RE: Suggestion for new category

Taking Jacob's concern to slightly higher level of abstraction:
 
We've been running up against questions regarding where to describe attributes of the 'production'. The play Macbeth is clearly a CreativeWork, and is a likely object of a TheaterEvent workPerformed predicate.  A single performance of MacBeth, or arguably a continuous run of performances of MacBeth at the same venue, is a TheaterEvent.  But there have been numerous productions of MacBeth which are developed over time (i.e., not just an event but a series of events often in different venues) that don't seem to fit Event, but also don't seem to fit CreativeWork and don’t seem quite right as object of workPerformed predicate.  There is a similar issue for Dance productions, musical productions, etc.  Comparing the list of CreativeWork sub-classes and Event sub-classes suggest a certain arbitrariness about which kinds of performance productions are Events and which are CreativeWork.  There are seeming overlaps – e.g., http://schema.org/actor  (property used with sub-classes of CreativeWork) vs. http://schema.org/performer (property used with Events). If there is a consistent distinction it seems to be availability of a MediaObject representation of the performance – commonplace for TV episodes, Radio episodes, Movies, etc., but of course this distinction is increasingly artificial as stills, audio and videos of plays, dances, music performances are increasingly commonplace.  
 
For now we're tending to use TheaterEvent rather than try to create a new CreativeWork sub-class, which does not seem the right solution at least for our  use case.  But perhaps there needs to be a new sub-class of Thing which would be better for expressing attributes of a production of a CreativeWork?
 
-Tim Cole
 
 
From: jgjett@gmail.com [mailto:jgjett@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Jacob Jett
Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2016 9:26 AM
To: Richard Wallis <richard.wallis@dataliberate.com>
Cc: public-schemaorg@w3.org; Han, Myung-Ja <mhan3@illinois.edu>; Sarol, Maria Janina <mjsarol@illinois.edu>; Kinnaman, Alex Olivia <kinnama2@illinois.edu>; Cole, Timothy W <t-cole3@illinois.edu>
Subject: Re: Suggestion for new category
 
Sorry, I think you misunderstand. I get how to attach the contributors to the various structures. That's not so difficult. The question is how to attach the contributions?
 
For example, I have the stage notes for a particular performance of Vanity Fair. How does that attach to the Theatrical Event? Simply saying that the stage notes are 'isPartOf' completely loses the role that the stage notes play. There seems to be a need for some additional properties (which is the case anyway, as there is no difference between a Theatrical Event and an Event).
 
_____________________________________________________
Jacob Jett
Research Assistant
Center for Informatics Research in Science and Scholarship
The Graduate School of Library and Information Science
University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
501 E. Daniel Street, MC-493, Champaign, IL 61820-6211 USA
(217) 244-2164
jjett2@illinois.edu <mailto:jjett2@illinois.edu> 
 
 
On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 9:19 AM, Richard Wallis <richard.wallis@dataliberate.com <mailto:richard.wallis@dataliberate.com> > wrote:
You are right to identify the differences between ‘the play’, productions of the play, and performances of the production. 
 
Much of the structure of this is availably via CreativeWork properties such as hasPart, isPartOf, exampleOfWork, workExample, plus the temporal aspects of Role that would allow you to associate individual contributors to specific stages of the process.
 
Based upon established Schema.org patterns, I would advise separating the event (place/time) aspects from the Creative aspects.
 
As to associating elements of the process that contributed to the combined work, but not part of the final play - I think that is down to how you describe those individual preproduction parts. 
 
Working on some examples as was done for Books, Articles, TVSeries & TVSeason, etc. would help work through these questions and help support a proposal for a Play type
 
~Richard.
 


Richard Wallis
Founder, Data Liberate
http://dataliberate.com <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__dataliberate.com&d=BQMFaQ&c=8hUWFZcy2Z-Za5rBPlktOQ&r=npggDwlZ6PziBzPBZthSo0f8iGOgRMf9ulO6o4WwfiA&m=n11esY2fXcOQItBGgO6ia9eUAptQ7Jash073SxzJ8To&s=HecD9Qh56rVFMDyIln7qEsoeJ2KAMBr-a5HBKR_xQHI&e=> 
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On 3 March 2016 at 14:54, Jacob Jett <jjett2@illinois.edu <mailto:jjett2@illinois.edu> > wrote:
That makes perfect sense. However, if we go the 'isPartOf' route don't we loose the contextual component that set and costume sketches and photographs play in the development of the production? I.e., they are not parts of the finished work -- the play -- per se but are deeply involved in the evolution of a performance of the final product. 
 
Wouldn't it make more sense if they were parts of particular Theatrical Events, as just like the performers of said events, costumes and set designs can also vary from performance to performance of the same play.


_____________________________________________________ 
Jacob Jett
Research Assistant
Center for Informatics Research in Science and Scholarship
The Graduate School of Library and Information Science
University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
501 E. Daniel Street, MC-493, Champaign, IL 61820-6211 USA
(217) 244-2164 <tel:%28217%29%20244-2164> 
jjett2@illinois.edu <mailto:jjett2@illinois.edu> 
 
On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 8:47 AM, Richard Wallis <richard.wallis@dataliberate.com <mailto:richard.wallis@dataliberate.com> > wrote:
Not wishing to overload CreativeWork in the subtypes department, but ‘Play’ does seem to be an obvious missing candidate.   
 
I don’t really think the ’Stage’ qualification is necessary. Most of the properties you reference would be inherited from CreativeWork.  The exceptions being some of the more specific contributors such as StageDesigner and WadrobeKeeper.   These could be handled as per some of the roles in the movie industry are - using the Role <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__schema.org_Role&d=BQMFaQ&c=8hUWFZcy2Z-Za5rBPlktOQ&r=npggDwlZ6PziBzPBZthSo0f8iGOgRMf9ulO6o4WwfiA&m=5tMndZFeOWtA7vej-9XwBZdhVTmH18Mj5t17yfmtpCo&s=5O53HrBuYZ2xJ8k-qXNdxOWXiTOMowrhAlGWPP953a8&e=>  construct. 
 
You could then connect the individual performances to the Play using TheaterEvent if appropriate using the workPerformed property.
 
On 3 March 2016 at 14:27, Jacob Jett <jjett2@illinois.edu <mailto:jjett2@illinois.edu> > wrote:
We have a similar use case but also need to account for things like costume sketches and photographs (and same for storyboards, set designs, etc.). Should we just extend the TheaterEvent with new predicates? 
 
Most if not all of those things would be CreativeWorks or subtypes thereof, in their own right and could be considered ‘isPartOf’ of the play.
 
~Richard
 
On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 8:17 AM, Tim Turner <tturner@flumc.org <mailto:tturner@flumc.org> > wrote:
There is a TheaterEvent that could be expanded from this list.
https://schema.org/TheaterEvent <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__schema.org_TheaterEvent&d=BQMFaQ&c=8hUWFZcy2Z-Za5rBPlktOQ&r=npggDwlZ6PziBzPBZthSo0f8iGOgRMf9ulO6o4WwfiA&m=5tMndZFeOWtA7vej-9XwBZdhVTmH18Mj5t17yfmtpCo&s=aa63bKAMCvVjSnfsJFaXpaSAqbwat8spFGjc7owW85E&e=>  
 
From: Webmestre Globetrottoirs [mailto:webmaster@globetrottoirs.com <mailto:webmaster@globetrottoirs.com> ] 
Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2016 1:05 PM
To: public-schemaorg@w3.org <mailto:public-schemaorg@w3.org> 
Subject: Suggestion for new category
 
Hello,
 
I am working on a theater group website.
 
When trying to code micro-data, I felt that the following schema is missing.
 
In the “Creativework” schema, could we add “TheaterPlay”, which would have the following properties :
 
Name – expected type : text – description : the name of the play
Author – expected type : text – description : the author of the play
Director – expected type : text – description : the person who directed the play
Actor – expected type : text – description : the actors of the play
Character – expected type : text – description : the characters of the play
Composer – expected type : text – description : the composer of the music used in the play
Genre – expected type : text – description : the genre of the play (eg : musical theatre, gesture theatre, pantomime, …)
StageDesigner – expected type : text – description : the person who designed the settings
WardrobeKeeper – expected type : text – description : the person who designed or created the wardrobe.
 
It could be also usefull to create schema related to dance or mime, etc…
 
Do you think it is possible to do this ?
 
Thank you for your answer.
 
Sincerely.
 
Stéphane Reboul