- From: Anthony Moretti <anthony.moretti@gmail.com>
- Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2018 14:09:03 -0700
- To: Sebastian Samaruga <ssamarug@gmail.com>
- Cc: Simon Cox <Simon.Cox@csiro.au>, Dan Brickley <danbri@google.com>, Peter Patel-Schneider <pfpschneider@gmail.com>, Richard Wallis <richard.wallis@dataliberate.com>, semantic-web@w3.org, public-schemaorg@w3.org
- Message-ID: <CACusdfRJmKEcB0VbngTb6Z_6i9wkRg=u5NATmVtmyf-C+2Wz+w@mail.gmail.com>
I took a closer look at the use of "Specification" and I now see that it's only used to mean "Type" in one place in the schema - PropertyValueSpecification, the other eight times it's used to refer to a StructuredValue, so the generalization I made in my last message was wrong, I'm sorry. I tried to see where naming conventions might create more naming consistency and I'm wondering what people think about these ideas? - For *StructuredValue types*: "Specification", or alternatively "Description", should either be removed or added to all. (My own preference is added.) - For *Enumeration types*: "Type" should either be removed or added to all. (My own preference is removed.) I then looked for more cases where appending "Type" to names of types-of-types might create consistency: *CourseType* (currently Course) *Course *(currently CourseInstance) *ProductType *(currently ProductModel, subtype of Product) *Product* IndividualProduct (suggest removing) *PropertyValueType* (currently PropertyValueSpecification) *PropertyValue* *AudienceType (currently Audience)DishOrDrinkType (currently MenuItem)QuantityType (currently Quantity)* *RoomType (currently BedDetails)* I think I now understand the opposition to making Offer etc. a subtype of Event. So my only proposals regarding Event/Intangible are: *Event* * DeliveryEvent* * ParcelDeliveryEvent *(currently ParcelDelivery, subtype of Intangible) *Trip *(currently subtype of Intangible) Any feedback on these ideas would be awesome! Anthony On Tue, Jun 12, 2018 at 12:17 PM Anthony Moretti <anthony.moretti@gmail.com> wrote: > I admit I didn't see CourseInstance under Event. I still have an issue > with the naming though because as it stands we have "instances of Courses" > and "instances of CourseInstances": > > *Course* > Stanford CS101 (Course instance) > > *Event* > > *CourseInstance* > *StanfordCS101* > Stanford CS101 2018-19 (CourseInstance instance) > > > It comes down to how to name things when types are also desirable as > instances. A couple of strategies already in use in Schema are to append > "Specification" or "Model" to the type name. So this might work for courses: > > *CourseSpecification* > Stanford CS101 > > *Event* > > *Course* > *StanfordCS101* > Stanford CS101 2018-19 > > > The same could be done for Offer: > > *OfferSpecification* > Macy's 50% Black Friday sale > > *Event* > > *Offer* > Macy's 50% Black Friday sale 2018 > > > Likewise, ProductModel ideally shouldn't be a subtype of Product (I think > the reasoning about reuse of properties such as "weight" is flawed). It'd > make more sense to follow the same pattern as the previous examples: > > *ProductModel* > iPhone X > > *Product* > > iPhone X (serial number 12345678) > > > And IndividualProduct would be removed entirely because of redundancy with > Product. I think that when looking at type names, inclusion of > "Individual", "Instance", or "Occurrence" are signs of potential naming or > structural issues. > > In my view we could possibly also have a consistent and simple naming > convention by using "Type", instead of "Specification" or "Model" for > example, in all places where types are instances, so: > > *CourseType* > > *OfferType* > > *ProductType* > > > (It even scales in the rare situations you need to model types of types > and so on: TypeType, TypeTypeType...) > > On the separate topic of Events, Peter and Simon brought up endurants and > perdurants - what about schema:Event is insufficient to cover all > perdurants? I'm not saying we should add all types of perdurants to Event, > that's not the intention of Schema, but why can't types we already have, > like Trip, be moved from Intangible and put under Event? Why is a Festival > an Event but a Trip not? > > Anthony > > On Tue, Jun 12, 2018 at 8:43 AM Sebastian Samaruga <ssamarug@gmail.com> > wrote: > >> I've just uploaded PDF versions of the files so you can preview them in >> browser instead of downloading them. Thanks! >> >> On Mon, Jun 11, 2018, 9:32 PM <Simon.Cox@csiro.au> wrote: >> >>> Hey Sebastian – >>> >>> >>> >>> If you are using GitHub for blogging, then I suggest you write in >>> Markdown, rather than attaching .docx. >>> >>> That way we can read your musings directly instead of having to >>> download. >>> >>> >>> >>> *From:* Sebastian Samaruga [mailto:ssamarug@gmail.com] >>> *Sent:* Tuesday, 12 June, 2018 10:22 >>> *To:* Cox, Simon (L&W, Clayton) <Simon.Cox@csiro.au> >>> *Cc:* Anthony Moretti <anthony.moretti@gmail.com>; Dan Brickley < >>> danbri@google.com>; Peter F. Patel-Schneider <pfpschneider@gmail.com>; >>> Richard Wallis <richard.wallis@dataliberate.com>; >>> public-schemaorg@w3.org; W3C Semantic Web IG <semantic-web@w3.org>; >>> public-rww <public-rww@w3.org> >>> *Subject:* Re: Schema.org and OWL >>> >>> >>> >>> I don't know if this really deserves attention in this context. I can't >>> stop trying to figure out how to solve issues as such in this thread but >>> also a more general way of using RDF (Quads) to solve other kind of >>> mediation / alignment issues in a distributed manner. >>> >>> >>> >>> As I go along I'm dumping my thoughts in an ideas scrapbook manner. As >>> long as I'll be able to put them into readable documents format I'll be >>> publishing them in raw form, just for the case I'm missing something. >>> >>> >>> >>> https://github.com/ssamarug/ssamarug >>> >>> >>> >>> http://exampledotorg.blogspot.com >>> >>> >>> >>> (warning: these are just raw statements of concepts or ideas. I don't >>> currently have time to put them in an orderly fashion, the purpose is >>> solely to have them somewhere in the hope of having a chance to collaborate >>> into developing them further). >>> >>> >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Sebastian. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Jun 11, 2018, 1:30 PM Sebastian Samaruga <ssamarug@gmail.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>> In the realm of upper ontologies I think ISO-15926 [1] handles this sort >>> of issues nicely (that's why I'm copying this thread to semantic-web) but >>> it is a whole of an upper ontology and didn't have the time to understand >>> it completely. >>> >>> >>> >>> For what is whorth for me, I'm trying to adapt an object-oriented design >>> pattern (DCI: Data, Context and Interactions [2]) to the realm of RDF Quads >>> metamodels. There I regard of dimensionally aggregated data (D) for which >>> schema occurrences (C) play roles in behaviors instances / flows (I). >>> >>> >>> >>> I'm working in a formal description of the later, and I've also posted >>> previously some blurry early drafts. I also have a strong focus in ontology >>> alignments / translations so the use case could fit for generating other >>> schema documents. Regards, >>> >>> Sebastián. >>> >>> >>> >>> [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_15926 >>> >>> >>> >>> [2] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Data,_context_and_interaction >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Jun 11, 2018, 5:23 AM <Simon.Cox@csiro.au> wrote: >>> >>> My read of all this is that >>> >>> >>> >>> schema.org:Event subClassOf natural-language:Event . >>> >>> >>> >>> You need to recognize that the name of the concept in schema.org is >>> more specialized that the use of the word 'Event' in all English-language >>> usages. >>> >>> >>> >>> The upper-ontologies resolve this by using a more technical word - like >>> occurrent or perdurant - which includes all time-bounded things including >>> both planned events, unplanned incidents, things that move around, as well >>> as other kinds of interactions. But even these attempts to define >>> universals must be taken with a pinch of salt. Classification is contextual >>> - the 'same thing' may be classified differently in different applications. >>> The main application of schema.org is SEO, so the classification system >>> is tuned to that. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> *Simon J D Cox* >>> Research Scientist >>> Land and Water >>> <http://www.csiro.au/Organisation-Structure/Flagships/Land-and-Water> >>> CSIRO >>> >>> E simon.cox@csiro.au *T* +61 3 9545 2365 *M* +61 403 302 672 >>> * Physical: *Reception Central, Bayview Avenue, Clayton, Vic 3168 >>> * Deliveries: *Gate 3, Normanby Road, Clayton, Vic 3168 >>> *Postal:* Private Bag 10, Clayton South, Vic 3169 >>> people.csiro.au/C/S/Simon-Cox >>> orcid.org/0000-0002-3884-3420 >>> researchgate.net/profile/Simon_Cox3 >>> <https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Simon_Cox3> >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> *From:* Anthony Moretti <anthony.moretti@gmail.com> >>> *Sent:* Monday, 11 June 2018 8:26 AM >>> *To:* Dan Brickley >>> *Cc:* Peter F. Patel-Schneider; Richard Wallis; public-schemaorg@w3.org >>> *Subject:* Re: Schema.org and OWL >>> >>> >>> >>> Yep I definitely understand it doesn't imply disjointedness. But >>> subclassing is answered by the "some or all" test, and I'd argue that all >>> instances of these types are events. For example, is there an example of a >>> trip that is not an event? >>> >>> >>> >>> And yep I completely agree, some not all books have current offers for >>> sale/trade, so books are not a subtype of product. And I completely agree >>> with the second example too, some not all things being offered are creative >>> works. For example, an orange being offered for sale is a product but not a >>> creative work, thus not all products are creative works. So I don't think >>> those are examples of tradeoffs by schema.org, they're completely >>> correct modeling by schema.org. >>> >>> >>> >>> If things like trips aren't considered events then strange behavior or >>> additional work for people will result. For example a reasoner might look >>> for all events to display on a calendar, but with the current structure all >>> trips will have to be additionally typed as events, when in my view it >>> should be implicit from already being classified as a trip. >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Jun 10, 2018 at 2:38 PM Dan Brickley <danbri@google.com> wrote: >>> >>> The lack of a "subclassof" relationship doesn't mean we consider the >>> types disjoint. You might similarly argue that all books are products, or >>> that all products are creative works. While we respect the efforts of the >>> ontologies community, Schema org is a bit different in the tradeoffs we >>> have chosen to make. The looseness may be frustrating but it has also >>> helped us grow this thing incrementally. >>> >>> >>> >>> Dan >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sun, 10 Jun 2018, 14:28 Anthony Moretti, <anthony.moretti@gmail.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>> If we believe schema.org will be used long into the future then even if >>> changes are hard we should try to make them right? >>> >>> >>> >>> Arguing by word origins, even the word "action" comes from "event". >>> Using the dictionary on Google: >>> >>> >>> >>> "action" >>> >>> "act" >>> >>> "actus" (Latin) - event, thing done >>> >>> >>> >>> Arguing by structure, Actions on schema.org duplicate the startDate and >>> endDate properties (startTime and endTime). Additionally, Actions have a >>> state property on schema.org but Events do not, yet all action states >>> can all be derived from more general event states. So putting Action, or >>> any type with a startDate or endDate, as a subtype of Event actually >>> removes redundancy. >>> >>> >>> >>> A simple test to determine whether something is an event or not is can >>> it be put on a calendar and look normal? I think instances of all the types >>> I mentioned can: >>> >>> >>> >>> Event >>> >>> Action >>> >>> Course >>> >>> Offer >>> >>> ParcelDelivery >>> >>> Relationship >>> >>> Trip >>> >>> >>> >>> Anthony >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Jun 10, 2018 at 11:38 AM Dan Brickley <danbri@google.com> wrote: >>> >>> Yeah, we decided against cramming Actions under Event a long time ago, >>> even if it has a certain appeal; I' d say same goes for the other event-ish >>> types. >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sun, 10 Jun 2018, 11:24 Peter F. Patel-Schneider, < >>> pfpschneider@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>> It's very difficult to determine what things are instance of schema.org >>> Event >>> because the guidance is so slim, particularly as we are not supposed to >>> take >>> into account most of the information on http://schema.org/Event. My >>> view is >>> that even if we are supposed to ignore everything after "certain time and >>> location", then schema.org Event should be read narrowly, excluding >>> things >>> that don't have a certain time or don't have a certain location. This >>> would >>> rule out Action, ParcelDelivery (as the entire delivery process), and >>> Trip, as >>> these generally take place over several locations. Offer is ruled out >>> because it often doesn't have a location at all and its temporal >>> information >>> doesn't have to do with its "happening". Course is also ruled out >>> because it >>> is more than a sequence of lectures. >>> >>> >>> One could take an expansive view of schema.org Event, perhaps saying >>> that its >>> instances are anything that has a temporal component and a spatial >>> component. So Bill Murray is an instance of schema.org Event via his >>> birth >>> date and his location on Earth, as is his membership in the cast of >>> Ghostbusters. But then what things aren't instances of Event (besides >>> platonic entities like 3, if you assume that there are any truly platonic >>> entities)? >>> >>> >>> Is there a middle ground? Formal ontologists have attempted to create >>> one---dividing the universe into endurants and perdurants. But I don't >>> see >>> that schema.org Event is getting at the meaning of perdurant. >>> >>> >>> peter >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On 06/10/2018 12:32 AM, Anthony Moretti wrote: >>> > Let's get the easy ones out of the way before looking at Roles. The >>> > following are obviously subtypes of event, I might create an issue on >>> GitHub >>> > to get more feedback: >>> > >>> > Event >>> > >>> > Action >>> > >>> > Course >>> > >>> > Offer >>> > >>> > ParcelDelivery >>> > >>> > Trip >>> > >>> > >>> > I'll argue for Role now. In my view, it would be easier to understand >>> if the >>> > terminology was Relation, or Relationship, rather than Role. >>> > >>> > An event is either: >>> > >>> > * A period of time (e.g. Jun 9, 2018, 12 PM - 1 PM) >>> > * The period of time that a statement, explicit or implicit, is true >>> (e.g. >>> > My run this morning = Anthony isRunning True) >>> > >>> > To be clear, having the same statement exist with different periods of >>> > validity can still be consistent: >>> > >>> > * Anthony isRunning True (Jun 9, 2018, 12 PM - 1 PM) >>> > * Anthony isRunning True (Jun 8, 2018, 12 PM - 1 PM) >>> > >>> > If you look at temporal databases >>> > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temporal_database> every fact has >>> a valid >>> > time <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valid_time> - the time period >>> during >>> > which the fact is true. Therefore if you reify any fact or >>> relationship you >>> > produce something with start or end times, therefore producing an >>> event. >>> > >>> > In schema.org <http://schema.org>: >>> > >>> > 1. All Roles are reified relationships. >>> > 2. Therefore all Roles have "valid times". >>> > 3. Therefore all Roles have start or end times. >>> > 4. Therefore all Roles are events. >>> > >>> > If the terminology was updated it would look like: >>> > >>> > Event >>> > >>> > Relationship, or Relation (currently Role) >>> > >>> > >>> > Regarding Bill Murray, what is being modeled if not the fact that Bill >>> > Murray was involved as an actor during its filming, and so for a >>> period of time? >>> > >>> > And yep, I agree that you can define an entity and separately define an >>> > event that represents its period of existence. But you can't do that >>> for an >>> > event, and in like fashion you can't do that for a statement either, >>> it just >>> > wouldn't make sense for either right? >>> > >>> > Anthony >>> > >>> > >>> > On Sat, Jun 9, 2018 at 6:52 PM Peter F. Patel-Schneider >>> > <pfpschneider@gmail.com <mailto:pfpschneider@gmail.com>> wrote: >>> > >>> > Yes, many Roles in schema.org <http://schema.org> are events, and >>> could >>> > be so modelled. But not >>> > all, in my opinion, or at least not usefully. >>> > >>> > >>> > For example the relationship between Bill Murray and Ghostbusters >>> is not an >>> > event. It was, perhaps, initiated by a bunch of events, namely a >>> > sequence of >>> > acting performances that were captured and edited together to form >>> the >>> > movie. >>> > However, that bunch of events is not the relationship being >>> modelled. >>> > >>> > >>> > It's just like one might model people as their lives, i.e., an >>> event that >>> > plays out (roughly) from conception to death. But I find it >>> useful to >>> > distinguish between a person and their life event. >>> > >>> > >>> > peter >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > On 06/06/2018 09:01 PM, Anthony Moretti wrote: >>> > > I agree that the first problem to do with strings can be solved >>> by boxing >>> > > them into anonymous individuals. On the second problem to do >>> with Roles I >>> > > agree that you can't do a simple "subjectOf" transform because >>> Role is not >>> > > in the domain of "about", but maybe defining a new property such >>> as >>> > > "participantIn" (domain Thing, range Role) and using it wherever >>> a Role is >>> > > the object of a statement might keep about the same level of >>> meaning (not >>> > > very good) but at least make it consistent OWL? So your example >>> would be >>> > > transformed to: >>> > > >>> > > DJT : Person >>> > > >>> > > participantIn ? : Role >>> > > >>> > > spouse MM : Person >>> > > >>> > > startDate : 1993 >>> > > >>> > > endDate : 1999 >>> > > >>> > > participantIn ? : Role >>> > > >>> > > spouse IT : Person >>> > > >>> > > startDate : 1977 >>> > > >>> > > endDate : 1992 >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > A more general solution using guidance >>> > > from https://www.w3.org/TR/swbp-n-aryRelations/ and with better >>> meaning >>> > > might be: >>> > > >>> > > DJT : Person >>> > > >>> > > isSpouseFor ? : MarriageRelation >>> > > >>> > > spouse DJT : Person >>> > > >>> > > spouse MM : Person >>> > > >>> > > startDate : 1993 >>> > > >>> > > endDate : 1999 >>> > > >>> > > isSpouseFor ? : MarriageRelation >>> > > >>> > > spouse DJT : Person >>> > > >>> > > spouse IT : Person >>> > > >>> > > startDate : 1977 >>> > > >>> > > endDate : 1992 >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > Your question about movie roles is also solved by this, for >>> example: >>> > > >>> > > Bill Murray : Person >>> > > >>> > > isActorFor ? : PerformanceRelation >>> > > >>> > > actor Bill Murray : Person >>> > > >>> > > movie Ghostbusters : Movie >>> > > >>> > > characterName : Dr. Peter Venkman >>> > > >>> > > startDate : 1983 >>> > > >>> > > endDate : 1984 >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > Class hierarchy: >>> > > >>> > > Event >>> > > >>> > > Relation >>> > > >>> > > MarriageRelation >>> > > >>> > > PerformanceRelation >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > I think confusion might come from the many English meanings of >>> "role": >>> > > >>> > > Type of role, e.g. Quarterback - no start or end dates. >>> > > Instance of a role, e.g. 49ers quarterback 1979-1992 - >>> potential start >>> > > and end dates. >>> > > Character, e.g. Hamlet - no start or end dates. >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > So I'm still lead to believe that Role/Relation and several >>> other types in >>> > > schema.org <http://schema.org> <http://schema.org> are subtypes >>> of >>> > Event because their instances >>> > > always have potential start and end dates: >>> > > >>> > > Event >>> > > >>> > > Action >>> > > >>> > > Course >>> > > >>> > > Role/Relation >>> > > >>> > > Offer >>> > > >>> > > ParcelDelivery >>> > > >>> > > Trip >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > Anybody else think this too? I'm a bit new to this so hope I'm >>> not putting >>> > > something too strange out there! >>> > > >>> > > Anthony >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > On Wed, Jun 6, 2018 at 3:20 PM Peter F. Patel-Schneider >>> > > <pfpschneider@gmail.com <mailto:pfpschneider@gmail.com> >>> > <mailto:pfpschneider@gmail.com <mailto:pfpschneider@gmail.com>>> >>> wrote: >>> > > >>> > > The short-circuiting of Role in schema.org < >>> http://schema.org> >>> > <http://schema.org> is >>> > > certainly outside of >>> > > schema.org <http://schema.org> <http://schema.org>. OWL >>> has >>> > nothing that can do the right >>> > > thing with the following >>> > > schema.org <http://schema.org> <http://schema.org> data >>> > > >>> > > DJT : Person >>> > > spouse ? : Role >>> > > spouse MM : Person >>> > > startDate : 1991 >>> > > endDate : 1999 >>> > > spouse ? : Role >>> > > spouse IT : Person >>> > > startDate : 1977 >>> > > endDate: 1992 >>> > > spouse MT : Person >>> > > particularly in conjunction with >>> > > spouse >>> > > domain Person >>> > > range Person >>> > > >>> > > Except that you could turn *all* property values (except >>> maybe for >>> > those >>> > > properties that are guaranteed never to have a Role >>> intermediary) into >>> > > events >>> > > *before* they got to OWL. This would look something like: >>> > > >>> > > DJT : Person >>> > > spouseEvent ? : SpouseEvent >>> > > spouse MM : Person >>> > > startDate : 1991 >>> > > endDate : 1999 >>> > > spouseEvent ? : SpouseEvent >>> > > spouse IT : Person >>> > > startDate : 1997 >>> > > endDate : 1992 >>> > > spouseEvent ? : SpouseEvent >>> > > spouse MT : Person >>> > > spouse range Person >>> > > domain SpouseEvent >>> > > spouseEvent range SpouseEvent >>> > > domain Person >>> > > SpouseEvent sub Event >>> > > startDate range Date >>> > > endDate range Date >>> > > >>> > > Hah! That turned out better than I thought it would, but I >>> view the >>> > > need for >>> > > the transform as showing that schema.org <http://schema.org> >>> > <http://schema.org> Role is >>> > > outside the purview of OWL >>> > > because it requires major surgery to the underlying ontology >>> (as >>> > opposed >>> > > to a >>> > > transform to handle "strings as things" that just replaces >>> such >>> > strings >>> > > with a >>> > > blank node connected to the string by some sort of >>> description >>> > property >>> > > which >>> > > doesn't require such surgery). >>> > > >>> > > And then what do you do about movie roles? They shouldn't >>> have start >>> > > and end >>> > > dates, or even have the possibility of start and end dates. >>> > > >>> > > peter >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > On 06/06/2018 02:50 PM, Anthony Moretti wrote: >>> > > > Peter, when you say "roles fall outside the purview of >>> OWL" is >>> > it possible >>> > > > that Role should be a subtype of Event, thus requiring no >>> special >>> > > treatment? >>> > > > I say that because individual roles have potential start >>> and end >>> > dates. >>> > > > >>> > > > If you continue that thinking you end up with several >>> types that >>> > might be >>> > > > considered subtypes of Event: >>> > > > >>> > > > Event >>> > > > >>> > > > Action >>> > > > Course >>> > > > Role >>> > > > Offer >>> > > > Parcel delivery >>> > > > Trip >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > Anthony >>> > > > >>> > > > On Wed, Jun 6, 2018 at 7:42 AM Peter F. Patel-Schneider >>> > > > <pfpschneider@gmail.com <mailto:pfpschneider@gmail.com> >>> > <mailto:pfpschneider@gmail.com <mailto:pfpschneider@gmail.com>> >>> > > <mailto:pfpschneider@gmail.com <mailto: >>> pfpschneider@gmail.com> >>> > <mailto:pfpschneider@gmail.com <mailto:pfpschneider@gmail.com>>>> >>> wrote: >>> > > > >>> > > > OK, it appears that you are trying to produce an OWL >>> > ontology that >>> > > would >>> > > > accept schema.org <http://schema.org> < >>> http://schema.org> >>> > <http://schema.org> >>> > > documents that would accept >>> > > > unexceptional schema.org <http://schema.org> >>> > <http://schema.org> <http://schema.org> >>> > > > documents (under some loose definition of what makes an >>> > unexceptional >>> > > > schema.org <http://schema.org> <http://schema.org> >>> > <http://schema.org> document). >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > But you are running up against problems with "strings >>> as >>> > things" and >>> > > > Roles. >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > Look at about and subjectOf. Any use of a string as a >>> > value for >>> > > about is >>> > > > going to make that string an instance of two OWL >>> Classes >>> > (the range of >>> > > > about, >>> > > > which includes Text, and the domain of subjectOf, which >>> > doesn't). >>> > > This >>> > > > is not >>> > > > permissible in OWL. >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > Using a role as a value for subjectOf will make the >>> role node an >>> > > instance of >>> > > > the domain of about, which doesn't include Role. >>> Roles fall >>> > > outside the >>> > > > purview of OWL. >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > What I think has to be done for "strings as things" is >>> to >>> > > preprocess them as >>> > > > an anonymous node with the string as the value of some >>> > description >>> > > > property. >>> > > > Roles need to be short-circuited and the role values >>> > eliminated. >>> > > If the >>> > > > role >>> > > > values are to be retained then some sort of fancy >>> > reification has >>> > > to be >>> > > > introduced. >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > But a lot of this is guesswork, as it is unclear just >>> what >>> > "strings as >>> > > > things" >>> > > > and Roles mean in schema.org <http://schema.org> >>> > <http://schema.org> >>> > > <http://schema.org>. (I haven't looked >>> > > > closely at the use of URLs >>> > > > as stand-ins for objects but my guess is that that is >>> similar to >>> > > "strings as >>> > > > things".) >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > OWL makes a distinction between object and data >>> values, and this >>> > > distinction >>> > > > has to be carried through to the ontology, where there >>> are >>> > classes and >>> > > > datatypes. As far as I can tell Text should be a >>> datatype. >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > peter >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > On 06/06/2018 07:09 AM, Richard Wallis wrote: >>> > > > > Just the fresh pair of experienced eyes I needed! - >>> Thanks >>> > @Thomas >>> > > > > >>> > > > > @Danbri - not “wasting a lot of time agonising", in >>> simple >>> > terms >>> > > I’m just >>> > > > > [selfishly] trying to get a useful version to load >>> > into Protégé and >>> > > > > hopefully helping a few others at the same time. >>> > > > > >>> > > > > @Peter thanks for your thoughtful questions. As you >>> can see >>> > > from the >>> > > > above >>> > > > > the prime simple objective is to get it visible >>> > in Protégé. Beyond >>> > > > that, it >>> > > > > is to capture the class and property hierarchy of >>> Schema.org >>> > > including >>> > > > > the multiple domain/ranges of properties defined [In >>> > Schema.org] >>> > > using >>> > > > > domainIncludes & rangeIncludes, in a way that a tool >>> > > like Protégé can cope >>> > > > > with. As for ranges, it includes the assumption that >>> > properties, in >>> > > > > addition to the defined range(s), also have Text, >>> URL, and >>> > Role >>> > > > included in >>> > > > > their range. >>> > > > > >>> > > > > Once I’ve done it, I want to add the simple >>> generating code to >>> > > the Schema >>> > > > > scripts run at release time so that it can be kept >>> up to date. >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > ~Richard. >>> > > > > >>> > > > > Richard Wallis >>> > > > > Founder, Data Liberate >>> > > > > http://dataliberate.com >>> > > > > Linkedin: http://www.linkedin.com/in/richardwallis >>> > > > > Twitter: @rjw >>> > > > > >>> > > > > On 6 June 2018 at 14:45, Peter F. Patel-Schneider >>> > > > <pfpschneider@gmail.com <mailto:pfpschneider@gmail.com >>> > >>> > <mailto:pfpschneider@gmail.com <mailto:pfpschneider@gmail.com>> >>> > > <mailto:pfpschneider@gmail.com <mailto: >>> pfpschneider@gmail.com> >>> > <mailto:pfpschneider@gmail.com <mailto:pfpschneider@gmail.com>>> >>> > > > > <mailto:pfpschneider@gmail.com >>> > <mailto:pfpschneider@gmail.com> <mailto:pfpschneider@gmail.com >>> > <mailto:pfpschneider@gmail.com>> >>> > > <mailto:pfpschneider@gmail.com <mailto: >>> pfpschneider@gmail.com> >>> > <mailto:pfpschneider@gmail.com <mailto:pfpschneider@gmail.com>>>>> >>> wrote: >>> > > > > >>> > > > > It's hard to say much about the file without >>> knowing >>> > what it is >>> > > > supposed to >>> > > > > capture. >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > It is supposed to capture the class and property >>> > hierarchy and >>> > > > property >>> > > > > restrictions or schema.org <http://schema.org> >>> > <http://schema.org> >>> > > <http://schema.org> >>> > > > <http://schema.org>, but not necessarily in a >>> > > > > form compatible with RDFS >>> > > > > or OWL? >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > Is it supposed to faithfully encode the model >>> theory of >>> > > schema.org <http://schema.org> <http://schema.org> >>> > > > <http://schema.org> >>> > > > > <http://schema.org> in OWL? >>> > > > > If so, where is the document for this theory? >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > Is it supposed to capture "strings as things" or >>> Roles? >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > How does it view property domains and ranges? >>> As >>> > axioms? >>> > > As strict >>> > > > > constraints? As soft constraints? >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > I would also move from rdf/xml to turtle, which >>> is >>> > easier to >>> > > write and >>> > > > > easier >>> > > > > to read. >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > peter >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > On 06/06/2018 05:05 AM, Richard Wallis wrote: >>> > > > > > Calling folks with more OWL experience than me! >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > > The schema.org <http://schema.org> >>> > <http://schema.org> <http://schema.org> >>> > > <http://schema.org> >>> > > > <http://schema.org> site has an OWL >>> > > > > definition file that has >>> > > > > > not been maintained since April >>> > > > 2014: http://schema.org/docs/schemaorg.owl >>> > > > <http://schema.org/docs/schemaorg.owl>. >>> > > > > > Also the structure and syntax of the file >>> needs some >>> > > attention. >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > > To help with the occasional questions about >>> accessing >>> > > processable >>> > > > > > representations of the vocabulary; to attempt >>> to >>> > close an >>> > > issue >>> > > > (#1611 >>> > > > > > < >>> https://github.com/schemaorg/schemaorg/issues/1611 >>> > > > > >>> > <https://github.com/schemaorg/schemaorg/issues/1611>>); and to >>> > > > help with a >>> > > > > > personal project, I have had a look at >>> producing an >>> > up to >>> > > date, >>> > > > improved, >>> > > > > > maintainable version of the file. >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > > My first attempt can be downloaded/viewed >>> > > > > > >>> > > here: >>> https://s3.amazonaws.com/rjwPublicData/public/schemaorg.owl >>> > > > > >>> > <https://s3.amazonaws.com/rjwPublicData/public/schemaorg.owl> >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > > I am looking for comments, suggestions, and >>> help >>> > around a few >>> > > > aspects of >>> > > > > > this work in progress: >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > > * Is it generally ‘a good owl file’ >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > > * Should it contain more/less info about >>> > the vocabulary and >>> > > > its terms >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > > * Specifically with reference to >>> domainIncludes and >>> > > rangeInclude - >>> > > > > mapped >>> > > > > > to rdfs:domain & rdfs:range with >>> > owl:unionOfcollections: >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > > o Is this the best/only way to represent >>> multiple >>> > > domain & >>> > > > > ranges for >>> > > > > > an objectproperty? >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > > o Have I got the syntax correct? >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > > * Several people use Protégé >>> > > <https://protege.stanford.edu/> as a >>> > > > > tool for >>> > > > > > this kind of effort - I am trying to >>> identify >>> > what syntax, >>> > > > will enable >>> > > > > > this tool to recognise the multiple >>> > domain/ranges when >>> > > importing >>> > > > > this file. >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > > If anyone out there with more OWL experience >>> than me >>> > (not >>> > > > difficult), >>> > > > > could >>> > > > > > spend a few minutes taking a look at this and >>> > commenting, it >>> > > > would be >>> > > > > > greatly appreciated. >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > > ~Richard >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > > Richard Wallis >>> > > > > > Founder, Data Liberate >>> > > > > > http://dataliberate.com >>> > > > > > Linkedin: >>> http://www.linkedin.com/in/richardwallis >>> > > > > <http://www.linkedin.com/in/richardwallis> >>> > > > > > Twitter: @rjw >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > >>> > >>> >>>
Received on Wednesday, 13 June 2018 21:09:42 UTC