Re: audiobook options in objects

It wasn't clear if you thought additionalType was somehow secondary or not. It seems not, so no need to quarrel about it.

Using the permutations of creative work and product isn't how we've tended to imagine the FRBR hierarchy and content vs carrier, so it shouldn't be surprising if this solution requires some justification and internal reflection.

Sent from my iPad

On Feb 9, 2013, at 1:57 PM, "Owen Stephens" <owen@ostephens.com> wrote:

> To clarify - I don't have a problem with the use of additionalType generally or in declaring a creativeWork to also be a Product - it just seemed it didn't actually resolve the issue I described. 
> 
> But just feeling my way here so happy if I've misinterpreted how this can work
> 
> Owen
> 
> On 9 Feb 2013, at 18:21, "Young,Jeff (OR)" <jyoung@oclc.org> wrote:
> 
>> Why so much concern about schema:additionalType and Microdata as opposed to rdf:type and RDFa? This isn't an issue from the latter POV. The thing is both types.
>> 
>> Jeff
>> 
>> Sent from my iPad
>> 
>> On Feb 9, 2013, at 1:10 PM, "Owen Stephens" <owen@ostephens.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> Thanks.  Will try to adjust proposal and modelling in this direction
>>> 
>>> The example you've pointed at uses /Product as an 'additionaltype' which doesn't seem right to me - my inclination would be to propose a creative work can be associated with a product in someway. 
>>> 
>>> I see that creativeWork can have an 'offer' associated with it which seems counterintuitive - would be much nicer if this became a link to a product instead? 
>>> 
>>> Feel like my thinking is going round in circles :(
>>> 
>>> Owen
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On 9 Feb 2013, at 16:05, "Young,Jeff (OR)" <jyoung@oclc.org> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Owen,
>>>> 
>>>> I think you're on the right track.
>>>> 
>>>> I would argue that schema:CreativeWork should be used to represent "content" and schema:Product be used to represent "carrier". FRBR Manifestation is then an amalgamation of schema:CreativeWork and schema:ProductModel. FRBR Item would be schema:CreativeWork and schema:IndividualProduct. Our notion of "Holding" would be schema:creativeWork and schema:SomeProducts.
>>>> 
>>>> I believe that Richard started to mock up an example on the wiki.
>>>> 
>>>> http://www.w3.org/community/schemabibex/wiki/Examples/mylib

>>>> 
>>>> Jeff
>>>> 
>>>> Sent from my iPad
>>>> 
>>>> On Feb 9, 2013, at 10:42 AM, "Owen Stephens" <owen@ostephens.com> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> Looking at this again I think what I feel most unhappy with the modelling I've done is:
>>>>> 
>>>>> A) It treats something that is 16 CDs as essentially a single thing (says its a cd containing a 22hr CDDA encoded audio object
>>>>> 
>>>>> B) It conflates the format (cd) with the creative work. This would make it awkward to code a page which listed the work then multiple access options (audio cd, mp3 on physical media, mp3 for download, ogg vorbis for download etc)
>>>>> 
>>>>> If it were just multiple formats for download you could do this adequately using audioObject - but the mix in of physical media stops this.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Being able to this kind of listing seems pretty fundamental - whether for a library or a store.
>>>>> 
>>>>> It might be that this can be achieved by mixing in a schema.org/product? This would make more sense - the cd set is a product, as is the physical media+mp3, as is the mp3 for download.
>>>>> 
>>>>> However not quite sure how to model this right now.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Does my concern make sense?
>>>>> Anyone want to suggest how product would interact here?
>>>>> 
>>>>> I think I'm sticking to a pretty straightforward real world scenario here not just dreaming up an abstract concern?
>>>>> 
>>>>> Owen
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> On 9 Feb 2013, at 03:57, Karen Coyle <kcoyle@kcoyle.net> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> > Great, owen. I'll work on proposal 2 since that seems to be the mostly likely one in my set. I'm not clear about repetition of property names in schema.org -- is it legit to have two schemas that both have a property "isbn"? I believe this was discussed either here or on the public-vocab list, and I was left with the impression that the URI pattern is
>>>>> >
>>>>> > http://schema.org/[property]
>>>>> >
>>>>> > and not
>>>>> >
>>>>> > http://schema.org/Book/[property]
>>>>> > http://schema.org/Audiobook/[property]
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Can anyone confirm? Because that would knock out a couple of the options that are currently on the page.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > kc
>>>>> >
>>>>> > On 2/8/13 3:46 PM, Owen Stephens wrote:
>>>>> >> OK - I've given markup a go for Proposal 5 - not done this before so likely be errors/misconceptions on my part so anyone should feel free to chip in and improve.
>>>>> >> http://www.w3.org/community/schemabibex/wiki/Object_Types#Proposal_5

>>>>> >> Owen
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> Owen Stephens
>>>>> >> Owen Stephens Consulting
>>>>> >> Web: http://www.ostephens.com

>>>>> >> Email: owen@ostephens.com
>>>>> >> Telephone: 0121 288 6936
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> On 8 Feb 2013, at 18:01, Karen Coyle <kcoyle@KCOYLE.NET> wrote:
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>> So many choices! :-) Should the next step be to try to encode a few items and see how it works?
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> Also, the creativeWork "encoding" is *supposed* to be of type MediaObject. Does that make a difference?
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> kc
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> On 2/8/13 7:46 AM, Owen Stephens wrote:
>>>>> >>>> Hi Karen,
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>> I'm inclined to ignore that definition of Media Object :) There is no reason why an Audio-book shouldn't be embedded in a webpage so I wouldn't want to exclude this either)
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>> I think you could make use of the Creative Work property "encoding" rather than making it a type of Media Object - which allows some split of content and carrier? (not wishing to resurrect that discussion!)
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>> This would allow:
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>> Proposal
>>>>> >>>> Thing > CreativeWork > Audiobook
>>>>> >>>> Thing > CreativeWork > Book > Audiobook
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>> New properties for audiobook type
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>>    • readBy -- expected type: Person
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>> Properties likely to be used from Book
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>>    • bookEdition (for abridgement note)
>>>>> >>>>    • isbn
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>> With a separate Media Object to be created and referenced using 'encoding' property from CreativeWork?
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>> I've added as Proposal 4
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>> Owen
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>> Owen Stephens
>>>>> >>>> Owen Stephens Consulting
>>>>> >>>> Web: http://www.ostephens.com

>>>>> >>>> Email: owen@ostephens.com
>>>>> >>>> Telephone: 0121 288 6936
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>> On 8 Feb 2013, at 15:23, Karen Coyle <kcoyle@kcoyle.net> wrote:
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>>> I wrote up three options for audiobook:
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>> http://www.w3.org/community/schemabibex/wiki/Object_Types#AudioBook

>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>> A key question here is whether we can re-use MediaObject, since it is defined as being media embedded in a web page.
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>> kc
>>>>> >>>>> --
>>>>> >>>>> Karen Coyle
>>>>> >>>>> kcoyle@kcoyle.net http://kcoyle.net

>>>>> >>>>> ph: 1-510-540-7596
>>>>> >>>>> m: 1-510-435-8234
>>>>> >>>>> skype: kcoylenet
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> --
>>>>> >>> Karen Coyle
>>>>> >>> kcoyle@kcoyle.net http://kcoyle.net

>>>>> >>> ph: 1-510-540-7596
>>>>> >>> m: 1-510-435-8234
>>>>> >>> skype: kcoylenet
>>>>> >
>>>>> > --
>>>>> > Karen Coyle
>>>>> > kcoyle@kcoyle.net http://kcoyle.net

>>>>> > ph: 1-510-540-7596
>>>>> > m: 1-510-435-8234
>>>>> > skype: kcoylenet
>>>>> >
>>>>> 
>>>>>