- From: Patrick Albert <palbert@ilog.fr>
- Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2008 10:45:11 +0200
- To: "Sandro Hawke" <sandro@w3.org>, "Leora Morgenstern" <leora@us.ibm.com>
- Cc: "Adrian Paschke" <adrian.paschke@biotec.tu-dresden.de>, <public-rif-wg@w3.org>, "Stella Mitchell" <cleo@us.ibm.com>
My two cents about syntax.
The current syntax looks to me as a very oldish syntax inherited from Prolog and Lisp which almost everyone has dropped since years. BTW I was shocked by the syntax when I read the document, and reported that privately to Christian. It might be ok for the rest of the academic Logic Programming community but I do not believe that it fits the practice of the community of developers at ease with modern OO languages such as Java or C#.
If we want to reach the community of application developers, we might have to get rid of old habits.
For PRD I would strongly recommend that, if we really want a human friendly syntax, the group takes in account JAVA/C# style and existing rules languages such as Blaze, ILOG Rules, Jess and the variety of the so-called "Business Rules" languages.
Patrick.
-----Original Message-----
From: public-rif-wg-request@w3.org [mailto:public-rif-wg-request@w3.org] On Behalf Of Sandro Hawke
Sent: mardi 26 août 2008 00:23
To: Leora Morgenstern
Cc: Adrian Paschke; public-rif-wg@w3.org; Stella Mitchell
Subject: Re: AW: [RIF Test Cases] Abridged Presentation syntax
> I agree that having a syntax that looks familiar and is close to common
> practice will help increase adoption of RIF.
>
> Is it possible to have a preprocessor that translates some form of
> Abridged Presentation Syntax to Full Presentation Syntax? This would allow
> users to work in a more familiar and easier-to-learn syntax.
While I'd be happy to see a comfortable and familiar presentation
syntax, I'm doubtful we'll be able to agree on one. Can we agree on
what the conditional operator is? (if/then, :-, <-, etc) I don't
think so. Many of us would object to ":-", but at F2F10 it was clear
that others would object to anything other than ":-". So we're left
with something that we live with knowing it's ugly.
In that discussion we were talking about UCR. And there we seem settled
on having multiple syntaxes. I think we can do the same for test
cases. The main point, I think, is that anyone who want to write in
any language other than the XML syntax has to provide a stable public
document for the language and a web service and/or code to do the
translation... Or something like that...?
-- Sandro
>
>
>
> "Adrian Paschke" <adrian.paschke@biotec.tu-dresden.de>=20
> 08/25/2008 08:50 AM
>
> To
> Leora Morgenstern/Watson/IBM@IBMUS, Stella Mitchell/Watson/IBM@IBMUS
> cc
> <public-rif-wg@w3.org>
> Subject
> AW: [RIF Test Cases] Abridged Presentation syntax
>
>
>
>
>
>
> True, no problem to fix the examples and use explicit Forall, And etc.
> =20
> But, one more argument is:
> =20
> As Leora already pointed out these conventions and short cuts are=20
> frequently used in logic / logic programming. There is a long history here =
>
> which we can and should not neglect. Language standards, e.g. ISO Prolog=20
> syntax, as well as many tools for engineering, editing, translating etc.=20
> exist. If our abridged presentation syntax is close to what is common=20
> practice we will support reusability of existing tools, will make it easy=20
> to learn and understand RIF, and will increase adoption of it.
> =20
> Just my two cents,
> =20
> Adrian
> =20
>
> Von: public-rif-wg-request@w3.org [mailto:public-rif-wg-request@w3.org] Im =
>
> Auftrag von Leora Morgenstern
> Gesendet: Montag, 25. August 2008 14:30
> An: Stella Mitchell
> Cc: public-rif-wg@w3.org
> Betreff: Re: [RIF Test Cases] Abridged Presentation syntax
> =20
>
> You're right, Stella! I had missed that. Thanks for pointing it out.=20
>
> In any case, those are easy to fix, and less of an issue than the=20
> abbreviations listed in the table.=20
>
> Leora=20
>
>
>
> Stella Mitchell/Watson/IBM=20
> 08/25/2008 08:24 AM=20
>
>
> To
> Leora Morgenstern/Watson/IBM=20
> cc
> public-rif-wg@w3.org=20
> Subject
> Re: [RIF Test Cases] Abridged Presentation syntaxLink
> =20
>
>
> =20
> =20
>
>
>
> They're listed as part of the abridged presentation syntax, immediately=20
> below the table.=20
>
> Stella=20
>
>
>
> Leora Morgenstern/Watson/IBM=20
> 08/25/2008 08:16 AM=20
>
>
> To
> Stella Mitchell/Watson/IBM@IBMUS=20
> cc
> "Adrian Paschke" <Adrian.Paschke@gmx.de>, "Hassan A=EFt-Kaci"=20
> <hak@ilog.com>, public-rif-wg@w3.org=20
> Subject
> Re: [RIF Test Cases] Abridged Presentation syntaxLink
> =20
>
>
> =20
> =20
>
>
>
> Stella,=20
> =20
> >The syntax left in UCR that is not official PS syntax is:=20
> > - shortcuts for external functions & predicates=20
> > - can leave out "And" and conjuction is assumed=20
> >- can leave out Forall for rules with variables and assume variables are =
>
> quantified=20
> > - denoting the end of a rule with a period=20
>
> The last three are actually not even part of the Abridged Presentation=20
> Syntax, and do not figure in Adrian's table mapping Abridged Presentation=20
> Syntax to Presentation Syntax. They are just conventions that are=20
> frequently used in logical formalizations/ logic programming, and have=20
> crept into some of the examples. It is easy to fix the examples so that=20
> these aren't used, and I agree that we should do so.=20
>
> Regarding the first: I agree also that it would be best to have one=20
> unified convention for shortcuts. While we are revisiting the BLD syntax,=20
> as Adrian suggested, in order to formalize various open issues. it would=20
> be worthwhile discussing whether we should integrate some of the shortcuts =
>
> of the Abbreviated Presentation Syntax into the shortcuts already defined=20
> in the BLD document.=20
>
> Leora=20
>
>
> Stella Mitchell/Watson/IBM@IBMUS=20
> Sent by: public-rif-wg-request@w3.org=20
> 08/23/2008 07:20 AM=20
>
>
> To
> "Adrian Paschke" <Adrian.Paschke@gmx.de>=20
> cc
> "Hassan A=EFt-Kaci" <hak@ilog.com>, public-rif-wg@w3.org,=20
> public-rif-wg-request@w3.org=20
> Subject
> Re: [RIF Test Cases] Abridged Presentation syntax
> =20
>
>
> =20
> =20
>
>
>
>
>
> Adrian,=20
>
> As I mentioned several times during our internal discussions, it would be=20
> good to reconcile with the shortcuts defined for BLD PS.=20
>
> In your UCR abridged presentation syntax table [2], rows=20
> 1, 2, 3, 5, 6 and 7 are redundant with the shortcuts in DTB [1].=20
>
> Row 4 is about text with a language tag. Axel currently has a proposal for =
>
>
> a shortcut for this in [3].=20
>
> The syntax left in UCR that is not official PS syntax is:=20
> - shortcuts for external functions & predicates=20
> - can leave out "And" and conjuction is assumed=20
> - can leave out Forall for rules with variables and assume variables are =
>
> quantified=20
> - denoting the end of a rule with a period=20
> =20
> For the (BLD) test cases, I think we should stay with normative BLD=20
> syntax,=20
> and only use shortcuts that the group agrees to add to that syntax.=20
>
> Stella=20
>
>
> [1]=20
> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/DTB#Shortcuts=5Ffor=5FConstants=5Fin=5FRI=
> F.27s=5FPresentation=5FSyntax=20
>
>
> [2] http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/UCR#Use=5FCases=20
>
> [3] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2008Aug/0074.html=20
>
>
>
>
> "Adrian Paschke" <Adrian.Paschke@gmx.de>=20
> Sent by: public-rif-wg-request@w3.org=20
> 08/23/2008 05:24 AM=20
> =20
>
>
> To
> "Hassan A=EFt-Kaci" <hak@ilog.com>=20
> cc
> public-rif-wg@w3.org=20
> Subject
> Re: [RIF Test Cases] Abridged Presentation syntax
> =20
>
>
> =20
> =20
>
>
>
>
>
>
> H Hassan,
>
> >=20
> > Hi Adrian,
> >=20
> > I appreciate the motivation you invoke for introducing an Abridged
> > Presentation Syntax (APS). This makes an APS expression an abbreviation
> > of a PS expression, itself an abbreviation for the normative XML syntax.
> > In DTB, Axel Polleres already defined abbreviations (although formally:
> >=20
> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/DTB#Shortcuts=5Ffor=5FConstants=5Fin=5FRI=
> F.27s=5FPresentation=5FSyntax
> )
> > and he used them for the examples of the DTB document. My question is,
> > are the abridged forms for DTB consistent with those your introduce
> > in http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/UCR#Use=5FCases? If not, can it be
> > made so? If so, could the two be specified formally along the rest of
> > the EBNF rules for BLD Rules and BLD Conditions?=20
>
> Thanks for the hint - didn't know about the new abridged syntax in DTB. At =
>
> the time when we specified the abridged presentation syntax (actually it=20
> was you and Harold who started it) for UCR, there was nothing in DTB.=20
>
> Will check if both are consistent or something is missing in DTB.=20
> Moreover, I will then simply link to DTB for the syntax of examples in=20
> UCR.
>
>
> >Currently Axel's rules
> > are hyperlinked to where they are defined in other W3C documents all
> > over the place as an extension of the original BLD EBNF. It would be
> > good to put together somewhere the complete set of lexical and syntactic
> > EBNF rules for the real PS as it is actually used in *all* RIF documents
> > (whether UCR, Core, BLD, DTB, PRD, ...).=20
>
> Yes, agree. I think it is now time to review again the full and abriged=20
> presentation syntax, complete it, and solve open issues. For instance, I=20
> remember the ":-" or "=3D>" question for rules presentation.=20
>
> We need final versions to update the examples in UCR, PRD, Core, ... and=20
> Test Cases.
>
> >That would surely help *me* in
> > my task to provide a correct working APS parser to automate generating
> > the serialized XML for of all the examples in these documents=20
> > (http://www.w3.org/2008/08/19-rif-minutes.html#action08).
> >=20
> > At any rate, I will be on vacation from tonight through August 31 and I
> > will resume work on this after I am back.
>
> Enjoy your vacations.
>
> -Adrian
>
>
> >=20
> > Adrian Paschke wrote:
> > > Hi Jos,
> > >=20
> > > You asked:=20
> > >=20
> > >> In
> > >> addition, it is unclear to me which syntax they use. it is certainly
> > not
> > >> valid presentation syntax.
> > >=20
> > > It is the abridged presentation syntax from UCR
> > > (http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/UCR#Use=5FCases) which was introduced
> > there
> > > to have a very compact and easy readable human-oriented format.
> > >=20
> > > It might be also usable for the test cases to get a quick picture what
> > the
> > > rules of the test case are. The full presentation syntax can become=20
> very
> > > complex, take e.g. the simple example of "?X>=3D (?Y+2) " which would be
> > very
> > > long-winded in the full presentation syntax and hard to read for a
> > human.
> > >=20
> > > But you are right; we need full presentation syntax to automatically
> > > translate them into the concrete XML syntax.=20
> > >=20
> > > Hence, I would propose to describe the test cases in full presentation
> > > syntax in the premises and conclusion field (or alternatively already=20
> in
> > > concrete XML syntax) and optionally represent them in abridged
> > presentation
> > > syntax together with the narrative description of the test case in the
> > > "Description" field.=20
> > > An alternative would be to have several (optional) premise /=20
> conclusion
> > > fields which represent the test case in different syntaxes (abridge,
> > full,
> > > XML, PRD, BLD, ...).
> > >=20
> > > - Adrian
> > >=20
> > >=20
> > > -----Urspr=FCngliche Nachricht-----
> > > Von: public-rif-wg-request@w3.org [mailto:public-rif-wg-request@w3.org
> ]
> > Im
> > > Auftrag von Jos de Bruijn
> > > Gesendet: Donnerstag, 21. August 2008 15:46
> > > An: Chris Welty
> > > Cc: Public-Rif-Wg (E-mail)
> > > Betreff: Re: Call for test cases
> > >=20
> > >=20
> > >=20
> > >> Below are instructions to create new test cases on the WIKI. The test
> > >> cases will be automatically classified into the category of the used
> > >> template and the specified dialect. We probably might need more
> > >> templates (categories) later, as described here
> > >> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Test#Categories=5Fof=5FRIF=5FTest=5F=
> Cases
> > >>
> > >> But let's start simple first and collect positive entailment tests
> > which
> > >> demonstrate BLD and DTB.
> > >>
> > >> The properties of the templates for test cases are described here
> > >> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Test=5FCase=5FFormat
> > >=20
> > > The page lacks descriptions of the properties Text and Format and
> > > guidelines about how to format the title.
> > > Then, it is not very clear to me what the difference is between the
> > > properties Purpose and Description.
> > >=20
> > >> Some example test cases for BLD (positive entailment test cases) can=20
> be
> > >> found here
> > >>
> > >> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Test=5FCase=5FOrdered=5FRelations
> > >> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Test=5FCase=5FUnordered=5FRelations
> > >> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Test=5FCase=5FFrames
> > >> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Test=5FCase=5FEquality
> > >=20
> > > All the examples like the required properties title and purpose. In
> > > addition, it is unclear to me which syntax they use. it is certainly=20
> not
> > > valid presentation syntax.
> > >=20
> > >=20
> > > I tried to write a test case (a negative entailment test), but I was=20
> not
> > > sure whether it is in the correct format. Please check:
> > > http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Test=5FCase=5FLocal=5FConstant
> > >=20
> > >=20
> > > Best, Jos
> > >=20
> > >=20
> > >=20
> > >=20
> > >=20
> >=20
> >=20
> > --=20
> > Hassan A=EFt-Kaci * ILOG, Inc. - Product Division R&D
> > http://koala.ilog.fr/wiki/bin/view/Main/HassanAitKaci
> >=20
>
> --=20
> Ist Ihr Browser Vista-kompatibel? Jetzt die neuesten=20
> Browser-Versionen downloaden: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/browser
>
>
>
>
> --=_alternative 00708F94852574B0_=
> Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
>
> <br><font size=3D2 face=3D"sans-serif">I agree that having a syntax that lo=
> oks
> familiar and is close to common practice will help increase adoption of
> RIF. </font>
> <br>
> <br><font size=3D2 face=3D"sans-serif">Is it possible to have a preprocessor
> that translates some form of Abridged Presentation Syntax to Full Presentat=
> ion
> Syntax? This would allow users to work in a more familiar and easier-to-lea=
> rn
> syntax. </font>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <table width=3D100%>
> <tr valign=3Dtop>
> <td width=3D40%><font size=3D1 face=3D"sans-serif"><b>"Adrian Paschke&=
> quot;
> <adrian.paschke@biotec.tu-dresden.de></b> </font>
> <p><font size=3D1 face=3D"sans-serif">08/25/2008 08:50 AM</font>
> <td width=3D59%>
> <table width=3D100%>
> <tr>
> <td>
> <div align=3Dright><font size=3D1 face=3D"sans-serif">To</font></div>
> <td valign=3Dtop><font size=3D1 face=3D"sans-serif">Leora Morgenstern/Watso=
> n/IBM@IBMUS,
> Stella Mitchell/Watson/IBM@IBMUS</font>
> <tr>
> <td>
> <div align=3Dright><font size=3D1 face=3D"sans-serif">cc</font></div>
> <td valign=3Dtop><font size=3D1 face=3D"sans-serif"><public-rif-wg@w3.or=
> g></font>
> <tr>
> <td>
> <div align=3Dright><font size=3D1 face=3D"sans-serif">Subject</font></div>
> <td valign=3Dtop><font size=3D1 face=3D"sans-serif">AW: [RIF Test Cases] Ab=
> ridged
> Presentation syntax</font></table>
> <br>
> <table>
> <tr valign=3Dtop>
> <td>
> <td></table>
> <br></table>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br><font size=3D2 color=3D#000080 face=3D"Arial">True, no problem to fix t=
> he
> examples and use explicit Forall, And etc.</font>
> <br><font size=3D2 color=3D#000080 face=3D"Arial"> </font>
> <br><font size=3D2 color=3D#000080 face=3D"Arial">But, one more argument is=
> :</font>
> <br><font size=3D2 color=3D#000080 face=3D"Arial"> </font>
> <br><font size=3D2 color=3D#000080 face=3D"Arial">As Leora already pointed =
> out
> these conventions and short cuts are frequently used in logic / logic progr=
> amming.
> There is a long history here which we can and should not neglect. Language
> standards, e.g. ISO Prolog syntax, as well as many tools for engineering,
> editing, translating etc. exist. If our abridged presentation syntax is
> close to what is common practice we will support reusability of existing
> tools, will make it easy to learn and understand RIF, and will increase
> adoption of it.</font>
> <br><font size=3D2 color=3D#000080 face=3D"Arial"> </font>
> <br><font size=3D2 color=3D#000080 face=3D"Arial">Just my two cents,</font>
> <br><font size=3D2 color=3D#000080 face=3D"Arial"> </font>
> <br><font size=3D2 color=3D#000080 face=3D"Arial">Adrian</font>
> <br><font size=3D2 color=3D#000080 face=3D"Arial"> </font>
> <div align=3Dcenter>
> <br>
> <hr></div>
> <br><font size=3D2 face=3D"Tahoma"><b>Von:</b> public-rif-wg-request@w3.org
> [</font><a href=3D"mailto:public-rif-wg-request@w3.org"><font size=3D2 face=
> =3D"Tahoma">mailto:public-rif-wg-request@w3.org</font></a><font size=3D2 fa=
> ce=3D"Tahoma">]
> <b>Im Auftrag von </b>Leora Morgenstern<b><br>
> Gesendet:</b> Montag, 25. August 2008 14:30<b><br>
> An:</b> Stella Mitchell<b><br>
> Cc:</b> public-rif-wg@w3.org<b><br>
> Betreff:</b> Re: [RIF Test Cases] Abridged Presentation syntax</font>
> <br><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"> </font>
> <br><font size=3D2 face=3D"sans-serif"><br>
> You're right, Stella! I had missed that. Thanks for pointing it out.</font>=
> <font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman">
> <br>
> </font><font size=3D2 face=3D"sans-serif"><br>
> In any case, those are easy to fix, and less of an issue than the abbreviat=
> ions
> listed in the table.</font><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"> <br>
> </font><font size=3D2 face=3D"sans-serif"><br>
> Leora</font><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"> <br>
> <br>
> </font>
> <p>
> <table width=3D100%>
> <tr valign=3Dtop>
> <td width=3D33%><font size=3D1 face=3D"sans-serif"><b>Stella Mitchell/Watso=
> n/IBM</b></font><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman">
> </font>
> <p><font size=3D1 face=3D"sans-serif">08/25/2008 08:24 AM</font><font size=
> =3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman">
> </font>
> <td width=3D66%>
> <br>
> <table width=3D100%>
> <tr>
> <td width=3D11%>
> <div align=3Dright><font size=3D1 face=3D"sans-serif">To</font></div>
> <td width=3D88% valign=3Dtop><font size=3D1 face=3D"sans-serif">Leora Morge=
> nstern/Watson/IBM</font><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman">
> </font>
> <tr>
> <td>
> <div align=3Dright><font size=3D1 face=3D"sans-serif">cc</font></div>
> <td valign=3Dtop><font size=3D1 face=3D"sans-serif">public-rif-wg@w3.org</f=
> ont><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman">
> </font>
> <tr>
> <td>
> <div align=3Dright><font size=3D1 face=3D"sans-serif">Subject</font></div>
> <td valign=3Dtop><font size=3D1 face=3D"sans-serif">Re: [RIF Test Cases] Ab=
> ridged
> Presentation syntax</font><a href=3DNotes://d01ml604/8525628400714AC0/273A7=
> A30D568140C85256189007C8D6E/D9BEACFD380F32F7852574B000426168><font size=3D3=
> color=3Dblue face=3D"Times New Roman"><u>Link</u></font></a></table>
> <br><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"> </font>
> <p>
> <br>
> <table>
> <tr valign=3Dtop>
> <td><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"> </font>
> <td><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"> </font></table>
> <br></table>
> <br><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><br>
> </font><font size=3D2 face=3D"sans-serif"><br>
> They're listed as part of the abridged presentation syntax, immediately
> below the table.</font><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"> <br>
> </font><font size=3D2 face=3D"sans-serif"><br>
> Stella</font><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"> <br>
> <br>
> </font>
> <p>
> <table width=3D100%>
> <tr valign=3Dtop>
> <td width=3D24%><font size=3D1 face=3D"sans-serif"><b>Leora Morgenstern/Wat=
> son/IBM</b></font><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman">
> </font>
> <p><font size=3D1 face=3D"sans-serif">08/25/2008 08:16 AM</font><font size=
> =3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman">
> </font>
> <td width=3D75%>
> <br>
> <table width=3D100%>
> <tr valign=3Dtop>
> <td width=3D6%>
> <div align=3Dright><font size=3D1 face=3D"sans-serif">To</font></div>
> <td width=3D93%><font size=3D1 face=3D"sans-serif">Stella Mitchell/Watson/I=
> BM@IBMUS</font><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman">
> </font>
> <tr valign=3Dtop>
> <td>
> <div align=3Dright><font size=3D1 face=3D"sans-serif">cc</font></div>
> <td><font size=3D1 face=3D"sans-serif">"Adrian Paschke" <Adria=
> n.Paschke@gmx.de>,
> "Hassan A=EFt-Kaci" <hak@ilog.com>, public-rif-wg@w3.org</f=
> ont><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman">
> </font>
> <tr valign=3Dtop>
> <td>
> <div align=3Dright><font size=3D1 face=3D"sans-serif">Subject</font></div>
> <td><font size=3D1 face=3D"sans-serif">Re: [RIF Test Cases] Abridged Presen=
> tation
> syntax</font><a href=3DNotes://d01ml604/852562BC00019472/5E502A1BAAAF40CA85=
> 256197006C1A32/6364A3D92B728D5A852574AE003DED6D><font size=3D3 color=3Dblue=
> face=3D"Times New Roman"><u>Link</u></font></a></table>
> <br><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"> </font>
> <p>
> <br>
> <table>
> <tr valign=3Dtop>
> <td><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"> </font>
> <td><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"> </font></table>
> <br></table>
> <br><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><br>
> </font><font size=3D2 face=3D"sans-serif"><br>
> Stella,</font><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"> </font><font size=3D=
> 2 face=3D"sans-serif"><br>
> </font><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"> </font><font size=3D2=
> face=3D"sans-serif"><br>
> >The syntax left in UCR that is not official PS syntax is:</font><font s=
> ize=3D2 face=3D"Times New Roman">
> </font><font size=3D2 face=3D"sans-serif"><br>
> > - shortcuts for external functions & predicates</font><font size=
> =3D2 face=3D"Times New Roman">
> </font><font size=3D2 face=3D"sans-serif"><br>
> > - can leave out "And" and conjuction is assumed</font><font=
> size=3D2 face=3D"Times New Roman">
> </font><font size=3D2 face=3D"sans-serif"><br>
> >- can leave out Forall for rules with variables and assume variables
> are quantified <br>
> > - denoting the end of a rule with a period</font><font size=3D2 face=
> =3D"Times New Roman">
> </font><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><br>
> </font><font size=3D2 face=3D"sans-serif"><br>
> The last three are actually not even part of the Abridged Presentation
> Syntax, and do not figure in Adrian's table mapping Abridged Presentation
> Syntax to Presentation Syntax. They are just conventions that are frequently
> used in logical formalizations/ logic programming, and have crept into
> some of the examples. It is easy to fix the examples so that these aren't
> used, and I agree that we should do so. </font><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times=
> New Roman"><br>
> </font><font size=3D2 face=3D"sans-serif"><br>
> Regarding the first: I agree also that it would be best to have one unified
> convention for shortcuts. While we are revisiting the BLD syntax, as Adrian
> suggested, in order to formalize various open issues. it would be worthwhile
> discussing whether we should integrate some of the shortcuts of the Abbrevi=
> ated
> Presentation Syntax into the shortcuts already defined in the BLD document.
> </font><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><br>
> </font><font size=3D2 face=3D"sans-serif"><br>
> Leora</font><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"> <br>
> </font>
> <p>
> <table width=3D100%>
> <tr valign=3Dtop>
> <td width=3D30%><font size=3D1 face=3D"sans-serif"><b>Stella Mitchell/Watso=
> n/IBM@IBMUS</b>
> <br>
> Sent by: public-rif-wg-request@w3.org</font><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times Ne=
> w Roman">
> </font>
> <p><font size=3D1 face=3D"sans-serif">08/23/2008 07:20 AM</font><font size=
> =3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman">
> </font>
> <td width=3D69%>
> <br>
> <table width=3D100%>
> <tr>
> <td width=3D7%>
> <div align=3Dright><font size=3D1 face=3D"sans-serif">To</font></div>
> <td width=3D92% valign=3Dtop><font size=3D1 face=3D"sans-serif">"Adria=
> n Paschke"
> <Adrian.Paschke@gmx.de></font><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman">
> </font>
> <tr>
> <td>
> <div align=3Dright><font size=3D1 face=3D"sans-serif">cc</font></div>
> <td valign=3Dtop><font size=3D1 face=3D"sans-serif">"Hassan A=EFt-Kaci=
> "
> <hak@ilog.com>, public-rif-wg@w3.org, public-rif-wg-request@w3.org</f=
> ont><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman">
> </font>
> <tr>
> <td>
> <div align=3Dright><font size=3D1 face=3D"sans-serif">Subject</font></div>
> <td valign=3Dtop><font size=3D1 face=3D"sans-serif">Re: [RIF Test Cases] Ab=
> ridged
> Presentation syntax</font></table>
> <br><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"> </font>
> <p>
> <br>
> <table>
> <tr valign=3Dtop>
> <td><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"> </font>
> <td><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"> </font></table>
> <br></table>
> <br><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><br>
> <br>
> </font><font size=3D3 face=3D"sans-serif"><br>
> <br>
> Adrian,</font><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"> </font><font size=3D=
> 3 face=3D"sans-serif"><br>
> <br>
> As I mentioned several times during our internal discussions, it would
> be</font><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"> </font><font size=3D3 fac=
> e=3D"sans-serif"><br>
> good to reconcile with the shortcuts defined for BLD PS.</font><font size=
> =3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman">
> </font><font size=3D3 face=3D"sans-serif"><br>
> <br>
> In your UCR abridged presentation syntax table [2], rows <br>
> 1, 2, 3, 5, 6 and 7 are redundant with the shortcuts in DTB
> [1].</font><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"> </font><font size=3D3 f=
> ace=3D"sans-serif"><br>
> <br>
> Row 4 is about text with a language tag. Axel currently has a proposal
> for</font><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"> </font><font size=3D3 fa=
> ce=3D"sans-serif"><br>
> a shortcut for this in [3].</font><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman">
> </font><font size=3D3 face=3D"sans-serif"><br>
> <br>
> The syntax left in UCR that is not official PS syntax is:</font><font size=
> =3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman">
> </font><font size=3D3 face=3D"sans-serif"><br>
> - shortcuts for external functions & predicates</font><font size=
> =3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman">
> </font><font size=3D3 face=3D"sans-serif"><br>
> - can leave out "And" and conjuction is assumed</font><fon=
> t size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman">
> </font><font size=3D3 face=3D"sans-serif"><br>
> - can leave out Forall for rules with variables and assume variables
> are quantified <br>
> - denoting the end of a rule with a period</font><font size=3D3 face=
> =3D"Times New Roman">
> </font><font size=3D3 face=3D"sans-serif"><br>
> </font><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"> </font><font size=3D=
> 3 face=3D"sans-serif"><br>
> For the (BLD) test cases, I think we should stay with normative BLD syntax,=
> </font><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman">
> </font><font size=3D3 face=3D"sans-serif"><br>
> and only use shortcuts that the group agrees to add to that syntax.</font><=
> font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman">
> </font><font size=3D3 face=3D"sans-serif"><br>
> <br>
> Stella</font><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"> <br>
> </font><font size=3D2 face=3D"sans-serif"><br>
> <br>
> [1] </font><a href=3Dhttp://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/DTB#Shortcuts=5Ffor=
> =5FConstants=5Fin=5FRIF.27s=5FPresentation=5FSyntax><font size=3D2 color=3D=
> blue face=3D"sans-serif"><u>http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/DTB#Shortcuts=
> =5Ffor=5FConstants=5Fin=5FRIF.27s=5FPresentation=5FSyntax</u></font></a><fo=
> nt size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman">
> </font><font size=3D2 face=3D"sans-serif"><br>
> <br>
> [2] </font><a href=3Dhttp://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/UCR#Use=5FCases><fon=
> t size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3D"sans-serif"><u>http://www.w3.org/2005/rules=
> /wiki/UCR#Use=5FCases</u></font></a><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman">
> </font><font size=3D2 face=3D"sans-serif"><br>
> <br>
> [3] </font><a href=3D"http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/200=
> 8Aug/0074.html"><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3D"sans-serif"><u>http://l=
> ists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2008Aug/0074.html</u></font></a><=
> font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman">
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> </font>
> <p>
> <table width=3D100%>
> <tr valign=3Dtop>
> <td width=3D47%><font size=3D1 face=3D"sans-serif"><b>"Adrian Paschke&=
> quot;
> <Adrian.Paschke@gmx.de></b> <br>
> Sent by: public-rif-wg-request@w3.org</font><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times Ne=
> w Roman">
> </font>
> <p><font size=3D1 face=3D"sans-serif">08/23/2008 05:24 AM</font><font size=
> =3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman">
> </font>
> <td width=3D52%><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"> </font>
> <p>
> <br>
> <table width=3D100%>
> <tr valign=3Dtop>
> <td width=3D12%>
> <div align=3Dright><font size=3D1 face=3D"sans-serif">To</font></div>
> <td width=3D87%><font size=3D1 face=3D"sans-serif">"Hassan A=EFt-Kaci&=
> quot;
> <hak@ilog.com></font><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"> </font>
> <tr valign=3Dtop>
> <td>
> <div align=3Dright><font size=3D1 face=3D"sans-serif">cc</font></div>
> <td><font size=3D1 face=3D"sans-serif">public-rif-wg@w3.org</font><font siz=
> e=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman">
> </font>
> <tr valign=3Dtop>
> <td>
> <div align=3Dright><font size=3D1 face=3D"sans-serif">Subject</font></div>
> <td><font size=3D1 face=3D"sans-serif">Re: [RIF Test Cases] Abridged Presen=
> tation
> syntax</font></table>
> <br><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"> </font>
> <p>
> <br>
> <table>
> <tr valign=3Dtop>
> <td><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"> </font>
> <td><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"> </font></table>
> <br></table>
> <br><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><br>
> <br>
> </font><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><br>
> <br>
> <br>
> H Hassan,<br>
> <br>
> > <br>
> > Hi Adrian,<br>
> > <br>
> > I appreciate the motivation you invoke for introducing an Abridged<br>
> > Presentation Syntax (APS). This makes an APS expression an abbreviatio=
> n<br>
> > of a PS expression, itself an abbreviation for the normative XML synta=
> x.<br>
> > In DTB, Axel Polleres already defined abbreviations (although formally=
> :<br>
> > </font><a href=3Dhttp://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/DTB#Shortcuts=5Ffor=
> =5FConstants=5Fin=5FRIF.27s=5FPresentation=5FSyntax><font size=3D2 color=3D=
> blue face=3D"Courier New"><u>http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/DTB#Shortcut=
> s=5Ffor=5FConstants=5Fin=5FRIF.27s=5FPresentation=5FSyntax</u></font></a><f=
> ont size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New">)<br>
> > and he used them for the examples of the DTB document. My question
> is,<br>
> > are the abridged forms for DTB consistent with those your introduce<br>
> > in </font><a href=3Dhttp://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/UCR#Use=5FCases?=
> ><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3D"Courier New"><u>http://www.w3.org/2005=
> /rules/wiki/UCR#Use=5FCases?</u></font></a><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier N=
> ew">
> If not, can it be<br>
> > made so? If so, could the two be specified formally along the rest
> of<br>
> > the EBNF rules for BLD Rules and BLD Conditions? <br>
> <br>
> Thanks for the hint - didn't know about the new abridged syntax in DTB.
> At the time when we specified the abridged presentation syntax (actually
> it was you and Harold who started it) for UCR, there was nothing in DTB.
> <br>
> <br>
> Will check if both are consistent or something is missing in DTB. Moreover,
> I will then simply link to DTB for the syntax of examples in UCR.<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> >Currently Axel's rules<br>
> > are hyperlinked to where they are defined in other W3C documents all<b=
> r>
> > over the place as an extension of the original BLD EBNF. It would
> be<br>
> > good to put together somewhere the complete set of lexical and syntact=
> ic<br>
> > EBNF rules for the real PS as it is actually used in *all* RIF documen=
> ts<br>
> > (whether UCR, Core, BLD, DTB, PRD, ...). <br>
> <br>
> Yes, agree. I think it is now time to review again the full and abriged
> presentation syntax, complete it, and solve open issues. For instance,
> I remember the ":-" or "=3D>" question for rules pre=
> sentation.
> <br>
> <br>
> We need final versions to update the examples in UCR, PRD, Core, ... and
> Test Cases.<br>
> <br>
> >That would surely help *me* in<br>
> > my task to provide a correct working APS parser to automate generating=
> <br>
> > the serialized XML for of all the examples in these documents <br>
> > (</font><a href=3D"http://www.w3.org/2008/08/19-rif-minutes.html#actio=
> n08"><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3D"Courier New"><u>http://www.w3.org/=
> 2008/08/19-rif-minutes.html#action08</u></font></a><font size=3D2 face=3D"C=
> ourier New">).<br>
> > <br>
> > At any rate, I will be on vacation from tonight through August 31
> and I<br>
> > will resume work on this after I am back.<br>
> <br>
> Enjoy your vacations.<br>
> <br>
> -Adrian<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> > <br>
> > Adrian Paschke wrote:<br>
> > > Hi Jos,<br>
> > > <br>
> > > You asked: <br>
> > > <br>
> > >> In<br>
> > >> addition, it is unclear to me which syntax they use. it is
> certainly<br>
> > not<br>
> > >> valid presentation syntax.<br>
> > > <br>
> > > It is the abridged presentation syntax from UCR<br>
> > > (</font><a href=3Dhttp://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/UCR#Use=5FCas=
> es><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3D"Courier New"><u>http://www.w3.org/20=
> 05/rules/wiki/UCR#Use=5FCases</u></font></a><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier =
> New">)
> which was introduced<br>
> > there<br>
> > > to have a very compact and easy readable human-oriented format.<b=
> r>
> > > <br>
> > > It might be also usable for the test cases to get a quick picture
> what<br>
> > the<br>
> > > rules of the test case are. The full presentation syntax can
> become very<br>
> > > complex, take e.g. the simple example of "?X>=3D (?Y+2)
> " which would be<br>
> > very<br>
> > > long-winded in the full presentation syntax and hard to read
> for a<br>
> > human.<br>
> > > <br>
> > > But you are right; we need full presentation syntax to automatica=
> lly<br>
> > > translate them into the concrete XML syntax. <br>
> > > <br>
> > > Hence, I would propose to describe the test cases in full present=
> ation<br>
> > > syntax in the premises and conclusion field (or alternatively
> already in<br>
> > > concrete XML syntax) and optionally represent them in abridged<br>
> > presentation<br>
> > > syntax together with the narrative description of the test case
> in the<br>
> > > "Description" field. <br>
> > > An alternative would be to have several (optional) premise /
> conclusion<br>
> > > fields which represent the test case in different syntaxes (abrid=
> ge,<br>
> > full,<br>
> > > XML, PRD, BLD, ...).<br>
> > > <br>
> > > - Adrian<br>
> > > <br>
> > > <br>
> > > -----Urspr=FCngliche Nachricht-----<br>
> > > Von: public-rif-wg-request@w3.org [</font><a href=3D"mailto:publi=
> c-rif-wg-request@w3.org"><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3D"Courier New"><=
> u>mailto:public-rif-wg-request@w3.org</u></font></a><font size=3D2 face=3D"=
> Courier New">]<br>
> > Im<br>
> > > Auftrag von Jos de Bruijn<br>
> > > Gesendet: Donnerstag, 21. August 2008 15:46<br>
> > > An: Chris Welty<br>
> > > Cc: Public-Rif-Wg (E-mail)<br>
> > > Betreff: Re: Call for test cases<br>
> > > <br>
> > > <br>
> > > <br>
> > >> Below are instructions to create new test cases on the WIKI.
> The test<br>
> > >> cases will be automatically classified into the category
> of the used<br>
> > >> template and the specified dialect. We probably might need
> more<br>
> > >> templates (categories) later, as described here<br>
> > >> </font><a href=3Dhttp://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Test#Categ=
> ories=5Fof=5FRIF=5FTest=5FCases><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3D"Courier=
> New"><u>http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Test#Categories=5Fof=5FRIF=5FTes=
> t=5FCases</u></font></a><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><br>
> > >><br>
> > >> But let's start simple first and collect positive entailment
> tests<br>
> > which<br>
> > >> demonstrate BLD and DTB.<br>
> > >><br>
> > >> The properties of the templates for test cases are described
> here<br>
> > >> </font><a href=3Dhttp://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Test=5FCas=
> e=5FFormat><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3D"Courier New"><u>http://www.w=
> 3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Test=5FCase=5FFormat</u></font></a><font size=3D2 fac=
> e=3D"Courier New"><br>
> > > <br>
> > > The page lacks descriptions of the properties Text and Format
> and<br>
> > > guidelines about how to format the title.<br>
> > > Then, it is not very clear to me what the difference is between
> the<br>
> > > properties Purpose and Description.<br>
> > > <br>
> > >> Some example test cases for BLD (positive entailment test
> cases) can be<br>
> > >> found here<br>
> > >><br>
> > >> </font><a href=3Dhttp://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Test=5FCas=
> e=5FOrdered=5FRelations><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3D"Courier New"><u=
> >http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Test=5FCase=5FOrdered=5FRelations</u></f=
> ont></a><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><br>
> > >> </font><a href=3Dhttp://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Test=5FCas=
> e=5FUnordered=5FRelations><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3D"Courier New">=
> <u>http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Test=5FCase=5FUnordered=5FRelations</u=
> ></font></a><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><br>
> > >> </font><a href=3Dhttp://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Test=5FCas=
> e=5FFrames><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3D"Courier New"><u>http://www.w=
> 3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Test=5FCase=5FFrames</u></font></a><font size=3D2 fac=
> e=3D"Courier New"><br>
> > >> </font><a href=3Dhttp://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Test=5FCas=
> e=5FEquality><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3D"Courier New"><u>http://www=
> .w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Test=5FCase=5FEquality</u></font></a><font size=3D2=
> face=3D"Courier New"><br>
> > > <br>
> > > All the examples like the required properties title and purpose.
> In<br>
> > > addition, it is unclear to me which syntax they use. it is certai=
> nly
> not<br>
> > > valid presentation syntax.<br>
> > > <br>
> > > <br>
> > > I tried to write a test case (a negative entailment test), but
> I was not<br>
> > > sure whether it is in the correct format. Please check:<br>
> > > </font><a href=3Dhttp://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Test=5FCase=5F=
> Local=5FConstant><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3D"Courier New"><u>http:/=
> /www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Test=5FCase=5FLocal=5FConstant</u></font></a><f=
> ont size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><br>
> > > <br>
> > > <br>
> > > Best, Jos<br>
> > > <br>
> > > <br>
> > > <br>
> > > <br>
> > > <br>
> > <br>
> > <br>
> > -- <br>
> > Hassan A=EFt-Kaci * ILOG, Inc. - Product Division R&D<=
> br>
> > </font><a href=3Dhttp://koala.ilog.fr/wiki/bin/view/Main/HassanAitKaci=
> ><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3D"Courier New"><u>http://koala.ilog.fr/w=
> iki/bin/view/Main/HassanAitKaci</u></font></a><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courie=
> r New"><br>
> > <br>
> <br>
> -- <br>
> Ist Ihr Browser Vista-kompatibel? Jetzt die neuesten <br>
> Browser-Versionen downloaden: </font><a href=3Dhttp://www.gmx.net/de/go/bro=
> wser><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3D"Courier New"><u>http://www.gmx.net=
> /de/go/browser</u></font></a><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><br>
> <br>
> <br>
> </font>
> <br>
> --=_alternative 00708F94852574B0_=--
Received on Tuesday, 26 August 2008 08:54:14 UTC