W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > public-schemaorg@w3.org > November 2016

Re: Question on expressing translations of terms

From: Richard Wallis <richard.wallis@dataliberate.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2016 00:06:30 +0000
Message-ID: <CAD47Kz5FWNe=zBj1VPpda3HSupHOD0UNqTm0upjGyBepL==R4A@mail.gmail.com>
To: Felix Sasaki <fsasaki@w3.org>
Cc: Alexandre Bertails <bertails@apple.com>, Thomas Francart <thomas.francart@sparna.fr>, Dan Brickley <danbri@google.com>, "schema.org Mailing List" <public-schemaorg@w3.org>
Scanning your slides I am not clear (in the Schema.org markup) if you are
describing two separate things the contents of which are in different
languages or a single thing with names in different languages.

The definition of inLanguage <http://schema.org/inLanguage> indicates “The
language of the content..”

If it is the former, they are not the same thing and they probably should
be related with translationOfWork <http://bib.schema.org/translationOfWork> and
WorkTranslation <http://bib.schema.org/workTranslation> not *sameAs.*

If it is the latter, surely the use of two *name* properties, one in each
language, with language labels would suffice.

~Richard.

Richard Wallis
Founder, Data Liberate
http://dataliberate.com
Linkedin: http://www.linkedin.com/in/richardwallis
Twitter: @rjw

On 21 November 2016 at 14:27, Felix Sasaki <fsasaki@w3.org> wrote:

> Hello Alexandre and all,
>
> I had the pleasure to explore the topic of how to express translation of
> terms further in a presentation at the Tekom / TCWorld conference. See the
> announcement and slides (including an extended abstract at the end) here
>
> http://conferences.tekom.de/conference/tcworld16/
> conference-program/conference-program/program/sv_1486_IN21/
> http://conferences.tekom.de/fileadmin/tx_doccon/slides/
> 1486_Summit_Meeting_Search_Meets_Terminology.pdf
>
> The presentation was well received and it seems that there is an interest
> in using existing terminology assets to foster cross lingual search use
> cases. It would be interesting to explore this further in the context of
> Schema.org <http://schema.org>
>
> Any comments on this topic & the presentation slides are very welcome.
>
> Kind regards,
>
> Felix
>
> Am 17.03.2016 um 15:35 schrieb Alexandre Bertails <bertails@apple.com>:
>
> Felix,
>
> We are currently trying to solve a very similar problem. My plan is to use
> schema:sameAs for that. Applied to your example:
>
> {
>  "@id": "http://example.com/my-term-data-base-entry-1",
>  "@type": "schema:Term",
>  "schema:inLanguage": "en",
>  "schema:name": "screwdriver",
>  "schema:sameAs": {
>    "@id": "http://example.com/my-term-data-base-entry-2",
>    "schema:inLanguage": "de",
>    "schema:name": "schraubendreher"
>  }
> }
>
> Conceptually, the 2 entities really denote the same thing. Granted, our
> usage of schema:sameAs is not exactly what's described in
> https://schema.org/sameAs but there are reasons why we prefer to stay
> within the schema.org realm. And owl:sameAs would bring a lot of baggage
> with it which we are not interested in.
>
> Also, I think schema:translation would be too specific. Personally, I
> would be happy if the definition of schema:sameAs was less about web pages.
>
> Best,
> Alexandre
>
> On Mar 17, 2016, at 6:22 AM, Felix Sasaki <fsasaki@w3.org> wrote:
>
>
> Am 17.03.2016 um 13:56 schrieb Thomas Francart <thomas.francart@sparna.fr
> >:
>
> I don't think the original question was about translating the terms of
> schema.org itself (classes and properties); it was about the possibility
> to describe terms/words, similar to what SKOS-XL proposes.
> For me the original proposition makes sense, it would allow to state
> things like "this term/word A is used for a large public", "that other
> word/term B is used by the scientific community" "the words/terms A and B
> are both used to refer to concept C", "word/term A is an acronym of
> word/term B", "word/term D is slang, while word/term E is formal language",
> etc.
>
>
> Yes, that was the original question. A further comment below.
>
>
> Thomas
>
> 2016-03-17 13:38 GMT+01:00 Dan Brickley <danbri@google.com>:
> Yes, I tend to agree with Chaals & Richard here: for translated labels
> of structured data vocabulary terms (schema.org's and others), we
> should look towards the underlying W3C standards: RDF/S and perhaps
> sometimes SKOS, SKOS-XL. It is usual to stick to a single URL for
> types and properties rather than proliferate them by having different
> URLs for each language.
>
>
>
> In my use case (see below) I need to differentiate uniquely (= via URIS)
> between
>
> 1) terms in language X,Y,Z
> 2) common = language agnostic concepts that they denote
> 3) domains (= topics) that they belong too
>
> Richard wrote :
>
> [
> As to proposing a general purpose term definition / relationship structure
> such as you describe, I can see the need for such a capability but wonder
> if in most cases SKOS-like existing solutions would suffice for detailed
> description.  Whereas I would require some convincing as to the potential
> take up in a broad general purpose vocabulary such as Schema.org
> <http://schema.org>.
> ]
>
> The use case is a Japanese buyer of items who knows how something is
> expressed in his language. He wants to be able to make a search for
> スクリュードライバー
> and say: give me pages about screwdrivers that express the concept of a
> screwdriver in my domain and denotes the concept I want to buy (= take up
> the information provided by 1,2,3 above). The buyer does not want to buy
> screwdrivers in general, and he does not want to buy everything with the
> label screwdriver in english; but he wants to be a specific screwdriver in
> a given domain, e.g. automative manufacturing. The buyer also wants to take
> variants of how terms are expressed into account, e.g. differences in
> spelling, abbreviations etc.
>
> Such searches are quite common in search of multilingual terminology data
> bases. In these data bases terms are uniquely identified first class
> citizens. More and more companies put such data bases on the web but don’t
> have a way yet to do that with structured HTML markup. So search for
> multilingual terminology, taking 1,2,3 into account, is not yet possible on
> the Web.
>
> - Felix
>
>
>
> Here is an example btw of RDFa+RDFS definitions that do this, from
> https://github.com/schemaorg/schemaorg/blob/sdo-deimos/
> data/l10n/zh-cn/schema_org_zhcn.html
>
> <div typeof="rdfs:Class" resource="http://schema.org/Audience">
> <span class="h" property="rdfs:label">Audience</span>
> <span class="h" property="rdfs:label" xml:lang="zh-cn">听众</span>
> <span property="rdfs:comment">Intended audience for an item, i.e. the
> group for whom the item was created.</span>
> <span property="rdfs:comment" xml:lang="zh-cn">听众,观众, 读者</span>
> <span>Subclass of: <a property="rdfs:subClassOf"
> href="http://schema.org/Intangible">Intangible</a></span>
> </div>
>
> Does this approach do what you have in mind, Felix?
>
> Dan
>
> On 17 March 2016 at 10:56, Richard Wallis
> <richard.wallis@dataliberate.com> wrote:
>
> Not sure I understand your definition of a term, but the ability to handle
> names, or any other text based properties, of things in multiple languages
> is already possible:
>
> {
>
>  "@context": “http://schema.org/”,
>
>  "@id": "http://example.com/my-term-data-base-entry-1",
>
>  "@type": "schema:Thing",
>
>  "schema:name": [
>
>    {
>
>      "@language": "en",
>
>      "@value": "screwdriver"
>
>    },
>
>    {
>
>      "@language": "de",
>
>      "@value": "schraubendreher"
>
>    }
>
>  ]
>
> }
>
>
> or in RDFa:
>
>
> <div typeof="schema:Thing"
> about="http://example.com/my-term-data-base-entry-1">
>    <div property="schema:name" xml:lang="en" content="screwdriver"></div>
>    <div property="schema:name" xml:lang="de"
> content="schraubendreher"></div>
>  </div>
>
>
> ~Richard
>
> Richard Wallis
> Founder, Data Liberate
> http://dataliberate.com
> Linkedin: http://www.linkedin.com/in/richardwallis
> Twitter: @rjw
>
> On 17 March 2016 at 09:04, Felix Sasaki <fsasaki@w3.org> wrote:
>
>
> Hi all,
>
> It seems that schema.org as of writing would not allow to express the
> relation for terms „A is a translation from B“ or „A is an abbreviation
> from
> B“. It is already possible to express that A is translation of B, see
>
> http://bib.schema.org/translationOfWork
>
> but this is specific to works, not translated terms. Would the below make
> sense? It is adapted from
> https://schema.org/translator
>
> note: schema:Term and schema:translation do not exist in schema.org, I
> made them up for the example.
>
> {
>  "@id": "http://example.com/my-term-data-base-entry-1",
>  "@type": "schema:Term",
>  "schema:inLanguage": "en",
>  "schema:name": "screwdriver",
>  "schema:translation": {
>    "@id": "http://example.com/my-term-data-base-entry-2",
>    "schema:inLanguage": "de",
>    "schema:name": "schraubendreher"
>  }
> }
>
> - Felix
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Thomas Francart - SPARNA
> Web de données | Architecture de l'information | Accès aux connaissances
> blog : blog.sparna.fr, site : sparna.fr, linkedin : fr.linkedin.com/in/
> thomasfrancart
> tel :  +33 (0)6.71.11.25.97, skype : francartthomas
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Received on Tuesday, 22 November 2016 00:07:05 UTC

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