Re: audiobook options in objects

I would phrase it as "the thing (eg the book in my hand) is both a creative work (content) and a product (carrier)".

Sent from my iPad

On Feb 9, 2013, at 1:43 PM, "Owen Stephens" <owen@ostephens.com> wrote:

> Because once you've said the creative work is a product it seems to me you've made it concrete? 
> 
> I think it's more generally useful to say there are several products related to a creative work
> 
> In the model where it has an additional type of product I can't see how you would express my scenario of the same audiobook on cd and mp3 except by repeating the creative work?
> 
> Owen
> 
> On 9 Feb 2013, at 18:21, "Young,Jeff (OR)" <jyoung@oclc.org> wrote:
> 
>> Why so much concern about schema:additionalType and Microdata as opposed to rdf:type and RDFa? This isn't an issue from the latter POV. The thing is both types.
>> 
>> Jeff
>> 
>> Sent from my iPad
>> 
>> On Feb 9, 2013, at 1:10 PM, "Owen Stephens" <owen@ostephens.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> Thanks.  Will try to adjust proposal and modelling in this direction
>>> 
>>> The example you've pointed at uses /Product as an 'additionaltype' which doesn't seem right to me - my inclination would be to propose a creative work can be associated with a product in someway. 
>>> 
>>> I see that creativeWork can have an 'offer' associated with it which seems counterintuitive - would be much nicer if this became a link to a product instead? 
>>> 
>>> Feel like my thinking is going round in circles :(
>>> 
>>> Owen
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On 9 Feb 2013, at 16:05, "Young,Jeff (OR)" <jyoung@oclc.org> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Owen,
>>>> 
>>>> I think you're on the right track.
>>>> 
>>>> I would argue that schema:CreativeWork should be used to represent "content" and schema:Product be used to represent "carrier". FRBR Manifestation is then an amalgamation of schema:CreativeWork and schema:ProductModel. FRBR Item would be schema:CreativeWork and schema:IndividualProduct. Our notion of "Holding" would be schema:creativeWork and schema:SomeProducts.
>>>> 
>>>> I believe that Richard started to mock up an example on the wiki.
>>>> 
>>>> http://www.w3.org/community/schemabibex/wiki/Examples/mylib

>>>> 
>>>> Jeff
>>>> 
>>>> Sent from my iPad
>>>> 
>>>> On Feb 9, 2013, at 10:42 AM, "Owen Stephens" <owen@ostephens.com> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> Looking at this again I think what I feel most unhappy with the modelling I've done is:
>>>>> 
>>>>> A) It treats something that is 16 CDs as essentially a single thing (says its a cd containing a 22hr CDDA encoded audio object
>>>>> 
>>>>> B) It conflates the format (cd) with the creative work. This would make it awkward to code a page which listed the work then multiple access options (audio cd, mp3 on physical media, mp3 for download, ogg vorbis for download etc)
>>>>> 
>>>>> If it were just multiple formats for download you could do this adequately using audioObject - but the mix in of physical media stops this.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Being able to this kind of listing seems pretty fundamental - whether for a library or a store.
>>>>> 
>>>>> It might be that this can be achieved by mixing in a schema.org/product? This would make more sense - the cd set is a product, as is the physical media+mp3, as is the mp3 for download.
>>>>> 
>>>>> However not quite sure how to model this right now.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Does my concern make sense?
>>>>> Anyone want to suggest how product would interact here?
>>>>> 
>>>>> I think I'm sticking to a pretty straightforward real world scenario here not just dreaming up an abstract concern?
>>>>> 
>>>>> Owen
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> On 9 Feb 2013, at 03:57, Karen Coyle <kcoyle@kcoyle.net> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> > Great, owen. I'll work on proposal 2 since that seems to be the mostly likely one in my set. I'm not clear about repetition of property names in schema.org -- is it legit to have two schemas that both have a property "isbn"? I believe this was discussed either here or on the public-vocab list, and I was left with the impression that the URI pattern is
>>>>> >
>>>>> > http://schema.org/[property]
>>>>> >
>>>>> > and not
>>>>> >
>>>>> > http://schema.org/Book/[property]
>>>>> > http://schema.org/Audiobook/[property]
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Can anyone confirm? Because that would knock out a couple of the options that are currently on the page.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > kc
>>>>> >
>>>>> > On 2/8/13 3:46 PM, Owen Stephens wrote:
>>>>> >> OK - I've given markup a go for Proposal 5 - not done this before so likely be errors/misconceptions on my part so anyone should feel free to chip in and improve.
>>>>> >> http://www.w3.org/community/schemabibex/wiki/Object_Types#Proposal_5

>>>>> >> Owen
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> Owen Stephens
>>>>> >> Owen Stephens Consulting
>>>>> >> Web: http://www.ostephens.com

>>>>> >> Email: owen@ostephens.com
>>>>> >> Telephone: 0121 288 6936
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> On 8 Feb 2013, at 18:01, Karen Coyle <kcoyle@KCOYLE.NET> wrote:
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>> So many choices! :-) Should the next step be to try to encode a few items and see how it works?
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> Also, the creativeWork "encoding" is *supposed* to be of type MediaObject. Does that make a difference?
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> kc
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> On 2/8/13 7:46 AM, Owen Stephens wrote:
>>>>> >>>> Hi Karen,
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>> I'm inclined to ignore that definition of Media Object :) There is no reason why an Audio-book shouldn't be embedded in a webpage so I wouldn't want to exclude this either)
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>> I think you could make use of the Creative Work property "encoding" rather than making it a type of Media Object - which allows some split of content and carrier? (not wishing to resurrect that discussion!)
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>> This would allow:
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>> Proposal
>>>>> >>>> Thing > CreativeWork > Audiobook
>>>>> >>>> Thing > CreativeWork > Book > Audiobook
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>> New properties for audiobook type
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>>    • readBy -- expected type: Person
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>> Properties likely to be used from Book
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>>    • bookEdition (for abridgement note)
>>>>> >>>>    • isbn
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>> With a separate Media Object to be created and referenced using 'encoding' property from CreativeWork?
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>> I've added as Proposal 4
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>> Owen
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>> Owen Stephens
>>>>> >>>> Owen Stephens Consulting
>>>>> >>>> Web: http://www.ostephens.com

>>>>> >>>> Email: owen@ostephens.com
>>>>> >>>> Telephone: 0121 288 6936
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>> On 8 Feb 2013, at 15:23, Karen Coyle <kcoyle@kcoyle.net> wrote:
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>>> I wrote up three options for audiobook:
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>> http://www.w3.org/community/schemabibex/wiki/Object_Types#AudioBook

>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>> A key question here is whether we can re-use MediaObject, since it is defined as being media embedded in a web page.
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>> kc
>>>>> >>>>> --
>>>>> >>>>> Karen Coyle
>>>>> >>>>> kcoyle@kcoyle.net http://kcoyle.net

>>>>> >>>>> ph: 1-510-540-7596
>>>>> >>>>> m: 1-510-435-8234
>>>>> >>>>> skype: kcoylenet
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> --
>>>>> >>> Karen Coyle
>>>>> >>> kcoyle@kcoyle.net http://kcoyle.net

>>>>> >>> ph: 1-510-540-7596
>>>>> >>> m: 1-510-435-8234
>>>>> >>> skype: kcoylenet
>>>>> >
>>>>> > --
>>>>> > Karen Coyle
>>>>> > kcoyle@kcoyle.net http://kcoyle.net

>>>>> > ph: 1-510-540-7596
>>>>> > m: 1-510-435-8234
>>>>> > skype: kcoylenet
>>>>> >
>>>>> 
>>>>>