Re: Historical events

On 14/06/18 09:14, Simon.Cox@csiro.au wrote:
>
> ØI do not agree with the definition you give to Event; I think it is 
> to narrow; why should an Event be "scheduled or planned" ?
>
> Because that is the way it has been defined in schema.org and used by 
> the schema.org community.
>
> ØI haven't followed all the discussion, […]
>
> If you had, then you would have seen that it was pointed out earlier 
> in the discussion,
>
> schema:Event subClassOf natural-language:Event .
>
> And as pointed out by others in the last 24 hours, the definitions 
> adopted for schema.org, and established through usage are imperfect, 
> but the legacy is large so significant re-definitions aren’t going to 
> happen within the scope of schema.org.
>

There is however an issue raised, 
<https://github.com/schemaorg/schemaorg/issues/1931> with a proposed 
remedy, about the current definition of schema:Event being too narrow.

I terms of legacy, clarifying that a schema.org type is more widely 
applicable than has been the practice is less problematic that trying to 
narrow the scope of a type that has been widely used.

Phil


> *From:*Thomas Francart [mailto:thomas.francart@sparna.fr]
> *Sent:* Thursday, 14 June, 2018 17:50
> *To:* Muri, Allison <allison.muri@usask.ca>
> *Cc:* public-schemaorg@w3.org
> *Subject:* Re: Historical events
>
> I haven't followed all the discussion, but as a source of inspiration, 
> you can have a look at the types defined in the CIDOC-CRM 
> (http://www.cidoc-crm.org/versions-of-the-cidoc-crm) for cultural 
> heritage descriptions :
>
>   * E4 Period : http://www.cidoc-crm.org/Entity/e4-period/version-6.2
>
>       o "This class comprises sets of coherent phenomena or cultural
>         manifestations occurring in time and space. "
>
>   * E5 Event (defined as a subclass of E4 Period) :
>     http://www.cidoc-crm.org/Entity/e5-event/version-6.2
>     <http://www.cidoc-crm.org/Entity/e5-event/version-6.2>
>
>       o "This class comprises changes of states in cultural, social or
>         physical systems, regardless of scale, brought about by a
>         series or group of coherent physical, cultural, technological
>         or legal phenomena. Such changes of state will affect
>         instances of E77 Persistent Item or its subclasses.
>         The distinction between an E5 Event and an E4 Period is partly
>         a question of the scale of observation. Viewed at a coarse
>         level of detail, an E5 Event is an ‘instantaneous’ change of
>         state. At a fine level, the E5 Event can be analysed into its
>         component phenomena within a space and time frame, and as such
>         can be seen as an E4 Period. The reverse is not necessarily
>         the case: not all instances of E4 Period give rise to a
>         noteworthy change of state."
>
>   * E7 Activity : http://www.cidoc-crm.org/Entity/e7-activity/version-6.2
>
>       o "This class comprises actions intentionally carried out by
>         instances of E39 Actor that result in changes of state in the
>         cultural, social, or physical systems documented.
>         This notion includes complex, composite and long-lasting
>         actions such as the building of a settlement or a war, as well
>         as simple, short-lived actions such as the opening of a door."
>
> I do not agree with the definition you give to Event; I think it is to 
> narrow; why should an Event be "scheduled or planned" ?
>
> thomas
>
> 2018-06-14 6:16 GMT+02:00 Muri, Allison <allison.muri@usask.ca 
> <mailto:allison.muri@usask.ca>>:
>
>     Hello, to all who have been commenting on this question. I have
>     been following with great interest whenever I can.
>
>     I have tried two different approaches for what I originally called
>     historical events. I know I’ve got some things not quite right,
>     but the links below offer preliminary sketches with just a couple
>     examples. I’m leaning toward a new class, Occurrent, as the best
>     solution, because it wouldn’t interfere with the current use of,
>     and assumptions about, Event.
>
>     To reiterate, I am not thinking that HistoricalEvent is the same
>     as merely a past event. What I’m thinking about is something that
>     would be of significant value to webmasters whose sites focus on
>     history, cultural history, natural history, literary history,
>     literature, diaries (e.g. the Diary of Anne Frank), news,
>     political commentary, etc.
>
>     https://sdo-occurrent.appspot.com separates Event and Occurrence
>     into their own classes, as follows:
>
>         *Event: *A planned or scheduled public, social, sporting, or
>         commercial event happening at a certain time and location
>         physical or virtual, such as a concert, lecture, meeting, or
>         festival. Ticketing information may be added via the
>         [[offers]] property. Repeated events may be structured as
>         separate Event objects.
>
>         *Occurrent:* A thing that occurs, happens, or takes place; an
>         incident, especially one of significance.
>
>         More specific types for Occurrent would include such things as:
>
>         • ArmedConflict
>
>         • DiseaseOutbreak
>
>         • Election
>
>         • Enthronement
>
>         • HistoricalEvent
>
>         • Invention
>
>         • Investiture
>
>         • NaturalEvent
>
>         • PersonalEvent
>
>         • PoliticalEvent
>
>         I have examples here for Occurrent and HistoricalEvent.
>
>     https://sdo-historicalevent.appspot.com includes HistoricalEvent
>     as a subclass of Event.
>
>         *Event:* An event happening at a certain time past or future
>         and location physical or virtual, such as a concert,
>         lecture, meeting, festival, or historical event. Ticketing
>         information may be added via the [[offers]] property.
>         Repeated events may be structured as separate Event objects.
>
>         Here there would be a somewhat odd jumbled list of more
>         specific types (the list of Properties from Event, which I
>         haven’t started adding, would be confusingly long and wide
>         ranging in this scenario):
>
>         • ArmedConflict
>         • BusinessEvent
>         • ChildrensEvent
>         • ComedyEvent
>         • CourseInstance
>         • DanceEvent
>         • DeliveryEvent
>         • DiseaseOutbreak
>         • EducationEvent
>         • Election
>         • Enthronement
>         • ExhibitionEvent
>         • Festival
>         • FoodEvent
>         • HistoricalEvent
>         • Invention
>         • Investiture
>         • LiteraryEvent
>         • MusicEvent
>         • NaturalEvent
>         • PersonalEvent
>         • PoliticalEvent
>         • PublicationEvent
>         • SaleEvent
>         • ScreeningEvent
>         • SocialEvent
>         • SportsEvent
>         • TheaterEvent
>
>         • VisualArtsEvent
>
>         I have the example here for HistoricalEvent.
>
>     One last comment, I was looking at
>     http://schema.org/Corporation for examples and thought it strange
>     that the only example is for http://schema.org/Store. Maybe that’s
>     purposeful, but I was wondering if there is an ommission there?
>
>     Thoughts? Advice?
>
>     - Allison
>
>     On Jun 12, 2018, at 1:55 AM, Martin Hepp <mfhepp@gmail.com
>     <mailto:mfhepp@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>
>
>         I think that it is problematic to have a subtype
>         "HistoricEvent", because it will mean that the type for a
>         object will depend on the temporal context. E.g., a day after
>         a conference is over, it wil become a HistoricEvent.
>
>         My feeling is that a lot of confusion stems from the fact that
>         schema.org <http://schema.org> tries to avoid subclasses as
>         long as they do not change the processing of respective
>         entities by search engines. For instance, we do not need a
>         subtype of places as long as all places are rendered the same
>         way by Google et al.
>
>         As a consequence, we attach properties that make sense only
>         for some instances directly to the more abstract classes.
>
>         This sounds unintuitive if you come from a knowledge
>         engineering context, but it is actually so by design. A type
>         in schema.org <http://schema.org> serves as a hookpoint for
>         triggering / grouping computational operations over the data.
>         If you have no algorithmic steps that require a certain
>         distinction, then we do not have respective specializations of
>         a type.
>
>         Best
>
>         Martin
>
>
>         -----------------------------------
>         martin hepp http://www.heppnetz.de
>         mhepp@computer.org <mailto:mhepp@computer.org>          @mfhepp
>
>
>
>
>
>             On 12 Jun 2018, at 09:08, Muri, Allison
>             <allison.muri@usask.ca <mailto:allison.muri@usask.ca>> wrote:
>
>             Many, many thanks to those who have contributed to this
>             interesting discussion. I am working on examples for two
>             types: first, HistoricalEvent as a subtype of Event. The
>             more I work through this as a possibility the more I
>             wonder how usable it would be.  The second is Occurrent as
>             a new type. This would have certain advantages and
>             disadvantages, just as HistoricalEvent as would described
>             above.
>
>             I will add examples tomorrow and then hopefully generate a
>             discussion about the value and applicability of
>             http://schema.org/Event/HistoricalEvent as subclass of
>             Event versus something ttp://schema.org/Event/Occurrent to
>             distinguish between an event as is now used for mostly
>             future events, and the following for anthying that is an
>             occurrencw the past.
>
>             More to come tomorrow.
>
>             - Alliaon
>
>
>             On Jun 4, 2018, at 5:11 AM, Phil Barker
>             <phil.barker@pjjk.co.uk <mailto:phil.barker@pjjk.co.uk>>
>             wrote:
>
>
>
>                 On 03/06/18 00:07, Muri, Allison wrote:
>
>                     Maybe this won’t generate much interest, but I
>                     have obtained my own fork of the Schema.org
>                     <http://Schema.org> GitHub repository and also
>                     have set up a Google App Engine project to be
>                     share it publicly. I take Phil Barker’s point that
>                     one should “first make sure that schema.org
>                     <http://schema.org> is the best vocabulary for
>                     this type of information, e.g. by thinking about
>                     use cases that fall within the scope of its
>                     mission.” I really don’t know the answer to that.
>                     Hopefully I can generate more conversations about
>                     this in the future. Thank you, Phil, for the links
>                     to Richard Wallis’ blog posts and videos.
>
>                 You're welcome.
>
>                 This discussion has already lead to a suggested
>                 improvement in schema.org <http://schema.org>, so
>                 there is clearly some overlap between your interests
>                 and its scope. I like Richard's parallel to
>                 TouristAttraction.
>
>                 I think there are also issues around Periods, Events
>                 and historical reference points that could be unpicked.
>
>
>                     Regarding “they already know those differences,” I
>                     think search engines would not know that “Ætna
>                     groan” in the passage below refers to the 1669
>                     eruption of Mount Etna, a “NaturalEvent” (as
>                     opposed to a satiric reference to a really firey,
>                     angry queen at her coronation) without markup:
>
>                     Nor with more heavy strokes could Ætna groan,
>                     When Vulcan forg’d the Arms for Thetis’ Son.
>
>                     —Poems on Several Subjects, by Stephen Duck (1730)
>
>
>                 This is a good use case. This probably isn't the right
>                 forum to go into details of addressing it, but by way
>                 of illustrating a point ... [I think you mentioned
>                 microdata at one point]
>                 Nor with more heavy strokes could
>                  <span itemprop="mentions" itemscope
>                        itemtype="Event"
>                        name="1669 eruption of Mount Etna">
>                     Ætna groan
>                     <link itemprop="sameas" href=
>                 "https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q2411998"
>
>                     <meta itemprop="location" content="Mount Etna">
>                     <meta itemprop="startDate" content="1669-03-08">
>                  <span>,
>
>                 When Vulcan forg’d the Arms for Thetis’ Son
>                 Follow the sameas URL and you will see that I cheated,
>                 but adding the relevant eruption would be possible,
>                 and what I did link to illustrates how machine
>                 readable information can be provided beyond the
>                 schema.org <http://schema.org> markup. I have been
>                 minimal in my description of the event in the inline
>                 schema.org <http://schema.org> markup, there could be
>                 a lot more there if required/useful.
>
>                 Phil
>
>                 -- 
>                 Phil Barker. http://people.pjjk.net/phil
>                 PJJK Limited: technology to enhance learning;
>                 information systems for education.
>                 CETIS LLP: a cooperative consultancy for innovation in
>                 education technology.
>
>                 PJJK Limited is registered in Scotland as a private
>                 limited company, number SC569282.
>                 CETIS is a co-operative limited liability partnership,
>                 registered in England number OC399090
>
>
>             ....................................................
>             Allison Muri
>             Department of English
>
>             Arts 418
>             University of Saskatchewan
>             Saskatoon, SK, Canada
>             ph: 306.966.5503
>
>     ....................................................
>     Allison Muri
>     Department of English
>
>     Arts 418
>     University of Saskatchewan
>     Saskatoon, SK, Canada
>     ph: 306.966.5503
>
>
>
>
> -- 
>
> *Thomas Francart* -***SPARN**A*
> Web de _données_ | Architecture de l'_information_ | Accès aux 
> _connaissances_
> blog : blog.sparna.fr <http://blog.sparna.fr>, site : sparna.fr 
> <http://sparna.fr>, linkedin : fr.linkedin.com/in/thomasfrancart 
> <https://fr.linkedin.com/in/thomasfrancart>
> tel :  +33 (0)6.71.11.25.97, skype : francartthomas
>

-- 

Phil Barker <https://people.pjjk.net/phil>. http://people.pjjk.net/phil
PJJK Limited <https://www.pjjk.co.uk/>: technology to enhance learning; 
information systems for education.
CETIS LLP <https://www.cetis.org.uk/>: a cooperative consultancy for 
innovation in education technology.

PJJK Limited is registered in Scotland as a private limited company, 
number SC569282.
CETIS is a co-operative limited liability partnership, registered in 
England number OC399090

Received on Thursday, 14 June 2018 10:47:26 UTC