- From: Shlomo Sanders <Shlomo.Sanders@exlibrisgroup.com>
- Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2013 11:57:32 +0000
- To: "<vls@tusco.net>" <vls@tusco.net>
- CC: Niklas Lindström <lindstream@gmail.com>, "kcoyle@kcoyle.net" <kcoyle@kcoyle.net>, "public-schemabibex@w3.org" <public-schemabibex@w3.org>
Is there a target date for the proposal? Thanks, Shlomo Sent from my iPad On Mar 22, 2013, at 12:45, "Tom Adamich" <vls@tusco.net> wrote: > I agree with Niklas that alignment with not only bibliographic/library > contexts but with Schema.org and semantic architecture-based concepts should > be an essential part of our efforts here. Isn't the goal of all of this to > enable the library community to have a presence in the linked data web > environment? In that case, let's take a lesson from the enterprise world > where granularity of terminology may be important, but not at the expense of > timing and product launch. Thus, our due diligence here will be beneficial > in the end but should not hinder progress. > > ...Will enjoy when all of this is compiled in an ontology. > > Tom > > Tom Adamich, MLS > President > Visiting Librarian Service > P.O. Box 932 > New Philadelphia, OH 44663 > 330-364-4410 > vls@tusco.net > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Niklas Lindström [mailto:lindstream@gmail.com] > Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2013 9:28 PM > To: kcoyle@kcoyle.net > Cc: public-schemabibex@w3.org > Subject: Re: Work-instance and isDerivativeOf > > Hi Karen, > > Indeed, those are important points (both the difference in primary meanings > and that no word's going to be perfect). Also in Swedish (my native tongue), > "realiserar" has the primary meaning of "making real". > I furthermore agree that derivative doesn't mean the same as instance. > > I think the most important part is to strive for a term which is common in > as many bibliographic/library contexts as possible, and likely to endure. > Given the desired(?) movement from WEMI categorization towards the simpler > work-instance notion of BibFrame (whose basic components certainly seem more > fit for schema.org), how likely does it seem that this notion of "instance" > will prevail (at least longer than "manifestation")? I am fairly new to this > context (professionally), so I cannot judge the stability of these terms and > concepts. > > I can imagine that "instanceOf" is general enough to work. (The schema:model > property does seem to be quite related, albeit belonging specifically to the > http://schema.org/Product class (which reasonably intersects with the > Instance notion, but is a much more specific class, not the least > culturally).) > > Should the property work on multiple levels - i.e. can you have instances of > instances? That might make it easier to maintain a "work/expression" > difference, if that is desired; and to relate "manifestations" to "items". > Also, it should reasonably not be applicable on the same level, right? That > is, where relations like derivation, adaptation or translation (and > commonEndeavor) applies. > > An alternative I kind of like is "embodies", as in "to give a tangible, > bodily, or concrete form" (see e.g. [1], [2]). > > But among the presented alternatives, I suppose that "instanceOf" has the > least variations in this context, at least connotationally. > > Cheers, > Niklas > > [1]: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/embody > [2]: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/embody > > > On Thu, Mar 21, 2013 at 10:11 PM, Karen Coyle <kcoyle@kcoyle.net> wrote: >> It occurred to me after the call that in some languages the concept of >> "realization of" == frbr:Manifestation. It means to bring something >> into existence, thus, make it "manifest." Because the verb to realize" >> has a different primary meaning in English (similar to "come to an >> understanding >> of") it rarely gets used this way, but I think the meaning is what we >> are aiming at. >> >> Larousee online has: >> >> - Faire passer à l'état de réalité concrète ce qui n'était que virtualité > : >> Des désirs difficiles à réaliser. >> >> - Concrétiser quelque chose : Cette maison réalise son rêve. >> >> >> My Italian dictionary has: >> >> - realizzare: portare a compimento; concretizzare >> >> Thus the concepts are: bring to completion; and make concrete or >> physically real. >> >> This is one of those times when English is just soooooo frustrating. >> (Some of you may have more of these times that I do, I realize :-)!). >> >> In English, "derive" usually means to change something, to "adapt" it, >> not to make an instance of it. That seems to be the sense in the EDM > vocabulary. >> >> That said, since no word is going to be perfect... I think we're back >> to Instance unless folks think that we can sneak in "realizationOf". >> Or maybe just switch to French when it's convenient. ;-) >> >> kc >> >> >> On 3/21/13 11:16 AM, Antoine Isaac wrote: >>> >>> Dear all, >>> >>> Following the discussion we had today on the work-instance >>> relationship [1] and the proposal to label it with something like >>> "derivative", I copy below some definition bits for the property >>> isDerivativeOf from the Europeana Data Model [2]. >>> Not that I want to push it by all means. Maybe you'll want a >>> different definition. As long as it works... But I don't see why I'd >>> conceal it, if there's something to be re-used instead of this group >>> working hard to re-invent his own words. >>> >>> I'm going to ask the people in the task force I've mentioned if they >>> can send museum or archive examples using this property. >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Antoine >>> >>> [1] http://www.w3.org/community/schemabibex/wiki/Work-Instance >>> [2] http://pro.europeana.eu/edm-documentation >>> >>> ========== >>> >>> Definition: "This property [...] relates a resource to another one, >>> obtained by reworking, reducing, expanding, parts or the whole >>> contents of the former, and possibly adding some minor parts. >>> Versions have an even narrower meaning, in that it requires common >>> identity between the related resources. Translations, summaries, >>> abstractions etc. do not qualify as versions, but do qualify as > derivatives." >>> >>> Obligation & Occurrence: A resource may be a derivative of to 0 to >>> many resources. Conversely, a resource may have 0 to many resources >>> that are derivative of its. >>> >>> Example: The Italian translation of Moby Dick is a derivation of the >>> original work. >>> >>> Rationale: This property enables associating resources that are one >>> the derivation of the other. This is required since Europeana may >>> collect descriptions about resources and their derivations. It also >>> supports browsing of resources by derivation. Finally, it allows the >>> integration of all properties used in content providers' descriptions >>> that capture the notion of derivation in the sense outlined above, >>> such as those capturing versioning, translations and abstractions. To >>> this end, any such properties should be declared to be a (direct or >>> indirect) sub-property of edm:isDerivativeOf. >> >> -- >> Karen Coyle >> kcoyle@kcoyle.net http://kcoyle.net >> ph: 1-510-540-7596 >> m: 1-510-435-8234 >> skype: kcoylenet > >
Received on Friday, 22 March 2013 11:58:02 UTC