- From: Rob Atkinson <rob@metalinkage.com.au>
- Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2016 00:23:18 +0000
- To: Kerry Taylor <kerry.taylor@anu.edu.au>, "Le Phuoc, Danh" <danh.lephuoc@tu-berlin.de>, "public-sdw-wg@w3.org" <public-sdw-wg@w3.org>
- Message-ID: <CACfF9LzV3V-+UBGi0G=4KbYFUHcKfG9sh8TLZWHrsRPp4Cc0Lg@mail.gmail.com>
Not sure "as JSON-LD only" makes much sense to me - JSON-LD is more appropriate for instance document using SOSA-core than conveying the definitions. And its not dependent on the definitions themselves published in JSON. Maybe I'm missing something here, Rob On Mon, 14 Nov 2016 at 09:31 Kerry Taylor <kerry.taylor@anu.edu.au> wrote: > Danh, > > > > I have not performed the analysis that you have, but I want to say that I > would be very happy if indeed there was no need or reason for RDFS > reasoning on sosa-core. Recall Josh’s remark about how people might use > sosa-core (having nothing at all to do with rdfs). > > > > So, to answer your question > > Ø Are there any useful features/benefits on enabling RDF reasoners for > the data annotated with the SSN/SOSA core ontology?”. > > > > I would like very much to say NO! And I would like to design sosa-core > accordingly, but it may be too surprising to hide the rdf/rdfs entirely. > > > > A strong vote from me would be to publish the core as JSON-LD only. And > to only say things as they are said in JSON-LD and not to attempt to say > anything else. And if this also means we are saying nothing stronger than > schema.org does then that would be good too. Can we find sufficient > JSON-LD expertise in the group to confidently do this? > > > > --Kerry > > > > > > *From:* Le Phuoc, Danh [mailto:danh.lephuoc@tu-berlin.de] > *Sent:* Monday, 14 November 2016 12:44 AM > *To:* Kerry Taylor <kerry.taylor@anu.edu.au>; janowicz@ucsb.edu; Rob > Atkinson <rob@metalinkage.com.au>; Simon.Cox@csiro.au; > antoine.zimmermann@emse.fr; Armin Haller <armin.haller@anu.edu.au>; > jano@geog.ucsb.edu; jlieberman@tumblingwalls.com > > > *Cc:* public-sdw-wg@w3.org > *Subject:* Re: rdfs:class versus owl:class in SOSA-Core & JSON > > > > Hi Kerry and Krzysztof and all, > > > > I would like to divert the discussion on “trying to support RDF reasoners > or only consider RDFS reasoning” in the SSN-core/SOSA(-core) to the > question “Are there any useful features/benefits on enabling RDF reasoners > for the data annotated with the SSN/SOSA core ontology?”. > > > > Corresponding to the RDFS interpretation rules of RDF1.1 semantics [1], I > can find only *one single statement. i.e.* “sosa-core:resultTime > rdfs:range xsd:dateTime” in current version of SOSA-core[2] that can > trigger the RDFS reasoning. In practice, RDFS reasoner can only infers more > interesting data if the common RDFS axioms with rdfs:range, rdfs:domain, > rdfs:subClassOf, rdfs:subPropertyOf are combined in the ontology. > > > > So, I would say we would get nothing or very little useful RDFS-entailed > data from sensor/observation data annotated with it. That means RDFS > reasoning is out of the picture when using only current version of SSN/SOSA > core[1]. Please correct me if I’m wrong here. > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > Danh > > > > [1] https://www.w3.org/TR/rdf11-mt/#rdfs-interpretations > > [2] https://github.com/w3c/sdw/blob/gh-pages/ssn/rdf/sosa.ttl > > > > > > *From: *Kerry Taylor <kerry.taylor@anu.edu.au> > *Date: *Sunday 13 November 2016 at 06:46 > *To: *"janowicz@ucsb.edu" <janowicz@ucsb.edu>, Rob Atkinson < > rob@metalinkage.com.au>, "Simon.Cox@csiro.au" <Simon.Cox@csiro.au>, " > antoine.zimmermann@emse.fr" <antoine.zimmermann@emse.fr>, Armin Haller < > armin.haller@anu.edu.au>, "jano@geog.ucsb.edu" <jano@geog.ucsb.edu>, " > jlieberman@tumblingwalls.com" <jlieberman@tumblingwalls.com> > *Cc: *"public-sdw-wg@w3.org" <public-sdw-wg@w3.org> > *Subject: *RE: rdfs:class versus owl:class in SOSA-Core & JSON > *Resent-From: *<public-sdw-wg@w3.org> > *Resent-Date: *Sunday 13 November 2016 at 06:47 > > > > Krzysztof, > > We are all trying to build a core that will be used, and specifically in > the context of recognising that SSN is too complicated for some people. So > we need SOSA to be *not* too complicated. > > This is the single most important goal of our charter wrt to SSN ( ok, > second only to developing SSN to formal recommendation). > > > > Quoting: The WG will work with the members of the former Semantic Sensor > Network Incubator Group <http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/ssn/> to > develop its ontology <http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/ssn/ssnx/ssn> into > a formal Recommendation, noting the work to split the ontology into > smaller sections > <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ssn-cg/2012Jun/0000.html> to > offer simplified access. > > > > Whether something in particular, e.g. Actuation, is covered or not is well > down the priority list. > > > > We all know that owl:xxx constructs of any kind do not cause problems for > RDFS reasoners computing RDFS entailment. I think I’ll scream next time > somebody repeats that. But they do create (a) expectations of some > semantics being implemented somewhere and (b) expectations of various tools > doing things or not, and (c) expectations of casual ontology readers and > users that they know what those things mean. > > > > All these aspects very significantly affect “simplified access”. Owl:class > is probably the very least important such owl term, but it does provide a > convenient test point for owl terms in general. > > > > --Kerry > > > > > > *From:* Krzysztof Janowicz [mailto:janowicz@ucsb.edu <janowicz@ucsb.edu>] > *Sent:* Sunday, 13 November 2016 2:33 AM > *To:* Rob Atkinson <rob@metalinkage.com.au>; Kerry Taylor < > kerry.taylor@anu.edu.au>; Simon.Cox@csiro.au; antoine.zimmermann@emse.fr; > Armin Haller <armin.haller@anu.edu.au>; jano@geog.ucsb.edu; > jlieberman@tumblingwalls.com > *Cc:* public-sdw-wg@w3.org > *Subject:* Re: rdfs:class versus owl:class in SOSA-Core & JSON > > > > IMHO its still a significant choice as to whether we include RDFS than can > be inferred from OWL or ask users to perform OWL reasoning if they want to > understand it as RDFS classes. > > > Agreed. But Antoine already confirmed what we said before. Using owl:class > will not cause any problems for RDFS reasoners. If we want to be extra sure > we will declare owl:class and rdfs:class at the same time. > > The same is true for inverse properties, they do not cause any harm from > an RDFS-only perspective. This leaves us the domainincludes and > rangeincludes properties that we already know will not cause harm and this > is basically it. At least for what we have modeled so far. > > > +1 to putting this to bed and working on the content > > > Fantastic! I think (and hope) that we are all more or less on the same > page as far as contents are concerned as those have been online since the > spring. Our next steps should be to polish what we have, clarify the > outstanding issues that remain, and then make sure we can get those > implementations that we will need for the rectrack. > > Looking forward to the next steps. > Krzysztof > > > > On 11/11/2016 11:33 PM, Rob Atkinson wrote: > > +1 to putting this to bed and working on the content - but until we are > all on the same page it is proving a distraction - hence my attempt to lay > out the options so i at least understand the differeng points of view and > assumptions I am detecting. > > > > IMHO its still a significant choice as to whether we include RDFS than can > be inferred from OWL or ask users to perform OWL reasoning if they want to > understand it as RDFS classes. Because we get sidetracked by whether we > are going to allow or disallow stuff we keep failing to reach a consensus > on this very simple matter. Yes its only packaging for some of us, but if > you are not operating in an OWL tools environment I think you will face an > unnecessary barrier. > > > > Whether to put owl semantics in a separate module which imports the base > is another matter - this shouldnt affect OWL tools. We can also use > content-negotiation so if you ask for OWL you get the OWL package, but if > you ask for RDF you get the core, with some sort of link (rdfs:seeAlso?) to > the OWL. I'm agnostic about this, but suspect if we want to have different > flavours of OWL (RL, DL etc) we'll need to analyse the requirement some > more. > > > > Rob > > > > > > On Sat, 12 Nov 2016 at 16:34 Krzysztof Janowicz <janowicz@ucsb.edu> wrote: > > Hi, > > I am not sure what this all means, but I have to say that I wonder why we > are turning something that is really simple into an unbelievable > complicated issue. > > Why, for instance, would we want to restrict SOSA-Core to barely using > RDFS? We already have many, many people that voiced their support for > explicitly declaring inverse relations? > > We should be talking about whether we agree on the concepts and their > interpretations in SOSA-core. > > Best, > Krzysztof > > > > > On 11/11/2016 09:20 PM, Kerry Taylor wrote: > > I think Rob’s (2) below is the only thing that makes any sense, especially > in the context of the decision at the F2f in Lisbon two have exactly 2 > modules – core and ssn-minus-dul. (with the dul alignment also available, > but not part of it). > > > > I rather like Rob’s(1) but it is much too late to get there from here. I > can live with Rob’s(3). > > > > > > But I am not sure I understand this: > > > > Ø Note also that if we publish two modules: sosa.OWL-DL and sosa.RDFS, > and the RDFS is generated from the OWL, then the fact that RDFS does not > have an import makes option that nearly equivalent to option #2 (the OWL > does not need to import the RDFS, although it could do so) > > > > Issue-72 > > > > *From:* Krzysztof Janowicz [mailto:janowicz@ucsb.edu <janowicz@ucsb.edu>] > *Sent:* Thursday, 10 November 2016 3:34 PM > *To:* Rob Atkinson <rob@metalinkage.com.au> <rob@metalinkage.com.au>; > Kerry Taylor <kerry.taylor@anu.edu.au> <kerry.taylor@anu.edu.au>; > Simon.Cox@csiro.au; antoine.zimmermann@emse.fr; Armin Haller > <armin.haller@anu.edu.au> <armin.haller@anu.edu.au>; jano@geog.ucsb.edu; > jlieberman@tumblingwalls.com > *Cc:* public-sdw-wg@w3.org > *Subject:* Re: rdfs:class versus owl:class in SOSA-Core > > > > Hi Rob, > > I think this goes back to the issue I raised here: > https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-sdw-wg/2016Nov/0065.html . > Lets discuss our modeling choices first and then decide about > representational choices. The solution we have now is just fine and so far > nobody was able to bring up any other argument that would point to any > problem (assuming we add both owl:class and rdfs:class as extra level of > safety). > > SOSA -core is supposed to be a conceptually simple, not based on a > 'simple' representation language. > > Best, > Krzysztof > > > > On 11/09/2016 08:03 PM, Rob Atkinson wrote: > > > > my opinion is that I'm happy to have owl constructs as long as the rdfs > that would be entailed by OWL reasoning, but not RDFS reasoning, is > materialised, and hence the user is not expected to use an OWL reasoner. > There seems to be a consensus (or at least no counter-arguments to this > specific policy ACAICT) > > > > I am therefore agnostic as whether all OWL is in a extension model which > supports OWL-DL (?) reasoning - and is part of the normative semantics. I > guess the question is whether there is a need for a subset of OWL semantics > which imposes a low burden an OWL reasoner (a simple core). Others with > more experience need to weigh in and document the subset and we can then > vote if we are happy to include it in the core. > > > > Kerry has made the useful point that expectations are raised when a user > finds OWL constructs. Perhaps that can be managed by clear enough > documentation that all RDFS semantics implied by such OWL is materialised. > > > > There is a possible lower level of commitment - in that in the core terms > are just defined using SKOS, without any form of class model - but I think > we all feel that the world is used to simple RDFS models and we could use > that as a moderately expressive baseline. > > > > So I see the choice is between: > > 1) something like SKOS Concepts to "reserve" resource names and attach > documentation > > 2) RDFS only + OWL module that imports it > > 3) RDFS inc. "cheap to process OWL" + OWL-DL module that imports it > > 4) OWL-DL only > > 5) OWL-DL with entailed RDFS > > 6) something I've missed :-) > > > > Note also that if we publish two modules: > > sosa.OWL-DL and sosa.RDFS, and the RDFS is generated from the OWL, > then the fact that RDFS does not have an import makes option that nearly > equivalent to option #2 (the OWL does not need to import the RDFS, although > it could do so) > > > > I propose we get this list of options nailed down so we can identify which > flavour we are talking about in future, and then if we cant get a consensus > quickly document pros and cons, and specifically anything we might break > for users. (As an example I personally think #4) (OWL-DL only) breaks it > for RDFS-only based reasoning) > > > > Rob Atkinson > > > > On Thu, 10 Nov 2016 at 12:55 Kerry Taylor <kerry.taylor@anu.edu.au> wrote: > > And therein lies another dragon -- or an elephant? > > In ssn a ssn:MeasurementCapability is not defined with domain/range. > Instead it is defined via a local allvaluesfrom restriction on Sensor. So > certainly this following holds: > > > ?x :hasMeasurementCapability ?y . > > I cannot conclude that ?y is a :MeasurementCapability > > One of the many promises of the "simple" core is that it is simpler than > full ssn in the sense that it makes weaker ontological commitments (see > the notion of "vertical modularisation" in the FPWD). > > So this automatically forbids rdfs:domain and rdfs:range in this case and > similarly most others. Or otherwise it forbids one of many other broadly > agreed goals. > > > Having said that, which remains true in general, hasMeasurementCapability > in particular is not currently proposed to exist at all in sosa-core > https://github.com/w3c/sdw/blob/gh-pages/ssn/rdf/sosa.ttl. So there may > be no issue there. > > However the same principle should indeed apply to observedProperty, for > example, which does occur in the core. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Simon.Cox@csiro.au [mailto:Simon.Cox@csiro.au] > Sent: Thursday, 10 November 2016 12:19 PM > To: antoine.zimmermann@emse.fr; janowicz@ucsb.edu; Armin Haller < > armin.haller@anu.edu.au>; jano@geog.ucsb.edu; jlieberman@tumblingwalls.com; > Kerry Taylor <kerry.taylor@anu.edu.au> > Cc: public-sdw-wg@w3.org > Subject: RE: rdfs:class versus owl:class in SOSA-Core > > > something really wrong in the name of the property! Or, alternatively > there ought to be a rdfs:range axiom. > > An owl:ObjectProperty without a rdfs:range axiom is usually be missing the > most significant part of the semantics. I generally add these as a matter > of course (not so for rdfs:domain). As Jano pointed out, semantics > shouldn't depend on labels. > > Simon > > -----Original Message----- > From: Antoine Zimmermann [mailto:antoine.zimmermann@emse.fr] > Sent: Thursday, 10 November 2016 10:06 AM > To: janowicz@ucsb.edu; Armin Haller <armin.haller@anu.edu.au>; Krzysztof > Janowicz <jano@geog.ucsb.edu>; Joshua Lieberman < > jlieberman@tumblingwalls.com>; Cox, Simon (L&W, Clayton) > <Simon.Cox@csiro.au> <Simon.Cox@csiro.au>; Kerry Taylor < > kerry.taylor@anu.edu.au> > Cc: SDW WG Public List <public-sdw-wg@w3.org> > Subject: Re: rdfs:class versus owl:class in SOSA-Core > > On 09/11/2016 23:46, Krzysztof Janowicz wrote: > >> > > [...] > > >> -rdfs:domain and rdfs:range > >> > >> Please use these whenever relevant. [...]. You can't go wrong with them. > > > > This is the only part of your email where I would strongly disagree > > (well, depending on what you mean by 'whenever relevant' :-)) for the > > reasons we discussed here before and that others made when developing > > other ontologies. This is not to say that using them is 'wrong' in > > some sense but that they have to be handled with great care. > > On this, I know what you mean. I've read the arguments that were written > at some point in the SSN draft. I know that it is wise to avoid systematic > domains and ranges that could be too restrictive. > > But I think that this went too far with things like: > > :hasMeasurementCapability a owl:ObjectProperty . > :MeasurementCapability a owl:Class . > > and no range for :hasMeasurementCapability. If, whenever I find: > > ?x :hasMeasurementCapability ?y . > > I cannot conclude that ?y is a :MeasurementCapability, then there is > something really wrong in the name of the property! Or, alternatively > there ought to be a rdfs:range axiom. > > > --AZ > > > > > > > Best, > > Krzysztof > > > > > > > > On 11/09/2016 01:15 PM, Antoine Zimmermann wrote: > >> On 09/11/2016 00:20, Armin Haller wrote: > >>> Hi Krzysztof, > >>> > >>> Thanks for your detailed explanations below! > >>> > >>> Just to clarify, the intention in the meeting to go through a list > >>> of what constructs should be in SOSA (as thankfully proposed by > >>> Josh) was to be incremental. I was planning to incrementally go > >>> through the list of constructs that are either already in our > >>> current SOSA proposal or could be imagined to be in it and vote on > >>> them. Some, of course have implications, if we decide on > >>> owl:inverseOf in our next meeting, we will not be in RDFS entailment. > >> > >> I was not at the meeting, so I may have missed something, but what is > >> the rationale for forbidding certain constructs? If there is an > >> owl:inverseOf in the ontology, the RDFS reasoners won't care. Nobody > >> who's not using/interested in owl:inverseOf will care. > >> > >> However, in the case of owl:inverseOf, I don't think it is a question > >> of whether we want to use the construct or not. It is a question of > >> deciding whether we allow ourselves to define both a property and its > >> inverse. If we have properties like ex:hasChild and ex:hasParent, it > >> would be silly not to make explicit the inverse relationship. If the > >> decision is about not having both a property and its inverse, then > >> the need to use or not owl:inverseOf is only an inevitable > >> consequence of the other decision. > >> > >> > >>> If we are already in OWL, then of course it would make sense to use > >>> owl:Class, although we do not have to. Therefore, again a vote on > >>> owl:Class thereafter. > >> > >> I don't see a reason not to. Not having owl:Class declaration has > >> noticeable consequences. For instance, it always troubles me that > >> Protégé cannot display the Dublin Core properties and classes. It > >> also troubles me that the DC terms cannot be imported with standard > >> owl:imports, because of the lack of owl class, owl properties > >> declarations. > >> > >> > >>> I can think of the following list to vote on in our next meeting, > >>> incrementally. And we stopped at owl:inverseOf this meeting I just > >>> saw in the minutes. > >>> > >>> -rdfs:class > >> > >> see above and related emails. > >>> > >>> -owl:inverseOf > >> > >> see above. > >>> > >>> -owl:AnnotationProperty > >>> > >>> - owl:ObjectProperty > >> > >> owl:AnnotationProperty, owl:ObjectProperty and owl:DatatypeProperty, > >> like owl:Class, do not add expressiveness to the language. However, > >> they help OWL tools figuring out what the terms are. > >> > >> FWIW, in OWL 2 RDF-based semantics, owl:ObjectProperty is equivalent > >> to rdf:Property. owl:AnnotationProperty and owl:DatatypeProperty are > >> both subClassOf rdf:Property. > >> > >>> > >>> -owl:Class > >> > >> see above. > >> > >>> > >>> -rdfs:domain and rdfs:range > >> > >> Please use these whenever relevant. When used with an atomic class, > >> they are fully supported by RDFS, OWL 2 EL, OWL 2 QL, OWL 2 RL, OWL 2 > >> DL, OWL 2 Full, ter Horst semantics, RDFS++. You can't go wrong with > >> them. > >> > >>> > >>> -rdfs:subClassOf > >> > >> Come on! Do we need to vote on this one? > >> > >>> > >>> - owl:Restriction > >> > >> There are many forms of restrictions, each one should be considered > >> individually. I don't see much reason to forbid ourselves to use any > >> of them because anyone can just ignore those they don't like. > >> However, they should be used sensibly because we should not prevent > >> use cases that we have not foreseen. I'd prefer an ontology that has > >> very little restrictions with precise documentation to prevent > >> misusing the terms, rather than an overly restrictive one. Look at > >> schema.org: painfully non-restrictive, delightfully useful. > >> > >> > >> --AZ > >> > >>> > >>> Please do think about these and if you think they should or should > >>> not be in the core or if there is anything else we desperately would > need. > >>> > >>> Kind regards, > >>> Armin > >>> > >>> *From: *Krzysztof Janowicz <jano@geog.ucsb.edu> > >>> *Date: *Wednesday, 9 November 2016 at 10:01 am > >>> *To: *Joshua Lieberman <jlieberman@tumblingwalls.com>, Simon Cox > >>> <Simon.Cox@csiro.au> <Simon.Cox@csiro.au>, Kerry Taylor < > kerry.taylor@anu.edu.au>, Armin > >>> Haller <armin.haller@anu.edu.au> > >>> *Cc: *SDW WG Public List <public-sdw-wg@w3.org> > >>> *Subject: *rdfs:class versus owl:class in SOSA-Core > >>> > >>> Hi, > >>> > >>> Sorry for being so picky about this during our meeting but I do not > >>> want us to take decisions that have consequences that we can not yet > foresee. > >>> > >>> To the best of my knowledge (and please correct me if I am wrong): > >>> > >>> Under the semantics of OWL1, rdfs:class and owl:class are only > >>> equivalent for OWL-Full. For OWL-DL (and OWL-Lite) owl:class is a > >>> subclass of rdfs:class. > >>> > >>> This means that every valid document in OWL will be a valid document > >>> in RDFS, however *not* every rdfs:class is an owl:class. I do not > >>> want us to end up in OWL-Full because of this. > >>> > >>> For OWL2, I found this: 'owl:Class rdfs:subClassOf rdfs:Class . " > >>> (https://www.w3.org/TR/owl2-rdf-based-semantics/). Things may be > >>> more complicated here due to OWL2 punning and they may well turn out > >>> to be equivalent, I will check this later. > >>> > >>> If we decide to restrict ourself to only using RDFS for SOSA-core, > >>> and I am not in favor of this, then we may have to go with rdfs:class. > >>> However, we have not yet taken this decision and have also not > >>> discussed which axioms and language to use for SSN. As Sosa-core and > >>> SSN will be aligned, this may have more consequences that we should > >>> consider. It also seems like many of us are in favor of using > >>> inverseOf, so we would be using OWL (and its formal semantics) > >>> anyway. Note that this does not do any harm to an RDFS-only > >>> tool/user as for those the inverseOf axiom will simply have no > >>> formal semantics. Still all other triples that use both relations will > still be just fine. > >>> > >>> Given the subclasssing, I do not see any problems using owl:class, > >>> but we may accidentally end up in OWL-full or with being > >>> incompatible to the standards if we opt for rdfs:class. Again, I am > happy to be corrected. > >>> At least, I do not see harm in simply using owl:class. > >>> > >>> Finally, and from very pragmatic point of view: ontologies that are > >>> under very heavy use such as the DBpedia ontology simply use > >>> owl:class and I have not yet seen any issues or complaints about that. > See, for > >>> example, http://dbpedia.org/ontology/City "dbo:City rdf:type > >>> owl:Class ." The same is true for the goodrelations ontology and so > >>> forth (but I admit that this is due to the more complex > >>> axiomatization they use). > >>> > >>> I hope this will start a productive discussion. > >>> > >>> Thanks for reading, > >>> > >>> Krzysztof > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Krzysztof Janowicz > > > > Geography Department, University of California, Santa Barbara > > 4830 Ellison Hall, Santa Barbara, CA 93106-4060 > > > > Email: jano@geog.ucsb.edu > > Webpage: http://geog.ucsb.edu/~jano/ > > Semantic Web Journal: http://www.semantic-web-journal.net > > > > > > -- > > Krzysztof Janowicz > > > > Geography Department, University of California, Santa Barbara > > 4830 Ellison Hall, Santa Barbara, CA 93106-4060 > > > > Email: jano@geog.ucsb.edu > > Webpage: http://geog.ucsb.edu/~jano/ > > Semantic Web Journal: http://www.semantic-web-journal.net > > > > > > -- > > Krzysztof Janowicz > > > > Geography Department, University of California, Santa Barbara > > 4830 Ellison Hall, Santa Barbara, CA 93106-4060 > > > > Email: jano@geog.ucsb.edu > > Webpage: http://geog.ucsb.edu/~jano/ > > Semantic Web Journal: http://www.semantic-web-journal.net > >
Received on Monday, 14 November 2016 00:24:13 UTC