W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > public-rww@w3.org > April 2014

Re: writes from Cimba to data.fm

From: Tim Holborn <timothy.holborn@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2014 20:50:39 +1000
Cc: cr <_@whats-your.name>, "public-rww@w3.org" <public-rww@w3.org>
Message-Id: <54C78FDA-FB24-4516-A309-971C526E3D65@gmail.com>
To: Andrei Sambra <andrei.sambra@gmail.com>
I’m not sure how many WebID’s are out there in the world getting used in this fashion (i’m excluding FB open-graph, google login, etc.)  but looking back at history, i believe TimBL Made the first Web-Browser (not just the specification) and a ‘demo' that kinda worked.  from fable (didn’t use it personally) the first browser did read/write?  lots of videos about it, can’t recall the specifics.. 

reading the initial documentation; it worked when he demonstrated it to others, and this was important for him both personally; and in “proof" (the value) “of" (his) “work".  I also imagine it’s important in terms of development also; to test with an appropriate pool of users from many walks of life; as to identify social, cognitive and other influences surrounding the network effect.  what is meaningful to lay-people, technologists, all different levels, graphic designers, gamers, twitter gurus, etc.  We’re simply not able to perform these forms of ‘tests’ yet IMHO, and whilst frustratingly close - i guess it just gets down to coordinating between distributed resources, critical-path, etc.

I feel quite strongly about the idea of using a Username/pass for a user-account, but issuing a x.509v3 WebID Cert to the machine - but it’s seemingly a academic discussion until we get enough users either engaging it the models successfully - or complaining about process orientated flaws / failed ‘business processes’ / functionality concepts… 

From what i understand; there’s a desire to get a user-base up and going.  In so many documents it speaks of how quickly the web ‘took-off’, which then brought about the need and resources to get the technologies to the next levels.  My hope in seeking to get the starting-point to a more inclusive level; is about the engagement methods used for consumer applications of RWW / WebID / LDP and related technologies.

Whilst i understand the differences between POC, Standards, Free Software and Commercial Software one might consider where the world would be if we were waiting for someone to build the first working web-browser as the focus was purely on standards.  I’m a big believer in free-software as setting the standards. 

With relation to [1] and [2] i guess the expectations around how to move forward are a tad fuzzy to me…  I’d like to send examples to people who have technical influence in projects, communities and other formative groups that relate to uptake of this technology, but we’re still missing products that are user-friendly.  building a FOAF record, in turtle - a good example.  

i understand we can always use more developers; but we’ve got to have ‘things’ available to demonstrate why they need to learn the difference between a relational DB and a graph based system.  Methods, opportunities to ‘spark interest’ and stimulate innovation beyond the core groups who have some highly unusual interest (in the context of the entire web user base) in these new technologies for specified reasons. 

it’s not a gift till you give it to others who value it, or perhaps it’s not a good gift till that occurs.  but since these things have existed for so many years, well…  I figure, once the next steps are done HOPEFULLY the solutions and people involved will have a scalability problem.  we need to foster better ways to grow the origin community, if that makes sense (IMHO).

Cimba is so close to awesome.  what do we need to get an issues list that incorporates a reasonable needs analysis for it; and rww.io / data.fm so that the software lifecycle can be tested by others, far more easily. 

TimH.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0_XaJ97rF0
[2] http://crosscloud.org
   
On 8 Apr 2014, at 4:47 pm, Andrei Sambra <andrei.sambra@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> 
> On Tue, Apr 8, 2014 at 3:29 PM, cr <_@whats-your.name> wrote:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0_XaJ97rF0 is certainly evidence that it "works for deiu"..
> 
> and probably any other user of rww.io.. of course, i want to know exactly what's required for all of this RWW thing to work. so had to write a webserver from scratch, and it's been a constant tweaking of things here and there since - ok, text/turtle posts weren't accepted.. ok OPTIONS wasn't saying this or that. ok a CORS header for * didnt' exist - but now we're in a credentialed scenario so it has to be the exact domain - or something - cue reading 12 more spec docs, gold source, mitmproxy of https:// sessions to data.fm with custom-imported snakeoil certificates..
> 
> furthest i can get using data.fm 'Creating...' on a 'microblog space' just hangs, with either a 200 or 400:
> 
> I'm not sure data.fm is using the latest LDP spec implementation that I have added to ldphp. You have to remember that neither Cimba nor rww.io are production (commercial) software. Unfortunately, they are just proof of work for a decentralized Web that is based on standards. You should only use them if you want to be on the bleeding edge of the work that is being done in this domain.
>  
> 
> creating mb w/ #storage set to https://user.data.fm/space
> 
> POSTs a 0byte text/turtle -> 200 OK, blank "RDF file" appears in data.fm
> 
> #storage set to https://user.data.fm/ throws the aforementioned 400:
> <h1>400 Bad Request</h1>
> <p>Cannot read from a directory '/mnt/md1/srv/src/data.fm/data/cr.data.fm/'</p>
> 
> which looks like it's trying to read a file using a directory path
> 
> Yes, both data.fm and rww.io use the filesystem as storage medium, so you end up with a 1-1 mapping to the filesystem.
>  
> 
> probably should just try rww.io, but it's no fun just duplicating the exact environment when interoperable implementations are the goal. but had to use chrome - seems like Angular.JS is broken in Firefox-28. getting uncompiled {{}} handlebar.js-looking templates mixed into a semiworking UI along with all sorts of exotic-sounding errors with strange-looking operators like //# or //@ http://mw.logbook.am/img/cimba.hmm.png
> 
> Where do those weird operators come from?
>  
> 
> 
> unclear on exactly what's different between rww.io and data.fm - clearly they are different, eg:
> p ~ curl -I https://notfound.data.fm/space
> HTTP/1.1 200 OK
> p ~ curl -I https://notfound.rww.io/space
> HTTP/1.1 404 Not Found
> 
> Yes, that's because data.fm uses a "wiki" convention, in which a Web resource always exists but it may be empty. Whether that resource exists or not, it should not matter for the app, since you are interested in the triples inside the document instead of the document itself.
> 
> 'datawiki' scripts from 2008 also did 200 on every nonexistent but creatable resource
> 
> 
> Soon we plan on releasing a detailed document on how to build such a server, how the interaction model (LDP) works in this case, and a lot more interesting stuff. Stay tuned! :)
> 
> -- Andrei
> 


Received on Tuesday, 8 April 2014 10:53:33 UTC

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