- From: Krzysztof Janowicz <jano@geog.ucsb.edu>
- Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2016 14:03:59 -0800
- To: Rob Atkinson <rob@metalinkage.com.au>
- Cc: Kerry Taylor <kerry.taylor@anu.edu.au>, "Simon.Cox@csiro.au" <Simon.Cox@csiro.au>, "antoine.zimmermann@emse.fr" <antoine.zimmermann@emse.fr>, Armin Haller <armin.haller@anu.edu.au>, "jlieberman@tumblingwalls.com" <jlieberman@tumblingwalls.com>, "public-sdw-wg@w3.org" <public-sdw-wg@w3.org>
- Message-ID: <CAJ6uipKb1hfqAk=+0xAcMMQd0TxeKkKLVQpiX9TRotgcGQNFxQ@mail.gmail.com>
Hi Rob, We just voted for using both owl:class and rdfs:class (and for using owl:inverseOf). Best, Krzysztof On Tue, Nov 15, 2016 at 1:11 PM, Rob Atkinson <rob@metalinkage.com.au> wrote: > > I though perhaps we had put this to bed (or sleep) - but there does seem > to be a nuance here - the difference between reasoning within SOSA, and the > use of SOSA within a domain where some form of reasoning is expected. > > I would have thought that the rationale for _including_ RDFS (irrespective > of whether we model in OWL) would be to allow a user community to define > specialised classes of sensors, actuators etc and user RDFS class based > reasoning. I think all they need is for the rdfs:Class and rdf:Property etc > typing to be explicit, and this is a low burden. I think the OMG there's > OWL (OTO) factor can be addressed by including appropriate comments in the > metadata for the ontology itself. > > Leaving us free to have owl based semantics embedded (effectively as > documentation for many users) and an extra OWL module that imports these > where we say to people - if you want to reason with OWL use all this extra > stuff. The OWL can be part of the normative specification, but not > necessary to refer to the SOSA concepts. > > Rob > > > > > On Wed, 16 Nov 2016 at 07:14 Krzysztof Janowicz <jano@geog.ucsb.edu> > wrote: > >> I see your point, but 'expectations' are best handled by providing clear >> documentation and examples, not by some kind of 'preemptive obedience' >> (assuming this is a good translation for the German 'Vorauseilender >> Gehorsam'). >> >> Best, >> Krzysztof >> >> On Sat, Nov 12, 2016 at 9:46 PM, Kerry Taylor <kerry.taylor@anu.edu.au> >> wrote: >> >> Krzysztof, >> >> We are all trying to build a core that will be used, and specifically in >> the context of recognising that SSN is too complicated for some people. So >> we need SOSA to be *not* too complicated. >> >> This is the single most important goal of our charter wrt to SSN ( ok, >> second only to developing SSN to formal recommendation). >> >> >> >> Quoting: The WG will work with the members of the former Semantic Sensor >> Network Incubator Group <http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/ssn/> to >> develop its ontology <http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/ssn/ssnx/ssn> >> into a formal Recommendation, noting the work to split the ontology into >> smaller sections >> <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ssn-cg/2012Jun/0000.html> to >> offer simplified access. >> >> >> >> Whether something in particular, e.g. Actuation, is covered or not is >> well down the priority list. >> >> >> >> We all know that owl:xxx constructs of any kind do not cause problems for >> RDFS reasoners computing RDFS entailment. I think I’ll scream next time >> somebody repeats that. But they do create (a) expectations of some >> semantics being implemented somewhere and (b) expectations of various tools >> doing things or not, and (c) expectations of casual ontology readers and >> users that they know what those things mean. >> >> >> >> All these aspects very significantly affect “simplified access”. >> Owl:class is probably the very least important such owl term, but it does >> provide a convenient test point for owl terms in general. >> >> >> >> --Kerry >> >> >> >> >> >> *From:* Krzysztof Janowicz [mailto:janowicz@ucsb.edu] >> *Sent:* Sunday, 13 November 2016 2:33 AM >> *To:* Rob Atkinson <rob@metalinkage.com.au>; Kerry Taylor < >> kerry.taylor@anu.edu.au>; Simon.Cox@csiro.au; antoine.zimmermann@emse.fr; >> Armin Haller <armin.haller@anu.edu.au>; jano@geog.ucsb.edu; >> jlieberman@tumblingwalls.com >> *Cc:* public-sdw-wg@w3.org >> *Subject:* Re: rdfs:class versus owl:class in SOSA-Core & JSON >> >> >> >> IMHO its still a significant choice as to whether we include RDFS than >> can be inferred from OWL or ask users to perform OWL reasoning if they want >> to understand it as RDFS classes. >> >> >> Agreed. But Antoine already confirmed what we said before. Using >> owl:class will not cause any problems for RDFS reasoners. If we want to be >> extra sure we will declare owl:class and rdfs:class at the same time. >> >> The same is true for inverse properties, they do not cause any harm from >> an RDFS-only perspective. This leaves us the domainincludes and >> rangeincludes properties that we already know will not cause harm and this >> is basically it. At least for what we have modeled so far. >> >> >> +1 to putting this to bed and working on the content >> >> >> Fantastic! I think (and hope) that we are all more or less on the same >> page as far as contents are concerned as those have been online since the >> spring. Our next steps should be to polish what we have, clarify the >> outstanding issues that remain, and then make sure we can get those >> implementations that we will need for the rectrack. >> >> Looking forward to the next steps. >> Krzysztof >> >> >> >> On 11/11/2016 11:33 PM, Rob Atkinson wrote: >> >> +1 to putting this to bed and working on the content - but until we are >> all on the same page it is proving a distraction - hence my attempt to lay >> out the options so i at least understand the differeng points of view and >> assumptions I am detecting. >> >> >> >> IMHO its still a significant choice as to whether we include RDFS than >> can be inferred from OWL or ask users to perform OWL reasoning if they want >> to understand it as RDFS classes. Because we get sidetracked by whether we >> are going to allow or disallow stuff we keep failing to reach a consensus >> on this very simple matter. Yes its only packaging for some of us, but if >> you are not operating in an OWL tools environment I think you will face an >> unnecessary barrier. >> >> >> >> Whether to put owl semantics in a separate module which imports the base >> is another matter - this shouldnt affect OWL tools. We can also use >> content-negotiation so if you ask for OWL you get the OWL package, but if >> you ask for RDF you get the core, with some sort of link (rdfs:seeAlso?) to >> the OWL. I'm agnostic about this, but suspect if we want to have different >> flavours of OWL (RL, DL etc) we'll need to analyse the requirement some >> more. >> >> >> >> Rob >> >> >> >> >> >> On Sat, 12 Nov 2016 at 16:34 Krzysztof Janowicz <janowicz@ucsb.edu> >> wrote: >> >> Hi, >> >> I am not sure what this all means, but I have to say that I wonder why we >> are turning something that is really simple into an unbelievable >> complicated issue. >> >> Why, for instance, would we want to restrict SOSA-Core to barely using >> RDFS? We already have many, many people that voiced their support for >> explicitly declaring inverse relations? >> >> We should be talking about whether we agree on the concepts and their >> interpretations in SOSA-core. >> >> Best, >> Krzysztof >> >> >> >> >> On 11/11/2016 09:20 PM, Kerry Taylor wrote: >> >> I think Rob’s (2) below is the only thing that makes any sense, >> especially in the context of the decision at the F2f in Lisbon two have >> exactly 2 modules – core and ssn-minus-dul. (with the dul alignment also >> available, but not part of it). >> >> >> >> I rather like Rob’s(1) but it is much too late to get there from here. I >> can live with Rob’s(3). >> >> >> >> >> >> But I am not sure I understand this: >> >> >> >> Ø Note also that if we publish two modules: sosa.OWL-DL and sosa.RDFS, >> and the RDFS is generated from the OWL, then the fact that RDFS does not >> have an import makes option that nearly equivalent to option #2 (the OWL >> does not need to import the RDFS, although it could do so) >> >> >> >> Issue-72 >> >> >> >> *From:* Krzysztof Janowicz [mailto:janowicz@ucsb.edu <janowicz@ucsb.edu>] >> >> *Sent:* Thursday, 10 November 2016 3:34 PM >> *To:* Rob Atkinson <rob@metalinkage.com.au> <rob@metalinkage.com.au>; >> Kerry Taylor <kerry.taylor@anu.edu.au> <kerry.taylor@anu.edu.au>; >> Simon.Cox@csiro.au; antoine.zimmermann@emse.fr; Armin Haller >> <armin.haller@anu.edu.au> <armin.haller@anu.edu.au>; jano@geog.ucsb.edu; >> jlieberman@tumblingwalls.com >> *Cc:* public-sdw-wg@w3.org >> *Subject:* Re: rdfs:class versus owl:class in SOSA-Core >> >> >> >> Hi Rob, >> >> I think this goes back to the issue I raised here: >> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-sdw-wg/2016Nov/0065.html . >> Lets discuss our modeling choices first and then decide about >> representational choices. The solution we have now is just fine and so far >> nobody was able to bring up any other argument that would point to any >> problem (assuming we add both owl:class and rdfs:class as extra level of >> safety). >> >> SOSA -core is supposed to be a conceptually simple, not based on a >> 'simple' representation language. >> >> Best, >> Krzysztof >> >> >> >> On 11/09/2016 08:03 PM, Rob Atkinson wrote: >> >> >> >> my opinion is that I'm happy to have owl constructs as long as the rdfs >> that would be entailed by OWL reasoning, but not RDFS reasoning, is >> materialised, and hence the user is not expected to use an OWL reasoner. >> There seems to be a consensus (or at least no counter-arguments to this >> specific policy ACAICT) >> >> >> >> I am therefore agnostic as whether all OWL is in a extension model which >> supports OWL-DL (?) reasoning - and is part of the normative semantics. I >> guess the question is whether there is a need for a subset of OWL semantics >> which imposes a low burden an OWL reasoner (a simple core). Others with >> more experience need to weigh in and document the subset and we can then >> vote if we are happy to include it in the core. >> >> >> >> Kerry has made the useful point that expectations are raised when a user >> finds OWL constructs. Perhaps that can be managed by clear enough >> documentation that all RDFS semantics implied by such OWL is materialised. >> >> >> >> There is a possible lower level of commitment - in that in the core terms >> are just defined using SKOS, without any form of class model - but I think >> we all feel that the world is used to simple RDFS models and we could use >> that as a moderately expressive baseline. >> >> >> >> So I see the choice is between: >> >> 1) something like SKOS Concepts to "reserve" resource names and attach >> documentation >> >> 2) RDFS only + OWL module that imports it >> >> 3) RDFS inc. "cheap to process OWL" + OWL-DL module that imports it >> >> 4) OWL-DL only >> >> 5) OWL-DL with entailed RDFS >> >> 6) something I've missed :-) >> >> >> >> Note also that if we publish two modules: >> >> sosa.OWL-DL and sosa.RDFS, and the RDFS is generated from the OWL, >> then the fact that RDFS does not have an import makes option that nearly >> equivalent to option #2 (the OWL does not need to import the RDFS, although >> it could do so) >> >> >> >> I propose we get this list of options nailed down so we can identify >> which flavour we are talking about in future, and then if we cant get a >> consensus quickly document pros and cons, and specifically anything we >> might break for users. (As an example I personally think #4) (OWL-DL only) >> breaks it for RDFS-only based reasoning) >> >> >> >> Rob Atkinson >> >> >> >> On Thu, 10 Nov 2016 at 12:55 Kerry Taylor <kerry.taylor@anu.edu.au> >> wrote: >> >> And therein lies another dragon -- or an elephant? >> >> In ssn a ssn:MeasurementCapability is not defined with domain/range. >> Instead it is defined via a local allvaluesfrom restriction on Sensor. So >> certainly this following holds: >> >> > ?x :hasMeasurementCapability ?y . >> > I cannot conclude that ?y is a :MeasurementCapability >> >> One of the many promises of the "simple" core is that it is simpler than >> full ssn in the sense that it makes weaker ontological commitments (see >> the notion of "vertical modularisation" in the FPWD). >> >> So this automatically forbids rdfs:domain and rdfs:range in this case and >> similarly most others. Or otherwise it forbids one of many other broadly >> agreed goals. >> >> >> Having said that, which remains true in general, >> hasMeasurementCapability in particular is not currently proposed to exist >> at all in sosa-core https://github.com/w3c/sdw/ >> blob/gh-pages/ssn/rdf/sosa.ttl. So there may be no issue there. >> >> However the same principle should indeed apply to observedProperty, for >> example, which does occur in the core. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Simon.Cox@csiro.au [mailto:Simon.Cox@csiro.au] >> Sent: Thursday, 10 November 2016 12:19 PM >> To: antoine.zimmermann@emse.fr; janowicz@ucsb.edu; Armin Haller < >> armin.haller@anu.edu.au>; jano@geog.ucsb.edu; >> jlieberman@tumblingwalls.com; Kerry Taylor <kerry.taylor@anu.edu.au> >> Cc: public-sdw-wg@w3.org >> Subject: RE: rdfs:class versus owl:class in SOSA-Core >> >> > something really wrong in the name of the property! Or, alternatively >> there ought to be a rdfs:range axiom. >> >> An owl:ObjectProperty without a rdfs:range axiom is usually be missing >> the most significant part of the semantics. I generally add these as a >> matter of course (not so for rdfs:domain). As Jano pointed out, semantics >> shouldn't depend on labels. >> >> Simon >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Antoine Zimmermann [mailto:antoine.zimmermann@emse.fr] >> Sent: Thursday, 10 November 2016 10:06 AM >> To: janowicz@ucsb.edu; Armin Haller <armin.haller@anu.edu.au>; Krzysztof >> Janowicz <jano@geog.ucsb.edu>; Joshua Lieberman < >> jlieberman@tumblingwalls.com>; Cox, Simon (L&W, Clayton) >> <Simon.Cox@csiro.au> <Simon.Cox@csiro.au>; Kerry Taylor < >> kerry.taylor@anu.edu.au> >> Cc: SDW WG Public List <public-sdw-wg@w3.org> >> Subject: Re: rdfs:class versus owl:class in SOSA-Core >> >> On 09/11/2016 23:46, Krzysztof Janowicz wrote: >> >> >> >> [...] >> >> >> -rdfs:domain and rdfs:range >> >> >> >> Please use these whenever relevant. [...]. You can't go wrong with >> them. >> > >> > This is the only part of your email where I would strongly disagree >> > (well, depending on what you mean by 'whenever relevant' :-)) for the >> > reasons we discussed here before and that others made when developing >> > other ontologies. This is not to say that using them is 'wrong' in >> > some sense but that they have to be handled with great care. >> >> On this, I know what you mean. I've read the arguments that were written >> at some point in the SSN draft. I know that it is wise to avoid systematic >> domains and ranges that could be too restrictive. >> >> But I think that this went too far with things like: >> >> :hasMeasurementCapability a owl:ObjectProperty . >> :MeasurementCapability a owl:Class . >> >> and no range for :hasMeasurementCapability. If, whenever I find: >> >> ?x :hasMeasurementCapability ?y . >> >> I cannot conclude that ?y is a :MeasurementCapability, then there is >> something really wrong in the name of the property! Or, alternatively >> there ought to be a rdfs:range axiom. >> >> >> --AZ >> >> >> >> > >> > Best, >> > Krzysztof >> > >> > >> > >> > On 11/09/2016 01:15 PM, Antoine Zimmermann wrote: >> >> On 09/11/2016 00:20, Armin Haller wrote: >> >>> Hi Krzysztof, >> >>> >> >>> Thanks for your detailed explanations below! >> >>> >> >>> Just to clarify, the intention in the meeting to go through a list >> >>> of what constructs should be in SOSA (as thankfully proposed by >> >>> Josh) was to be incremental. I was planning to incrementally go >> >>> through the list of constructs that are either already in our >> >>> current SOSA proposal or could be imagined to be in it and vote on >> >>> them. Some, of course have implications, if we decide on >> >>> owl:inverseOf in our next meeting, we will not be in RDFS entailment. >> >> >> >> I was not at the meeting, so I may have missed something, but what is >> >> the rationale for forbidding certain constructs? If there is an >> >> owl:inverseOf in the ontology, the RDFS reasoners won't care. Nobody >> >> who's not using/interested in owl:inverseOf will care. >> >> >> >> However, in the case of owl:inverseOf, I don't think it is a question >> >> of whether we want to use the construct or not. It is a question of >> >> deciding whether we allow ourselves to define both a property and its >> >> inverse. If we have properties like ex:hasChild and ex:hasParent, it >> >> would be silly not to make explicit the inverse relationship. If the >> >> decision is about not having both a property and its inverse, then >> >> the need to use or not owl:inverseOf is only an inevitable >> >> consequence of the other decision. >> >> >> >> >> >>> If we are already in OWL, then of course it would make sense to use >> >>> owl:Class, although we do not have to. Therefore, again a vote on >> >>> owl:Class thereafter. >> >> >> >> I don't see a reason not to. Not having owl:Class declaration has >> >> noticeable consequences. For instance, it always troubles me that >> >> Protégé cannot display the Dublin Core properties and classes. It >> >> also troubles me that the DC terms cannot be imported with standard >> >> owl:imports, because of the lack of owl class, owl properties >> >> declarations. >> >> >> >> >> >>> I can think of the following list to vote on in our next meeting, >> >>> incrementally. And we stopped at owl:inverseOf this meeting I just >> >>> saw in the minutes. >> >>> >> >>> -rdfs:class >> >> >> >> see above and related emails. >> >>> >> >>> -owl:inverseOf >> >> >> >> see above. >> >>> >> >>> -owl:AnnotationProperty >> >>> >> >>> - owl:ObjectProperty >> >> >> >> owl:AnnotationProperty, owl:ObjectProperty and owl:DatatypeProperty, >> >> like owl:Class, do not add expressiveness to the language. However, >> >> they help OWL tools figuring out what the terms are. >> >> >> >> FWIW, in OWL 2 RDF-based semantics, owl:ObjectProperty is equivalent >> >> to rdf:Property. owl:AnnotationProperty and owl:DatatypeProperty are >> >> both subClassOf rdf:Property. >> >> >> >>> >> >>> -owl:Class >> >> >> >> see above. >> >> >> >>> >> >>> -rdfs:domain and rdfs:range >> >> >> >> Please use these whenever relevant. When used with an atomic class, >> >> they are fully supported by RDFS, OWL 2 EL, OWL 2 QL, OWL 2 RL, OWL 2 >> >> DL, OWL 2 Full, ter Horst semantics, RDFS++. You can't go wrong with >> >> them. >> >> >> >>> >> >>> -rdfs:subClassOf >> >> >> >> Come on! Do we need to vote on this one? >> >> >> >>> >> >>> - owl:Restriction >> >> >> >> There are many forms of restrictions, each one should be considered >> >> individually. I don't see much reason to forbid ourselves to use any >> >> of them because anyone can just ignore those they don't like. >> >> However, they should be used sensibly because we should not prevent >> >> use cases that we have not foreseen. I'd prefer an ontology that has >> >> very little restrictions with precise documentation to prevent >> >> misusing the terms, rather than an overly restrictive one. Look at >> >> schema.org: painfully non-restrictive, delightfully useful. >> >> >> >> >> >> --AZ >> >> >> >>> >> >>> Please do think about these and if you think they should or should >> >>> not be in the core or if there is anything else we desperately would >> need. >> >>> >> >>> Kind regards, >> >>> Armin >> >>> >> >>> *From: *Krzysztof Janowicz <jano@geog.ucsb.edu> >> >>> *Date: *Wednesday, 9 November 2016 at 10:01 am >> >>> *To: *Joshua Lieberman <jlieberman@tumblingwalls.com>, Simon Cox >> >>> <Simon.Cox@csiro.au> <Simon.Cox@csiro.au>, Kerry Taylor < >> kerry.taylor@anu.edu.au>, Armin >> >>> Haller <armin.haller@anu.edu.au> >> >>> *Cc: *SDW WG Public List <public-sdw-wg@w3.org> >> >>> *Subject: *rdfs:class versus owl:class in SOSA-Core >> >>> >> >>> Hi, >> >>> >> >>> Sorry for being so picky about this during our meeting but I do not >> >>> want us to take decisions that have consequences that we can not yet >> foresee. >> >>> >> >>> To the best of my knowledge (and please correct me if I am wrong): >> >>> >> >>> Under the semantics of OWL1, rdfs:class and owl:class are only >> >>> equivalent for OWL-Full. For OWL-DL (and OWL-Lite) owl:class is a >> >>> subclass of rdfs:class. >> >>> >> >>> This means that every valid document in OWL will be a valid document >> >>> in RDFS, however *not* every rdfs:class is an owl:class. I do not >> >>> want us to end up in OWL-Full because of this. >> >>> >> >>> For OWL2, I found this: 'owl:Class rdfs:subClassOf rdfs:Class . " >> >>> (https://www.w3.org/TR/owl2-rdf-based-semantics/). Things may be >> >>> more complicated here due to OWL2 punning and they may well turn out >> >>> to be equivalent, I will check this later. >> >>> >> >>> If we decide to restrict ourself to only using RDFS for SOSA-core, >> >>> and I am not in favor of this, then we may have to go with rdfs:class. >> >>> However, we have not yet taken this decision and have also not >> >>> discussed which axioms and language to use for SSN. As Sosa-core and >> >>> SSN will be aligned, this may have more consequences that we should >> >>> consider. It also seems like many of us are in favor of using >> >>> inverseOf, so we would be using OWL (and its formal semantics) >> >>> anyway. Note that this does not do any harm to an RDFS-only >> >>> tool/user as for those the inverseOf axiom will simply have no >> >>> formal semantics. Still all other triples that use both relations >> will still be just fine. >> >>> >> >>> Given the subclasssing, I do not see any problems using owl:class, >> >>> but we may accidentally end up in OWL-full or with being >> >>> incompatible to the standards if we opt for rdfs:class. Again, I am >> happy to be corrected. >> >>> At least, I do not see harm in simply using owl:class. >> >>> >> >>> Finally, and from very pragmatic point of view: ontologies that are >> >>> under very heavy use such as the DBpedia ontology simply use >> >>> owl:class and I have not yet seen any issues or complaints about >> that. See, for >> >>> example, http://dbpedia.org/ontology/City "dbo:City rdf:type >> >>> owl:Class ." The same is true for the goodrelations ontology and so >> >>> forth (but I admit that this is due to the more complex >> >>> axiomatization they use). >> >>> >> >>> I hope this will start a productive discussion. >> >>> >> >>> Thanks for reading, >> >>> >> >>> Krzysztof >> >>> >> >> >> > >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Krzysztof Janowicz >> >> >> >> Geography Department, University of California, Santa Barbara >> >> 4830 Ellison Hall, Santa Barbara, CA 93106-4060 >> >> >> >> Email: jano@geog.ucsb.edu >> >> Webpage: http://geog.ucsb.edu/~jano/ >> >> Semantic Web Journal: http://www.semantic-web-journal.net >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Krzysztof Janowicz >> >> >> >> Geography Department, University of California, Santa Barbara >> >> 4830 Ellison Hall, Santa Barbara, CA 93106-4060 >> >> >> >> Email: jano@geog.ucsb.edu >> >> Webpage: http://geog.ucsb.edu/~jano/ >> >> Semantic Web Journal: http://www.semantic-web-journal.net >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Krzysztof Janowicz >> >> >> >> Geography Department, University of California, Santa Barbara >> >> 4830 Ellison Hall, Santa Barbara, CA 93106-4060 >> >> >> >> Email: jano@geog.ucsb.edu >> >> Webpage: http://geog.ucsb.edu/~jano/ >> >> Semantic Web Journal: http://www.semantic-web-journal.net >> >> >>
Received on Tuesday, 15 November 2016 22:05:15 UTC