Re: InstanceOf/derivativeOf

I still can't help thinking that schema:model works for connecting item to manifestation and on up the chain. That's what it's for and that's how publishers should think of it. It's hard to sympathize with our desire to dumb this down to a term that librarians like. If we can find such a term, that will be great, but stealing "instance" will make it all that much harder to explain modeling to people who attach the letters "record" to the end of every noun. :-(

Jeff

Sent from my iPad

On Mar 24, 2013, at 8:34 PM, "Wallis,Richard" <Richard.Wallis@oclc.org> wrote:

> I am not a massive fan of instanceOf and hasInstance either. 
> 
> But applying my test to creativeInstanceOf we get:
> Story-in-English is a creativeInstanceOf Story  - That sort of works
> Story-in-book-in-library is a creativeInstanceOf Story-in-pbk-book – That doesn't really work.  Just stocking in a library is not really a creative act.
> The works themselves are creative, not the relationships between them.
> 
> ~Richard.
> 
> 
> 
> From: "Young,Jeff (OR)" <jyoung@oclc.org>
> Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2013 19:47:58 -0400
> To: Richard Wallis <richard.wallis@oclc.org>
> Cc: Antoine Isaac <aisaac@few.vu.nl>, <public-schemabibex@w3.org>
> Subject: Re: InstanceOf/derivativeOf
> 
> I could have beec clearer, but"isRecordOf" was intended as a joke.
> 
> Regarding, "isInstanceOf", I'm reminded that GoodRelations has gr:Individual, which is disorienting for reasons similar to "instance". When GoodRelations integrated with Schema.org, this got translated to schema:IndividualProduct, which is less offensive. Perhaps we should consider a similar hair split in this case with schemap:creativeInstanceOf.
> 
> I have to say I absolutely hate instanceOf.
> 
> Jeff
> 
> Sent from my iPad
> 
> On Mar 24, 2013, at 7:28 PM, "Wallis,Richard" <Richard.Wallis@oclc.org> wrote:
> 
>> My formatting got screwed by the email system, so I attach a screenshot of
>> what I intended.
>> 
>> ~Richard.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On 24/03/2013 23:14, "Richard Wallis" <richard.wallis@oclc.org> wrote:
>> 
>> >I tend to hold the same suspicions as Antoine as to the content of those
>> >'few drinks'. I believe your wife was nearer with oneOf.  However, I'm not
>> >sure either convey the meaning of the generic relationship we are trying
>> >to achieve.
>> >
>> >Personally the test I apply to these is to imagine a set of 3 or more
>> >CreativeWorks thus:
>> >
>> >      >hasInstance           >hasInstance         >hasInstance
>> >>hasInstance
>> >     /            \         /             \      /             \
>> >/             \
>> >Story           Story-in-English       Story-in-Book
>> >Story-in-pbk-book     story-in-book-in-library
>> >     \             /        \             /      \             /
>> >\             /
>> >      isInstanceOf<          isInstanceOf<        isInstanceOf<
>> >isInstanceOf<
>> >
>> >I know this is stretching it a bit, but doing this tends to highlight
>> >where focussing in on individual use-cases hides where things are not
>> >appropriate elsewhere.  In the above example I believe 'instance' works as
>> >a broad compromise, where as 'record', 'derivation', 'expression',
>> >'realisation', and others seem to possibly work better in one area but
>> >much worse in others.
>> >
>> >~Richard.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >On 24/03/2013 12:25, "Young,Jeff (OR)" <jyoung@oclc.org> wrote:
>> >
>> >>The thing I like about UNIMARC Authorities is that they have the notion
>> >>of a "primary entity" which is the thing the record represents. If you
>> >>look in the same places in MARC21 Authorities you'll find a tautology.
>> >>:-/
>> >>
>> >>Sent from my iPad
>> >>
>> >>On Mar 24, 2013, at 7:58 AM, "Antoine Isaac" <aisaac@few.vu.nl> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> Not sure I prefer these ones...
>> >>>
>> >>> PS: "record", really? Did your glasses contain MARC brandy? ;-)
>> >>>(https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marc_%28eau-de-vie%29)
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>> I described the general situation to my wife and she suggested the
>> >>>>alternative: "oneOf". Hmm.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> After a few more drinks, we finally agreed on "isRecordOf". ;-)
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Sent from my iPad
>> >>>>
>> >>>> On Mar 22, 2013, at 8:26 AM, "Wallis,Richard"<Richard.Wallis@oclc.org>
>> >>>> wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>>> I have renamed the Work-Instance proposal to a more generic
>> >>>>>CreativeWork
>> >>>>>Relationships<http://www.w3.org/community/schemabibex/wiki/CreativeWor

>> >>>>>k
>> >>>>>_Relationships> to remove the associations with those words in FRBR,
>> >>>>>BIBFRAME etc.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> In yesterday's meeting we suggested that instanceOf&  hasInstance
>> >>>>>should be renamed to derivativeOf&  hasDerivative.  However discussion
>> >>>>>on list has moved away from that idea so I have left it as is for the
>> >>>>>moment.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> I suggest we try some more examples and look at the wording.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> I think we have general agreement about the need for these
>> >>>>>properties. It is the names we need to settle, and appropriate
>> >>>>>examples to test them against and use for explanation in the proposal.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> ~Richard
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> 
>>