- From: Phil Barker <phil.barker@pjjk.co.uk>
- Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2018 11:46:29 +0100
- To: public-schemaorg@w3.org
- Message-ID: <584d92ca-82d5-cd4d-b410-267a973509bb@pjjk.co.uk>
On 14/06/18 09:14, Simon.Cox@csiro.au wrote: > > ØI do not agree with the definition you give to Event; I think it is > to narrow; why should an Event be "scheduled or planned" ? > > Because that is the way it has been defined in schema.org and used by > the schema.org community. > > ØI haven't followed all the discussion, […] > > If you had, then you would have seen that it was pointed out earlier > in the discussion, > > schema:Event subClassOf natural-language:Event . > > And as pointed out by others in the last 24 hours, the definitions > adopted for schema.org, and established through usage are imperfect, > but the legacy is large so significant re-definitions aren’t going to > happen within the scope of schema.org. > There is however an issue raised, <https://github.com/schemaorg/schemaorg/issues/1931> with a proposed remedy, about the current definition of schema:Event being too narrow. I terms of legacy, clarifying that a schema.org type is more widely applicable than has been the practice is less problematic that trying to narrow the scope of a type that has been widely used. Phil > *From:*Thomas Francart [mailto:thomas.francart@sparna.fr] > *Sent:* Thursday, 14 June, 2018 17:50 > *To:* Muri, Allison <allison.muri@usask.ca> > *Cc:* public-schemaorg@w3.org > *Subject:* Re: Historical events > > I haven't followed all the discussion, but as a source of inspiration, > you can have a look at the types defined in the CIDOC-CRM > (http://www.cidoc-crm.org/versions-of-the-cidoc-crm) for cultural > heritage descriptions : > > * E4 Period : http://www.cidoc-crm.org/Entity/e4-period/version-6.2 > > o "This class comprises sets of coherent phenomena or cultural > manifestations occurring in time and space. " > > * E5 Event (defined as a subclass of E4 Period) : > http://www.cidoc-crm.org/Entity/e5-event/version-6.2 > <http://www.cidoc-crm.org/Entity/e5-event/version-6.2> > > o "This class comprises changes of states in cultural, social or > physical systems, regardless of scale, brought about by a > series or group of coherent physical, cultural, technological > or legal phenomena. Such changes of state will affect > instances of E77 Persistent Item or its subclasses. > The distinction between an E5 Event and an E4 Period is partly > a question of the scale of observation. Viewed at a coarse > level of detail, an E5 Event is an ‘instantaneous’ change of > state. At a fine level, the E5 Event can be analysed into its > component phenomena within a space and time frame, and as such > can be seen as an E4 Period. The reverse is not necessarily > the case: not all instances of E4 Period give rise to a > noteworthy change of state." > > * E7 Activity : http://www.cidoc-crm.org/Entity/e7-activity/version-6.2 > > o "This class comprises actions intentionally carried out by > instances of E39 Actor that result in changes of state in the > cultural, social, or physical systems documented. > This notion includes complex, composite and long-lasting > actions such as the building of a settlement or a war, as well > as simple, short-lived actions such as the opening of a door." > > I do not agree with the definition you give to Event; I think it is to > narrow; why should an Event be "scheduled or planned" ? > > thomas > > 2018-06-14 6:16 GMT+02:00 Muri, Allison <allison.muri@usask.ca > <mailto:allison.muri@usask.ca>>: > > Hello, to all who have been commenting on this question. I have > been following with great interest whenever I can. > > I have tried two different approaches for what I originally called > historical events. I know I’ve got some things not quite right, > but the links below offer preliminary sketches with just a couple > examples. I’m leaning toward a new class, Occurrent, as the best > solution, because it wouldn’t interfere with the current use of, > and assumptions about, Event. > > To reiterate, I am not thinking that HistoricalEvent is the same > as merely a past event. What I’m thinking about is something that > would be of significant value to webmasters whose sites focus on > history, cultural history, natural history, literary history, > literature, diaries (e.g. the Diary of Anne Frank), news, > political commentary, etc. > > https://sdo-occurrent.appspot.com separates Event and Occurrence > into their own classes, as follows: > > *Event: *A planned or scheduled public, social, sporting, or > commercial event happening at a certain time and location > physical or virtual, such as a concert, lecture, meeting, or > festival. Ticketing information may be added via the > [[offers]] property. Repeated events may be structured as > separate Event objects. > > *Occurrent:* A thing that occurs, happens, or takes place; an > incident, especially one of significance. > > More specific types for Occurrent would include such things as: > > • ArmedConflict > > • DiseaseOutbreak > > • Election > > • Enthronement > > • HistoricalEvent > > • Invention > > • Investiture > > • NaturalEvent > > • PersonalEvent > > • PoliticalEvent > > I have examples here for Occurrent and HistoricalEvent. > > https://sdo-historicalevent.appspot.com includes HistoricalEvent > as a subclass of Event. > > *Event:* An event happening at a certain time past or future > and location physical or virtual, such as a concert, > lecture, meeting, festival, or historical event. Ticketing > information may be added via the [[offers]] property. > Repeated events may be structured as separate Event objects. > > Here there would be a somewhat odd jumbled list of more > specific types (the list of Properties from Event, which I > haven’t started adding, would be confusingly long and wide > ranging in this scenario): > > • ArmedConflict > • BusinessEvent > • ChildrensEvent > • ComedyEvent > • CourseInstance > • DanceEvent > • DeliveryEvent > • DiseaseOutbreak > • EducationEvent > • Election > • Enthronement > • ExhibitionEvent > • Festival > • FoodEvent > • HistoricalEvent > • Invention > • Investiture > • LiteraryEvent > • MusicEvent > • NaturalEvent > • PersonalEvent > • PoliticalEvent > • PublicationEvent > • SaleEvent > • ScreeningEvent > • SocialEvent > • SportsEvent > • TheaterEvent > > • VisualArtsEvent > > I have the example here for HistoricalEvent. > > One last comment, I was looking at > http://schema.org/Corporation for examples and thought it strange > that the only example is for http://schema.org/Store. Maybe that’s > purposeful, but I was wondering if there is an ommission there? > > Thoughts? Advice? > > - Allison > > On Jun 12, 2018, at 1:55 AM, Martin Hepp <mfhepp@gmail.com > <mailto:mfhepp@gmail.com>> wrote: > > > > I think that it is problematic to have a subtype > "HistoricEvent", because it will mean that the type for a > object will depend on the temporal context. E.g., a day after > a conference is over, it wil become a HistoricEvent. > > My feeling is that a lot of confusion stems from the fact that > schema.org <http://schema.org> tries to avoid subclasses as > long as they do not change the processing of respective > entities by search engines. For instance, we do not need a > subtype of places as long as all places are rendered the same > way by Google et al. > > As a consequence, we attach properties that make sense only > for some instances directly to the more abstract classes. > > This sounds unintuitive if you come from a knowledge > engineering context, but it is actually so by design. A type > in schema.org <http://schema.org> serves as a hookpoint for > triggering / grouping computational operations over the data. > If you have no algorithmic steps that require a certain > distinction, then we do not have respective specializations of > a type. > > Best > > Martin > > > ----------------------------------- > martin hepp http://www.heppnetz.de > mhepp@computer.org <mailto:mhepp@computer.org> @mfhepp > > > > > > On 12 Jun 2018, at 09:08, Muri, Allison > <allison.muri@usask.ca <mailto:allison.muri@usask.ca>> wrote: > > Many, many thanks to those who have contributed to this > interesting discussion. I am working on examples for two > types: first, HistoricalEvent as a subtype of Event. The > more I work through this as a possibility the more I > wonder how usable it would be. The second is Occurrent as > a new type. This would have certain advantages and > disadvantages, just as HistoricalEvent as would described > above. > > I will add examples tomorrow and then hopefully generate a > discussion about the value and applicability of > http://schema.org/Event/HistoricalEvent as subclass of > Event versus something ttp://schema.org/Event/Occurrent to > distinguish between an event as is now used for mostly > future events, and the following for anthying that is an > occurrencw the past. > > More to come tomorrow. > > - Alliaon > > > On Jun 4, 2018, at 5:11 AM, Phil Barker > <phil.barker@pjjk.co.uk <mailto:phil.barker@pjjk.co.uk>> > wrote: > > > > On 03/06/18 00:07, Muri, Allison wrote: > > Maybe this won’t generate much interest, but I > have obtained my own fork of the Schema.org > <http://Schema.org> GitHub repository and also > have set up a Google App Engine project to be > share it publicly. I take Phil Barker’s point that > one should “first make sure that schema.org > <http://schema.org> is the best vocabulary for > this type of information, e.g. by thinking about > use cases that fall within the scope of its > mission.” I really don’t know the answer to that. > Hopefully I can generate more conversations about > this in the future. Thank you, Phil, for the links > to Richard Wallis’ blog posts and videos. > > You're welcome. > > This discussion has already lead to a suggested > improvement in schema.org <http://schema.org>, so > there is clearly some overlap between your interests > and its scope. I like Richard's parallel to > TouristAttraction. > > I think there are also issues around Periods, Events > and historical reference points that could be unpicked. > > > Regarding “they already know those differences,” I > think search engines would not know that “Ætna > groan” in the passage below refers to the 1669 > eruption of Mount Etna, a “NaturalEvent” (as > opposed to a satiric reference to a really firey, > angry queen at her coronation) without markup: > > Nor with more heavy strokes could Ætna groan, > When Vulcan forg’d the Arms for Thetis’ Son. > > —Poems on Several Subjects, by Stephen Duck (1730) > > > This is a good use case. This probably isn't the right > forum to go into details of addressing it, but by way > of illustrating a point ... [I think you mentioned > microdata at one point] > Nor with more heavy strokes could > <span itemprop="mentions" itemscope > itemtype="Event" > name="1669 eruption of Mount Etna"> > Ætna groan > <link itemprop="sameas" href= > "https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q2411998" > > <meta itemprop="location" content="Mount Etna"> > <meta itemprop="startDate" content="1669-03-08"> > <span>, > > When Vulcan forg’d the Arms for Thetis’ Son > Follow the sameas URL and you will see that I cheated, > but adding the relevant eruption would be possible, > and what I did link to illustrates how machine > readable information can be provided beyond the > schema.org <http://schema.org> markup. I have been > minimal in my description of the event in the inline > schema.org <http://schema.org> markup, there could be > a lot more there if required/useful. > > Phil > > -- > Phil Barker. http://people.pjjk.net/phil > PJJK Limited: technology to enhance learning; > information systems for education. > CETIS LLP: a cooperative consultancy for innovation in > education technology. > > PJJK Limited is registered in Scotland as a private > limited company, number SC569282. > CETIS is a co-operative limited liability partnership, > registered in England number OC399090 > > > .................................................... > Allison Muri > Department of English > > Arts 418 > University of Saskatchewan > Saskatoon, SK, Canada > ph: 306.966.5503 > > .................................................... > Allison Muri > Department of English > > Arts 418 > University of Saskatchewan > Saskatoon, SK, Canada > ph: 306.966.5503 > > > > > -- > > *Thomas Francart* -***SPARN**A* > Web de _données_ | Architecture de l'_information_ | Accès aux > _connaissances_ > blog : blog.sparna.fr <http://blog.sparna.fr>, site : sparna.fr > <http://sparna.fr>, linkedin : fr.linkedin.com/in/thomasfrancart > <https://fr.linkedin.com/in/thomasfrancart> > tel : +33 (0)6.71.11.25.97, skype : francartthomas > -- Phil Barker <https://people.pjjk.net/phil>. http://people.pjjk.net/phil PJJK Limited <https://www.pjjk.co.uk/>: technology to enhance learning; information systems for education. CETIS LLP <https://www.cetis.org.uk/>: a cooperative consultancy for innovation in education technology. PJJK Limited is registered in Scotland as a private limited company, number SC569282. CETIS is a co-operative limited liability partnership, registered in England number OC399090
Received on Thursday, 14 June 2018 10:47:26 UTC