Re: CreativeWork relationships

Hi Antoine,

On 21 Oct 2013, at 22:19, Antoine Isaac <aisaac@few.vu.nl> wrote:

> About creative work relationships, first I'd like to second the idea of not introducing the inverse properties in the list for now. Better keep it slim!
> 

I agree, at least starting, slim is better.  I believe, especially in the case of web page markup for resources distributed across the web, there would be benefit in keeping both of our group's original proposals of exampleOfWork and workExample but we should be minimising inverse property proposals.
> 
> Second, I've seen that Richard has included isRepresentationOf (thanks!). But he has not included some relations, which I think could be useful.
> Because they were hidden inside the line for edm:isSimilarTo, I want to check wheter their omission was on purpose ;-)

No intention in the omission.  I just quickly dragged together a list for discussion.

> And I give more details on the motivations for them in EDM:
> 
> - inclusion/incorporation becomes important when creation happens to be more and more about re-use and re-mix (think about the growing popularity of Creative Commons)
> 
> - succession has plenty cases, either in the 'objective' sequence between parts of a work (e.g. Star Wars III follows Star Wars VI) and the one in a plot (Star Wars IV is the sequel of Star Wars III). I'm actually surprised none wouldn't be already in schema.org. Or perhaps it is hoped there's always an RDF list that will be interpreted in the right way? Hmm, perhaps it's not so much a surprise, given that after the basic part-of link is still not in schema.org for Creative Works…
> 

Both of these seem more to do with partOf and Collection, which we have proposed already.  

In the light of the recent discussions on public vocabs around ordered lists, I was considering revisiting our Collection proposal so that it could cover multipart works, Collections, Ordered Collections, and Series etc.

As we are looking to start approaching serials, journals (e & print), articles, etc., some work in this area may give us some base type(s) to extend in this area.

> 
> Finally, reacting on the discussion on isBasedOn vs. isRepresentationOf
> My understanding of isBased on was perhaps more exclusive than your. I.e., I though that
> http://europeana.eu/portal/record/9200103/ark__12148_btv1b9033415w.html
> is not really based on Mona Lisa, though it clearly represents it.
> (ok, you may say this picture is not really a creative work, but I just don't have any time to search for them :-( )
> 

I agree with your reasoning.  I think there is sufficient differentiation between a representation of something, and being basedOn that something to warrant the extra property.

A photograph of my grandson I would suggest is a representation of him, whereas West Side Story is basedOn Romeo & Juliet.

~Richard.

> Best,
> 
> Antoine
> 
> 
> 
>> Hi all,
>> 
>> For what it's worth, here are examples of 'core' properties that can hold between Creative work in our data model in the Europeana initiative:
>> -- dc:subject and edm:isRepresentationOf for "aboutness" links (Mona Lisa and a historical picture of Mona Lisa that represents it)
>> -- edm:realizes, which is quite FRBR-related (An item of the Gutenberg’s edition realizes the Bible)
>> -- edm:isSimilarTo: covering true and "questionable" cases of derivation in the FRBR sense. Including sub-properties edm:isDerivativeOf (for real derivation cases like re-working, extension--this is a sub-property of dcterms:isVersionOf, targeted perhaps rather at CreativeWorks) , edm:incorporated (for inclusion / re-use of works within others) and edm:isSuccessorOf (for "sequels")
>> 
>> I can contribute more documentation and example for these, but the mail would be long then. So will wait till there's interest. For the curious, however, you can have a look at our quite dry PDF reference at [1].
>> 
>> Then you can have more general links (dc:relation), general part-whole relation (dcterms:hasPart), citation (dcterms:references). These ones are clearly in schema.org already.
>> 
>> @Chaals: the criteria for judging what counts what as an intellectual work, and thus a derivation, a version, or a mere change of format, are very fuzzy. I'm not sure we can give one answer. E.g. for translators of historic texts a translation would surely count as a creative work, and what is a good translation is a matter of research-level debates. For more recent book publishing cases, the translation may not be such a big deal... but not always: in French the first translation of Edgar Poe was done by Charles Baudelaire, and it is acknowledged an important work for the later fame of both authors.
>> 
>> Things may be more straightforward for format-specific variants, as you write: "resource that is an attempt to adapt as literally as possible in a different format", as in accessibility scenarios.
>> For this a property like dcterms:hasFormat could be used. And I think the different variations should have their different URIs. Maybe one want to serve a common access URI for them (say, typed as an OAI-ORE Aggregation [2]) but that's a story slightly different than creating the RDF graph for these different versions, their attributes and the links between them, which needs separate URIs.
>> 
>> Cheers,
>> 
>> Antoine
>> 
>> [1] http://pro.europeana.eu/documents/900548/0d0f6ec3-1905-4c4f-96c8-1d817c03123c
>> [2] http://www.openarchives.org/ore/primer
>> 
>>> Hi Richard,
>>> 
>>> On Mon, 14 Oct 2013 00:15:43 +0200, Wallis,Richard <Richard.Wallis@oclc.org> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> One of the topics we have discussed in the SchemaBibEx group has been properties to describe some relationships between CreativeWorks.
>>>> 
>>>> In several recent threads on public-vocabs there has also been mention of relationships between CreativeWork such as adaptionOf, isBasedOn, etc.
>>>> 
>>>> It is clear therefore that this topic is more broadly relevant than the bibliographic focus of SchemaBibEx
>>> 
>>> Yep.
>>> 
>>>> To help the discussion in this area I have produced a small list of these proposed properties for CreativeWork, which have CreativeWork as a range.
>>>> 
>>>> As it was assembled by trawling threads which I remembered included such mentions, it is almost certainly not a comprehensive list, it also includes some that are very similar in intention.
>>> 
>>> Yes. In particular, I have two different sets of use cases in mind. One revolves around understanding that something is like something else, but really not the same.
>>> 
>>> West Side Story, the Musical, is a version of Romeo and Juliet. Is this what you mean by "isBasedOn"?
>>> 
>>> West Side Story, the movie, is a version of the Musical, but there is a change to make the format. Is this a format of West Side Story, and is using a Wikipedia entry URL as the source a sensible thing to do?
>>> 
>>> Blade Runner is an adaptation of Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep, and often called the book of the movie. But it is not really as close to the original as West Side Story is to Romeo and Juliet. Film adaptations are often pretty different from their original sources. Shirley Valentine is another example of a movie and play that are not all that close to each other, despite being very recongisably the same work.
>>> 
>>> Romeo and Juliet, the Baz Luhrmann movie, is a version of Romeo and Juliet in a different format. Is this a workExample?
>>> 
>>> There are also various text versions of Romeo and Juliet. I'm guessing they are all candidates for workExample/exampleOfWork.
>>> 
>>> The other set of use cases are where there is no clear "original".
>>> 
>>> For example, I write a new, interactive internet site telling a story about swans and ostriches. It is natively video, or text, or text and audio, and so on - you decide what pieces you actually view.
>>> 
>>> I could describe the resource as having multiple versions, each with different characteristics (format, language, ...) but the URL is the same. I think I want to use named graphs to distinguish these cases. (I want to do the same thing to handle the fact that there are effectively multiple versions of the resource with different accessibility characteristics, but the URL where you get the resource is the same).
>>> 
>>> I think it would be useful to flesh out my use cases a bit more, so they can be worked up into concrete examples with answers. But so far I don't see:
>>> 
>>> - How do I handle the distinction between "X is an original. Y is based somehow on X" and "X has multiple representations because it is true multimedia"?
>>> - What is the difference between a play or film that is an adaptation of a book, and something that is just a retelling of the same story? How does that compare with a resource that is an attempt to adapt as literally as possible in a different format? (And how does that compare with translation - is the best translation of the Odyssey alliterative verse or blank verse or hexameter or prose)?
>>> 
>>> cheers
>>> 
>>> Chaals
>>> 
>>>> Comments on the list, omissions, suggestions are invited so that we can get some consensus around a hopefully small set, to cover many circumstances, to propose as additions to CreativeWork.
>>>> 
>>>> The list is currently hosted on the SchemaBibEx Wiki: http://www.w3.org/community/schemabibex/wiki/Schema_CreativeWork_Relationships
>>>> 
>>>> ~Richard.
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
>> 
> 
> 
>

Received on Tuesday, 22 October 2013 08:57:43 UTC