Re: Ontic categories, vocab in the top bubble

Thank you Tyler

To continue to bounce off ideas purposefully:

From a W3C perspective, collaboration with industry translates
into 'open web  interoperable standards'

So here, in relation the a hypothetical execution layer
AI KR  is framed in the context of open web standards

Can you please share some intelligence you may have about the
market/technology standardization landscape, which presumably is the
motivation for your company and projects aim to operate in?
This could  be informative

So when it comes to the execution layer, what existing open specifications
are there ?
 How do they interoperate/should interoperate? Are they human readable?

Industry can contribute to  the public interest in this way I think
and  the direction I see for a collaboration with this CG  as you briefly
outline it

It is great to know that other communities may  be interested in
topics/architectural layers that persistently come up here but are not in
scope for this group

P

On Thu, Dec 4, 2025 at 10:58 PM 陳信屹 <tyson@slashlife.ai> wrote:

> Thanks Paola and everyone for the thoughtful context.
>
> To help orient collaboration, let me briefly outline how I see
> possible intersections.
>
> My current position is primarily from the industry side. I am
> exploring a sixth-generation computing direction where KR becomes part
> of the execution substrate, linking Semantic ISA, agent identity, and
> AI Act–aligned workflows. This line will connect to the
> Lisbon–Fukuoka–Taipei corridor as a practical sandbox for testing
> deployment, compliance, and OEM/ODM implementations.
>
> Within this larger arc, I can imagine several modes of collaboration
> in W3C/Linux foundation:
>
> 1. Individual research alignment（those working on KR, agent models,
> semantics）
> 2. Commercial or technical cooperation（prototype modules, execution
> interfaces, evaluation tooling）
> 3. Funding collaboration（EU/TW/JP-facing or Industry proposals, joint
> work packages, cross-jurisdiction pilots）
>
> This is still being shaped; I am studying recent work by Melton,
> Daniel, and others to understand how different strands may converge.
> The goal is to create a setting where contributions from people across
> AI-related CGs can be supported and integrated, ideally in ways that
> benefit both open community work and applied industry development.
>
> Looking forward to discussing this further and seeing what forms of
> alignment make sense for everyone.
>
> Paola Di Maio <paoladimaio10@gmail.com> 於 2025年12月4日週四 下午3:04寫道：
> >
> > Thank you Tyson, for disclosing the funding avenues open to you and
> offering this opportunity to discuss via the list
> > The F word  *for funding has only been uttered behind closed doors, for
> reasons partly stated
> >
> > The mission in this CG started seven years ago, to see if we could use
> KR to understand/explain AI
> > taking into account the concerns at the time
> >
> > Defining   'what is KR' has been historically challenging *except for
> targeted techniques and papers used by semantic web community
> > everyone seemed to have a different view of KR for quite some time
> >
> > So we have applied here our ontology engineering skills *developed over
> twenty years of study practice and humble pies to create the necessary
> abstractions *maps
> >
> > If what is being shared here is useful, I have course materials,
> manuals, books, papers, demoes, vocabularies , diagrams etc
> > ready to be placed in the public domain.
> >
> > I envisage two main lines *possibly more
> >
> > one is producing a body of K supporting
> learning/understanding/explaining AI using KR
> >
> > another is making novel scientific and technical contributions *trying
> out new things, like agentic architectures either as research or as
> industry etc *may or may not be commercially viable
> >
> >  There has been ongoing ransacking, exploitation, misrepresentation and
> misattribution over the years of original work, and besides, some funders
> do not fund projects that have already started.
> >
> > Open community resources have historically been syphoned and directed
> towards privately managed projects developed with public funding.
> > I have personally witnessed thirty years of that. Now AI is making that
> all the more easier, but it started long before AI existed
> >
> > But the institutional ecosystem has covered that up, because 1. few
> people understand what is going on .2. the system of malpratice is
> profoundly embedded in society and it feeds very large populations and
> their children.
> > There is a code of silence, and those who open their mouths are cast out
> and risk being accused of heresy and witchraft even!!  *lol
> >
> > This is where we need some consideration of how to package and propagate
> >
> > There is need for learning, orientation and understanding of AI and KR
> is useful and need for advancing the state of the KR in AI
> >
> > We are just now figuring out how to slice , so thanks for being
> available to support the resourcing aspect of this work
> >
> > If any of your projects is related to KR please feel free to share it
> here/please enter pointers in the wiki because of reasons already
> > stated
> >
> > I have been thinking of opening up some call for paper, organise a
> series of workshops for the CG, especially leveraging the synergy with
> other AI related CGs, but as you may have realised i have been busy with
> menial jobs, including my own deadlines etc
> > Our priority should include support for W3C open communities I think, as
> a public interest enterprise
> >
> > Completely open to shape CG direction to fit and support the projects
> that you may be thinking of submitting for funding
> >
> > So yes, let's get our heads together soon
> >
> > Thank you
> >
> > PDM
> >
> > On Wed, Dec 3, 2025 at 2:45 PM 陳信屹 <tyson@slashlife.ai> wrote:
> >>
> >> Paola,
> >>
> >> thanks for sharing your concerns so candidly.
> >>
> >> Since funding and protection are part of this discussion, I should give
> you clearer context about my own capacity and options on this side.
> >>
> >> I hold legal entities in Portugal and Taiwan, and I am also working
> along the JP line.
> >>
> >> Because of this structure I already have concrete access routes to:
> >>
> >> Portugal 2030
> >>
> >> Horizon Europe
> >>
> >> NLnet
> >>
> >> EIC Accelerator / Pathfind
> >>
> >> corresponding TW / JP research-support programs
> >>
> >> These routes are already in motion on my end.
> >>
> >> If your artefacts and the KR-interface line mature into a shared
> direction, we can take an offline moment to map how our work can be
> positioned for the above funding channels in a way that respects
> authorship, protects the novel parts, and avoids the issues you mentioned.
> >>
> >> No rush.
> >>
> >> When you feel it is the right time, I am happy to walk through the
> structure and see how we could leverage it without compromising the
> integrity of your work.
> >>
> >> when you feel the timing is appropriate I’m happy to coordinate
> privately on how these funding routes could support the portions of work
> you consider worth developing.
> >>
> >> Paola Di Maio <paoladimaio10@gmail.com>於 2025年12月2日 週二，下午2:43寫道：
> >>>
> >>> Tyson, thank you for looking at the artefacts in development
> >>> It is great that you are finding it useful
> >>>
> >>> I am working on a bunch of artefacts and experimenting with ways this
> can be built into agents!!
> >>> I am a bit wary of sharing because I would like to look for funding
> for the deserving portions of this work
> >>>
> >>> You ask when am I going to publish - asap, as soon as I can free my
> hands, but publishing does not
> >>> mean that it will not get plagiarized, pardon the sour rant.
> >>>
> >>> SOUR RANT BEGINS
> >>> *many academics regularly scour mailing lists to plagiarise other
> people's work, including when it is already published, acknowledged and in
> use
> >>> There are a lot of academics who  get funding for their own project
> and do not even give credit
> >>>
> >>> Sad, and very frequent.  My own original work in ontology, engineering
> and emergency management has been plagiarized and submitted for funding
> *with public funding agencies  Including my PhD thesis. There are scores
> of  funded projects and published papers as deliverables of such funded
> that cite other plagiarised papers that are copied straight out from other
> published works. There are enemies among us.  Nobody can afford to pursue
> expensive legal battle to demonstrate that the academics so and so, in the
> public unversities so and so that receive public funding from all major
> public councils world wide are actually criminal organisations
> >>> END OF SOUR RANT
> >>>
> >>> I suppose posting to the internal mailing list is a good idea when
> sharing novel artefacts. See internal mailing list address in cc
> >>> But all list members, including serial plagiarisers may also be on the
> internal list.
> >>> I ll keep the roadmap reserved for the moment
> >>>
> >>> In the meantime, I have given it a preliminary DOI
> >>>   10.6084/m9.figshare.30760739
> >>>
> >>> It would be great to continue to bounce in this direction
> >>> what I got from this exchange so far is
> >>>
> >>> 1. We need a new category *bubble  in our concept map for KR
> interfaces *I have already done some literature review and apparently Pater
> Patel S on this mailing list did some work on this some 25 years ago, I
> have not had time to summarize the state of the art. There are KR
> interfaces out there to be gathered
> >>>
> >>> 2. In this CG we are creating some KR artefacts that can be used by
> agents/models to establish ontological commitment *to refine and improve
> >>> the quality of the queries and possibly improve overall performance?
> *I think so
> >>>
> >>> Do let us know how your test bed works but please explain it in plan
> words?!
> >>>
> >>> I do have a couple more demos myself I can share..... er...
> >>>
> >>> PDM
> >>>
> >>> On Tue, Dec 2, 2025 at 11:20 AM 陳信屹 <tyson@slashlife.ai> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> To further explore this alignment, I’d like to propose using it as the
> >>>> first testbed use case within our CG. a small demo video that
> >>>> showcases how the Unified Ontic Ontology can ground the Agent Ontology
> >>>> in an executable environment.
> >>>>
> >>>> I don’t yet have a concrete idea for what the best showcase would be.
> >>>> perhaps something minimal that demonstrates
> >>>> Intent–Capability–Delegation flow in a verifiable way.
> >>>> I’d be happy to hear thoughts or suggestions from everyone on what
> >>>> kind of example could best illustrate the value of this alignment.
> >>>>
> >>>> 陳信屹 <tyson@slashlife.ai> 於 2025年12月2日週二 上午11:02寫道：
> >>>> >
> >>>> > Hi Paola
> >>>> >
> >>>> > I’ve been reviewing your Unified Ontic Ontology work. the
> >>>> > cross-mapping across BFO, DOLCE, SUMO, GFO, UFO and YAMATO is an
> >>>> > excellent unification of top-level categories.
> >>>> >
> >>>> > To explore its practical impact inside our Semantic Agent
> >>>> > Communication CG, I drafted a minimal alignment block that connects
> >>>> > the Agent Ontology (core modules: Agent, Intent, Capability,
> >>>> > Delegation …) to your Unified Ontic framework. This gives the Agent
> >>>> > Ontology a stable ontic frame.
> >>>> >
> >>>> > From the engineering side, this alignment allows the AgentIDL
> compiler
> >>>> > to automatically bind each interface (Intent, Capability,
> Delegation)
> >>>> > to its ontic category in Unified Ontic Ontology. This makes the
> >>>> > generated code semantically interoperable across domains. The same
> >>>> > AgentIDL interface can compile into different ontological
> environments
> >>>> > (BFO, DOLCE, SUMO) while preserving meaning.
> >>>> >
> >>>> > Concretely, we could use it not by importing the whole thing, but by
> >>>> > referencing key classes.
> >>>> >
> >>>> > Here’s the snippet (for review / discussion):
> >>>> >
> >>>> > ################################################################
> >>>> > # Ontic Alignment — Unified Ontic Ontology
> >>>> > # (Light-weight mappings to BFO/DOLCE/SUMO/GFO/UFO/YAMATO families)
> >>>> > ################################################################
> >>>> >
> >>>> > @prefix exu: <http://example.org/unified-ontic#> .
> >>>> > @prefix agent: <
> https://s-agent-comm.github.io/ontology/ontologies/agent#> .
> >>>> > @prefix intent: <
> https://s-agent-comm.github.io/ontology/ontologies/intent#> .
> >>>> > @prefix capability:
> >>>> > <https://s-agent-comm.github.io/ontology/ontologies/capability#> .
> >>>> > @prefix contract:
> >>>> > <https://s-agent-comm.github.io/ontology/ontologies/contract#> .
> >>>> > @prefix ledger: <
> https://s-agent-comm.github.io/ontology/ontologies/ledger#> .
> >>>> > @prefix delegation:
> >>>> > <https://s-agent-comm.github.io/ontology/ontologies/delegation#> .
> >>>> > @prefix security:
> >>>> > <
> https://s-agent-comm.github.io/ontology/ontologies/security-binding#>
> >>>> > .
> >>>> > @prefix rdfs: <http://www.w3.org/2000/01/rdf-schema#> .
> >>>> > @prefix owl: <http://www.w3.org/2002/07/owl#> .
> >>>> >
> >>>> > ################################################################
> >>>> > # Core class alignments
> >>>> > ################################################################
> >>>> >
> >>>> > agent:Agent a owl:Class ;
> >>>> >     rdfs:label "Agent" ;
> >>>> >     rdfs:comment "An autonomous computational entity with identity
> and intent,
> >>>> >                   modeled as a social artifact capable of delegation
> >>>> > and accountability." ;
> >>>> >     rdfs:subClassOf exu:ArtifactSocial ;
> >>>> >     exu:mapsTo "BFO:MaterialEntity->Artifact; DOLCE:SocialObject;
> >>>> > SUMO:Agent; UFO:SocialAgent" ;
> >>>> >     rdfs:seeAlso <https://basic-formal-ontology.org/> ,
> >>>> > <https://www.loa-cnr.it/DOLCE.html> .
> >>>> >
> >>>> > intent:Intent a owl:Class ;
> >>>> >     rdfs:label "Intent" ;
> >>>> >     rdfs:comment "A deliberative mental state or communicative
> >>>> > commitment of an agent." ;
> >>>> >     rdfs:subClassOf exu:AbstractEntity ;
> >>>> >     exu:mapsTo "BFO:GenericallyDependentContinuant;
> >>>> > DOLCE:Description/Proposition; SUMO:Intent; UFO:Intention" .
> >>>> >
> >>>> > capability:Capability a owl:Class ;
> >>>> >     rdfs:label "Capability" ;
> >>>> >     rdfs:comment "A realizable disposition or function that an agent
> >>>> > can exercise." ;
> >>>> >     rdfs:subClassOf exu:FunctionDisposition ;
> >>>> >     exu:mapsTo "BFO:RealizableEntity/Function; DOLCE:Capability;
> >>>> > SUMO:Capability; GFO:Disposition; UFO:Disposition" .
> >>>> >
> >>>> > contract:Contract a owl:Class ;
> >>>> >     rdfs:label "Contract" ;
> >>>> >     rdfs:comment "A social artifact representing binding obligations
> >>>> > between agents." ;
> >>>> >     rdfs:subClassOf exu:ArtifactSocial ;
> >>>> >     exu:mapsTo "DOLCE:SocialObject; SUMO:Agreement;
> UFO:SocialRelator" .
> >>>> >
> >>>> > ledger:Ledger a owl:Class ;
> >>>> >     rdfs:label "Ledger" ;
> >>>> >     rdfs:comment "A record artifact capturing accountable agent
> transactions." ;
> >>>> >     rdfs:subClassOf exu:ArtifactSocial ;
> >>>> >     exu:mapsTo "BFO:InformationArtifact; DOLCE:InformationObject;
> >>>> > SUMO:Document" .
> >>>> >
> >>>> > delegation:Delegation a owl:Class ;
> >>>> >     rdfs:label "Delegation" ;
> >>>> >     rdfs:comment "A social relation between agents defining
> authority
> >>>> > transfer or responsibility." ;
> >>>> >     rdfs:subClassOf exu:RelationRelator ;
> >>>> >     exu:mapsTo "BFO:RelationalRole; DOLCE:Relation; SUMO:Relation;
> >>>> > UFO:Relator" .
> >>>> >
> >>>> > security:ProofBinding a owl:Class ;
> >>>> >     rdfs:label "ProofBinding" ;
> >>>> >     rdfs:comment "A verifiable binding between identity, proof, and
> >>>> > execution context." ;
> >>>> >     rdfs:subClassOf exu:DependentContinuant ;
> >>>> >     exu:mapsTo "BFO:Quality; DOLCE:Quality; SUMO:Attribute" .
> >>>> >
> >>>> > ################################################################
> >>>> > # Optional note
> >>>> > ################################################################
> >>>> >
> >>>> > <https://s-agent-comm.github.io/ontology/ontologies/core#>
> >>>> >     rdfs:comment "This ontology is ontically grounded via Unified
> >>>> > Ontic Ontology alignment,
> >>>> >                   enabling cross-compatibility with major upper
> >>>> > ontologies (BFO, DOLCE, SUMO, UFO).
> >>>> >                   The mapping ensures that computational agents are
> >>>> > modeled as social artifacts
> >>>> >                   with realizable capabilities, intentional states,
> >>>> > and relational accountability." .
> >>>> >
> >>>> >
> >>>> > By the way, do you have an estimated timeline for publishing or
> >>>> > finalizing the Unified Ontic Ontology (TTL version)?
> >>>> > I’d like to align the AgentIDL compiler’s ontic bindings with your
> >>>> > official release once it’s available.
> >>>> >
> >>>> > Paola Di Maio <paola.dimaio@gmail.com> 於 2025年11月28日週五 下午6:49寫道：
> >>>> > >
> >>>> > > Thinking of where would Tyson's agentic execution interface
> specification would sit in the diagram, *presumably in the  KR
> Language/Formalism bubble?
> >>>> > > I have extracted  captured in a table and a list of terms most
> ontic categories, which is going to be our first deliverable,
> >>>> > > please give feedback, help to improve/expand.
> >>>> > >
> >>>> > > Please request access to view
> >>>> > >
> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1OyZGVDCMozbAGPaKqYpUnWX75raGoCNpd6KJN3bMoFQ/edit?usp=sharing
> >>>> > >
> >>>> > >
> >>>> > >
> >>>> > >
> >>>> > >
> >>>> > > Please request access if you would like to give feedback
>