.rkbexplorer.com/data/person-6092a2a72319fc9437583fb2d04733ea 
>>>> I
>>>> get
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Request for
>>>> http://nsf.rkbexplorer.com/data/person-6092a2a72319fc9437583fb2d04733eaabout
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> under the hood
>>>> Label Request for
>>>> http://nsf.rkbexplorer.com/data/person-6092a2a72319fc9437583fb2d04733ea
>>>> Status 200
>>>> StatusText OK
>>>> Accept-ranges bytes
>>>> Connection close
>>>> Content-length 2005
>>>> Content type text/xml
>>>> Date Wed, 07 Nov 2007 00:27:37 GMT
>>>> Etag "7785ba-7d5-43e4bd0f48e00"
>>>> Last-modified Wed, 07 Nov 2007 00:27:36 GMT Server Apache/2.0.52 (Red
>>>> Hat)
>>>> Handler opt off expandfetchSourceFetcher.XMLHandler
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Something funny about the XML:  Line 2: doctype broken.  Shoud not be a
>>>> doctype.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> <?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>
>>>> <!DOCTYPE rdf:RDF [
>>>>        <!ENTITY rdf 'http://www.w3.org/1999/02/22-rdf-syntax-ns#'>
>>>>        <!ENTITY rdfs 'http://www.w3.org/2000/01/rdf-schema#'>
>>>>        <!ENTITY owl 'http://www.w3.org/2002/07/owl#'>
>>>>        <!ENTITY akt 'http://www.aktors.org/ontology/portal#'>
>>>>        <!ENTITY akts 'http://www.aktors.org/ontology/support#'>
>>>>        <!ENTITY extn 'http://www.aktors.org/ontology/extension#'>
>>>>        <!ENTITY wiki 'http://resist.ecs.soton.ac.uk/wiki/'>
>>>>        <!ENTITY resist
>>>> 'http://resist.ecs.soton.ac.uk/ontologies/resist#'>
>>>>        <!ENTITY resex
>>>> 'http://resist.ecs.soton.ac.uk/ontologies/resilience-mechanisms#'>
>>>>        <!ENTITY courseware
>>>> 'http://www.resist-noe.org/ontology/courseware#'>
>>>>        <!ENTITY dc 'http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/'>
>>>>        <!ENTITY dct 'http://purl.org/dc/terms/'>
>>>> ]>
>>>> <rdf:RDF
>>>>        xmlns:rdf="&rdf;"
>>>>        xmlns:rdfs="&rdfs;"
>>>>        xmlns:owl="&owl;"
>>>>        xmlns:akt="&akt;"
>>>>        xmlns:akts="&akts;"
>>>>        xmlns:extn="&extn;"
>>>>        xmlns:wiki="&wiki;"
>>>>        xmlns:resist="&resist;"
>>>>        xmlns:resex="&resex;"
>>>>        xmlns:courseware="&courseware;"
>>>>        xmlns:dc="&dc;"
>>>>        xmlns:dct="&dct;"
>>>>        >
>>>>        <owl:Ontology rdf:about="">
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> [....]
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>> -- 
>>
>> Ivan Herman, W3C Semantic Web Activity Lead
>> Home: http://www.w3.org/People/Ivan/
>> PGP Key: http://www.ivan-herman.net/pgpkey.html
>> FOAF: http://www.ivan-herman.net/foaf.rdf
>>
>>
>>
> 
> ----------------------------------
> n - max wilson
> e - mlw05r@ecs.soton.ac.uk <mailto:mlw05r@ecs.soton.ac.uk>
> w - www.ecs.soton.ac.uk/~mlw05r <http://www.ecs.soton.ac.uk/~mlw05r>
> t - +44 (0) 2380 598367
> ----------------------------------
>

Received on Saturday, 10 November 2007 13:57:13 UTC