Re: Missing Schema.Org properties

Call me naive, but I contend that most bibliographic identifiers are
expressable as URIs (URNs, info-uris, URLs) and that as such they can use
microdata's itemid [1]. Is there really a problem here?

//Ed

[1]
http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/microdata.html#global-identifiers-for-items


On Tue, Dec 4, 2012 at 9:00 AM, Karen Coyle <kcoyle@kcoyle.net> wrote:

>
>
> On 12/4/12 5:01 AM, Shlomo Sanders wrote:
>
>> For what it is worth, I prefer:
>>
>>      ISBN-10<span property=" identifier" typeof="ISBN">0316769487</**
>> span>
>>
>
> I don't think this is correct -- unless you have a property that is
> "ISBN". The "typeof" takes a property, not a value.
>
> Any values have to be outside of the <> unless you use a meta tag. see:
>   http://schema.org/docs/gs.**html#advanced_missing<http://schema.org/docs/gs.html#advanced_missing>
>
> Maybe that's how we'll have to go - with meta.
>
> kc
>
>
>
>  Or
>>      ISBN-10: <span itemprop="isbn">0316769487</**span>
>>
>> These are short and clean.
>> The itemprop="isbn" is not generic since the valid values for itemprop is
>> enumerated?
>> Is that the same issue for typeof?
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Karen Coyle [mailto:kcoyle@kcoyle.net]
>> Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2012 14:58
>> To: public-schemabibex@w3.org
>> Subject: Re: Missing Schema.Org properties
>>
>> Do we need to consider how this might be displayed, since schema.orggenerally wraps around a display? These two options would result in
>> different displays:
>>
>> On 12/4/12 3:33 AM, Shlomo Sanders wrote:
>>
>>> How is this as a schema.org "friendly" version of the ONIX structure:
>>>
>>> <div typeof="identifier">
>>>             <span property=" identifierValue ">0316769487</span>
>>>             <span property=" identifierType ">ISBN</span> </div>
>>>
>>
>> 0316769487 ISBN
>>
>>
>>
>>> Seems too long to me, perhaps:    <span property=" identifier"
>>> typeof="ISBN">0316769487</**span>
>>>
>>
>> 0316769487
>>
>> The schema.org documentation shows a similar example to this latter
>> approach using price:
>>
>>     Price: <span itemprop="price">$6.99</span>
>>     <meta itemprop="priceCurrency" content="USD" />
>>
>> This gets the "$6.99" display for the human reader, plus the currency
>> type for processing.
>>
>> The current use of ISBN is illustrated as:
>>
>>      ISBN-10: <span itemprop="isbn">0316769487</**span>
>>
>> If we go with id type and value, then display is limited by the defined
>> types, unless we leave type very loose. To get the same display as the ISBN
>> immediately above, we'd need:
>>
>> <div itemprop="identifier" itemscope="http://schema.org/**Identifier<http://schema.org/Identifier>
>> ">
>>     <span itemprop="idType">ISBN-10: </span>
>>     <span itemprop="idValue">0316769487<**/span>
>> </div>
>>
>> Does identifier type do what we want if it's not a controlled value? Or
>> would we need a <meta> with a controlled value?
>>
>> kc
>>
>>
>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Karen Coyle [mailto:kcoyle@kcoyle.net]
>>> Sent: Monday, December 03, 2012 20:28
>>> To: Graham Bell
>>> Cc: public-schemabibex@w3.org
>>> Subject: Re: Missing Schema.Org properties
>>>
>>> I do, however, see a significant difference between schema.org and the
>>> XML structure of ONIX (or any other XML-based metadata): schema.orgallows the data to be flattened to a single horizon of data. This is for
>>> the sake of simplicity, if I understand correctly. There seems to be a
>>> philosophy in schema.org that avoids a strict division of descriptions
>>> into "right" and "wrong." XML, instead, is really an enforcement mechanism.
>>>
>>> I'm leery of adding much structure to schema.org. Or at least, of
>>> either requiring it or relying on it. That makes the identifier "problem"
>>> particularly difficult. It is for this reason that I asked, in response
>>> to Shlomo's post, whether one can make use of the self-identifying nature
>>> of URIs. That doesn't help us with non-URI identifiers, but it seems that
>>> we are moving increasingly in the direction of "fully formed"
>>> identifiers.
>>>
>>> kc
>>>
>>> On 12/3/12 8:41 AM, Graham Bell wrote:
>>>
>>>> Worth saying at this point that this is EXACTLY how ONIX is structured:
>>>>
>>>>       <entityIdentifier>
>>>>            <entityIDType>
>>>>            <IDTypeName>
>>>>            <IDValue>
>>>>       </entityIdentifier>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> where 'entity' might be 'product', 'work', 'name', or whatever. There
>>>> is a controlled vocabulary for common IDTypes, and if you have some
>>>> proprietary identifier not in the list, you must include a 'likely to
>>>> be unique' name for it in <IDTypeName> instead.
>>>>
>>>> A point of history -- ONIX started (in 1999) with a property per
>>>> identifier type: there were tags called <ISBN> and <UPC>, but as
>>>> pointed out below, that isn't really practical, so the above XML
>>>> structure is used extensively now. It's easy to add to the controlled
>>>> vocabulary when a new identifier comes along, without having to
>>>> change the schema. In UML, it looks like the attached, and I leave
>>>> the RDF as an exercise for the reader...
>>>>
>>>> Graham
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Graham Bell
>>>> EDItEUR
>>>>
>>>> Tel: +44 20 7503 6418
>>>> Mob: +44 7887 754958
>>>>
>>>> EDItEUR Limited is a company limited by guarantee, registered in
>>>> England no 2994705. Registered Office: United House, North Road,
>>>> London N7 9DP, UK. Website: http://www.editeur.org
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 3 Dec 2012, at 16:18, Laura Dawson wrote:
>>>>
>>>>  That might work, actually.
>>>>>
>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>
>>>>> On Dec 3, 2012, at 4:05 PM, Karen Coyle <kcoyle@kcoyle.net
>>>>> <mailto:kcoyle@kcoyle.net>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 12/3/12 7:19 AM, Richard Wallis wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi Shlomo,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Couple of points.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  *Identifiers: *This is a particular concern of mine.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Me, too!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The approach of
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> having a named property for each possible identifier that a
>>>>>>> CreativeWork or a Person could have, just does not scale.  However
>>>>>>> to handle this you will always be disenfranchising some identifier
>>>>>>> backing group.  Isbn seems to of got in because it is know by
>>>>>>> everyone, oclcnum is obvious
>>>>>>> from where I sit (but that does not make it right).   I think we (in
>>>>>>> all
>>>>>>> of Schema, not just the bib domain) need an identifier Type with
>>>>>>> properties of 'identifierValue' and 'identifierType' - which could
>>>>>>> handle either an enumerated list or at least well known identifier
>>>>>>> names.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I believe that this means that "Identifier" becomes a "schema" in
>>>>>> schema.org <http://schema.org>.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> kc
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ~Richard.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>> --
>>> Karen Coyle
>>> kcoyle@kcoyle.net http://kcoyle.net
>>> ph: 1-510-540-7596
>>> m: 1-510-435-8234
>>> skype: kcoylenet
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> --
>> Karen Coyle
>> kcoyle@kcoyle.net http://kcoyle.net
>> ph: 1-510-540-7596
>> m: 1-510-435-8234
>> skype: kcoylenet
>>
>>
>>
>>
> --
> Karen Coyle
> kcoyle@kcoyle.net http://kcoyle.net
> ph: 1-510-540-7596
> m: 1-510-435-8234
> skype: kcoylenet
>
>